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Your experience with current 40+ balls

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Topic: Your experience with current 40+ balls
Posted By: Rich215
Subject: Your experience with current 40+ balls
Date Posted: 09/06/2014 at 1:37pm
I have been playing for several weeks now with the Double Fish 3* 40+ balls.   Seem pretty close to the DHS made balls and the other re-labeled balls from Joola, Donic, Nittaku SHA, and others. 

I have grown to accept this new type of ball (though I did make a blade change to something slightly stiffer and heavier), and only hope with slight tweaking of the plastic material .....it will get somewhat better for sound, feel, and like performance to the old ball...or at least as much as possible where it stands now from the current Chinese ones. 

Lets see what happens with the release of the Nittaku 40+ premium ones.  I am also curious to try the XSF softer version of the 40+ single piece ball.    I did not understand wording from XSF  or now XSF Sports about which version of the single piece ball they have with 2 diff logos is which.  Reading the wording they produced said one of the ITTF approved labeled balls is slightly softer.  

Anyone have any experience with the 2 current labeled XSF/XSF Sports 40+ balls?


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Replies:
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/06/2014 at 3:43pm
I have played with nearly every one of the 40+ balls you can buy in the US, and also one that is not yet generally sold, I havnn't used a celluloid ball in over a month now. 

I have played with all three XSF 40+ balls currently sold.  They are all pretty good, actually I am not sure there is a consistent difference between them, but one of my playing partners prefers the two black labeled ones to the red labeled one (that is not ITTF approved but is 3 star).  There is no difference whatsoever between the two black labeled XSF ones that have ITTF logo.  I think all of these are much better than any of the seamed Chinese polyballs.  So you might as well use the ITTF approved ones, which are sold at Pingpong Depot.  The other advantage is that they are cheaper than any of the seamed balls, and I think they are also rounder. 

I think the DF (and also the TSP which is made by DF) are quite similar to the DHS balls (who also make Joola, Nittaku SHA, Stiga, Donic, etc.), although I think I prefer DHS by small margin, but really I don't like any of the balls in that group.  The main difference between the seamed balls and the XSF balls is that the seamed balls bounce is lower than celluloid and they feel heavier and that makes them harder to play with and more different from celluloid.  XSF balls bounce closer to celluloid than any of the seamed balls that are manufactured in China, and they play better.  (Actually, their bounce is slightly higher than celluloid).  Everybody at my club who has tried them, including 2500+ level players, prefers the XSF balls.  So far, we have only had a chance to try one Nittaku Japan 40+ polyball.  It is probably the only one in the city!!!!  It bounces similarly to the XSF even though it is seamed. Everyone who has tried it likes it, but we will know more next month when they are finally available on the market.  The Nittaku Premium 40+ will be expensive.

All of the 40+ balls, regardless of bounce or hardness, are a little slower, have less spin, and sometimes curve more in the air.  But the ones with a better bounce will mess up your timing less.  The XSF balls seem to have adequate durability but when they break, they completely fracture.  The Joola balls I bought, made by DHS, broke right and left.


Posted By: Jinami
Date Posted: 09/06/2014 at 4:11pm
I'm just going to share my initial experience with regards to the durability. So far I've tried one Nittaku SHA 40+ ball from China with a coworker. He joined the company recently and ever since we've been experiencing a higher rate of balls breaking because of the unreasonable amount of force he uses when he smashes. 

Anyway, the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball broke in about 5 minutes of play. In comparison, the celluloid balls tend to break after 3-5 days of playing with him, where each day lasts about 15-20 minutes.


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JOOLA Viva - DHS Skyline TG3 Neo / JOOLA Rhyzm
Xiom Zetro Quad - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo / Butterfly Tenergy 80


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/06/2014 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Jinami Jinami wrote:

I'm just going to share my initial experience with regards to the durability. So far I've tried one Nittaku SHA 40+ ball from China with a coworker. He joined the company recently and ever since we've been experiencing a higher rate of balls breaking because of the unreasonable amount of force he uses when he smashes. 

Anyway, the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball broke in about 5 minutes of play. In comparison, the celluloid balls tend to break after 3-5 days of playing with him, where each day lasts about 15-20 minutes.


Yes, that is happening here too.


Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 6:11am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Jinami Jinami wrote:

I'm just going to share my initial experience with regards to the durability. So far I've tried one Nittaku SHA 40+ ball from China with a coworker. He joined the company recently and ever since we've been experiencing a higher rate of balls breaking because of the unreasonable amount of force he uses when he smashes. 

Anyway, the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball broke in about 5 minutes of play. In comparison, the celluloid balls tend to break after 3-5 days of playing with him, where each day lasts about 15-20 minutes.


Yes, that is happening here too.
 
That is exactly why I will hide my new balls if the opponent is a hard hitter. Smile


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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback


Posted By: SolidEvolution
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 10:50am
Originally posted by Jinami Jinami wrote:

Anyway, the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball broke in about 5 minutes of play. In comparison, the celluloid balls tend to break after 3-5 days of playing with him, where each day lasts about 15-20 minutes.

I bought some Artengo FB800 1*, 40mm. Managed to lodge one between two wooden panels.
Dented but didn't break, and I'm pretty sure I put more then enough pressure on it to destroy one of the old balls I had.
Seems to be a nice ball, compared to the double fish 2*'s I had laying around.

Keep in mind Decathlon sells the donic/nittaku balls, so these might actually be a good deal somehow, if nobody else is making them, then that must be what they are selling cheap right?


Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Jinami Jinami wrote:

Anyway, the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball broke in about 5 minutes of play. In comparison, the celluloid balls tend to break after 3-5 days of playing with him, where each day lasts about 15-20 minutes.

Yes, that is happening here too.


Which means for the same playing time we would need like 25 plastic balls instead of 1 celluloid ball.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 11:15am
Only for hard smashers and not if you are using the seamless or the Nittaku Premium 40+, if comments are to be believed.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Mastermind Mastermind wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Jinami Jinami wrote:

Anyway, the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball broke in about 5 minutes of play. In comparison, the celluloid balls tend to break after 3-5 days of playing with him, where each day lasts about 15-20 minutes.

Yes, that is happening here too.


Which means for the same playing time we would need like 25 plastic balls instead of 1 celluloid ball.


Bad but not anywhere near that bad. Still, I cannot recommend them to anyone.  The durability of XSF quite reasonable*, much better than DHS or Nittaku SHA.  I don't think anyone knows yet what the durability of the Nittaku Premium will be. 

*I don't like to use celluloid balls when they get used enough to be shiny, except for serving practice and multiball, even if they are not broken.  I have had two XSF balls break in points. 


Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 12:04pm
And how is XSF compared to Palio seamless?

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Life is too short for defensive play.

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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Ray Ray wrote:

And how is XSF compared to Palio seamless?


Sorry, I haven't tried Palio.  I think their balls are made by XSF because according to ITTF there are currently only five factories making polyballs--three in China -- and only one of the Chinese companies makes a seamless ball -- XSF.  The thing is, though, that even a few months ago, the XSF balls were a lot worse than the ones they sell now, and I don't know which version is being sold under Palio label.

Later there will be a German seamless ball sold by a company called Weener.


Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 3:47pm
They're not round not durable and there is less spin so it's not that exiting. BUT quality will get better and better. It's easier to play with so rallies will be longer so we will enjoy that. You don't have to change your gear. Maybe a little bit faster blade or boosting will be enough.

Not that bad. I would like to play with the old balls but I'm not gonna quit playing...

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Nittaku Tenaly Acoustic Inner Carbon
Joola Rhyzer Pro 50 & 45




Posted By: nachalnik
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 8:46pm
Nittaku lasts for 1-1.5 hours. Horrible durability! Plays pretty well, though...


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 10:21pm
SPECIAL SELECTION BALLS NOT AVAILABLE FOR A COMMON PLAYER.

While watching the latest Chech Open I did not see a single one ball destroyed.
I would pay dearly for the possibility to obtain any ball as now supplied by DHS for ITTF events, and survey it throughout.
I suspect very strongly DHS has established a special ball selection.
The balls to be distributed for ITTF pro events are better quality than those one can find on a casual marketplace,
I would bet my dear petty privates that the 'special selection' balls are softer and ligher a little bit..


Posted By: rliu
Date Posted: 09/07/2014 at 10:27pm
Speed and spin of the Nittaku Premium is very very similar too our current Nittaku Premium. However, bounce is a bit lower but not too bad. It is very durable and haven't broke one in a month of use.

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Blade: Hurricane King 655
Rubber: Fastarc-G1


Posted By: Deepak3
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 2:08am
I have experience of playing with XSF balls (the red marking ones) for the past 4 months. Contrary to what people are saying that these ball are less durable than celluloid, my experience has been the opposite. The XSF balls last and last and last. We have started calling them superballs as they are capable of taking extreme punishment. Just to give you an idea, we have been able to play 24 to 30 hours with a single ball and that too at a very high intensity!!! We sometimes discuss that this honeymoon will not last as manufacturers will start making balls that break easily for commercial reasons.
 
Regarding playing charateristics, i find them much better and easier to play with. The ball is a bit heavier and bigger than celluloid and bites into the rubber much better (maybe because of the different plastic material). It displays better arc and is so much more easier to rally with. When I play with the Nittaku now, I feel it to be quite flimsy. Also in humid conditions when the ball is moist, Nittaku is almost unplayable. Not so with XSF.
 
Overall I am all for the new plastic ball (the XSF one that is). I dont know about other plastic balls being used.
 
Deepak.


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Butterfly Joyner H-II
Andro Rasant Turbo Max (FH)
Andro Rasant Turbo Max (BH)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLcTsoaqEw4 (the one in yellow is me)



Posted By: Deepak3
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 2:09am
Missed out onething - out of 6 balls, 2 or 3 turn out to be a bit wobbly and not completely spherical. But then i think this will get sorted over time.
 
Deepak.


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Butterfly Joyner H-II
Andro Rasant Turbo Max (FH)
Andro Rasant Turbo Max (BH)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLcTsoaqEw4 (the one in yellow is me)



Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 4:00am
The black label ittf approved XSF 3 stars are much better improved in roundness.

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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 7:12am
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

SPECIAL SELECTION BALLS NOT AVAILABLE FOR A COMMON PLAYER.

While watching the latest Chech Open I did not see a single one ball destroyed.
I would pay dearly for the possibility to obtain any ball as now supplied by DHS for ITTF events, and survey it throughout.
I suspect very strongly DHS has established a special ball selection.
The balls to be distributed for ITTF pro events are better quality than those one can find on a casual marketplace,
I would bet my dear petty privates that the 'special selection' balls are softer and ligher a little bit..

You need to watch better or get your eyes checked.  Balls broke at least twice when I was watching, the most memorable one on Kristian Karlsson's wonderful backhand drive to win a game vs. Samsonov.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Crowsfeather
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 9:18am
Donic 40+ 3 stars

Obviously having a bigger circumference by 0.5 mm
Less bounce. A Bit heavier
I felt a little slower on regular shot.
Definitly slower on full stroke. Easier to rally.
Spin generating is a bit less
but when land on the other side, the spin of the ball effects the off-bounce trajectory.


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I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .


Posted By: Crowsfeather
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 9:20am
Another thing, I think it is really fragile.
My friends and I already broke 3 balls in the past 2 weeks

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I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 12:57pm
Agree with many of the last posts.  Yes, black XSF balls are rounder than the red ones.  If the Donic balls are same as Joola (both are made by DHS) what crowfeather sees is very typical.

By the way, I agree with overall durability of XSF being pretty good.  My comment is that when they do fail they fail all at once and there is no doubt about it.

Six months ago I would never have believed that the seamless ball would be the best one, but at the moment the conclusion is quite clear to me (afte having put quite a bit of money and time into buying and trying various polyballs), and I think the XSF black label balls are better in every way by a large margin.  Right now, they are the only balls I am using.


Posted By: spinitgood
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 3:22pm
I finally decided to get my own set of new balls. I got the Stiga Optimum 40+ 3*. They are not as bad as what most comments seem to suggest. It is true that they sound like cracked celluloid balls, and that they are a bit heavier and bounce less. But it did not take much to adjust and rally nicely.

The only striking thing really is that they are much brighter than the celluloid balls. Could it be that this is the reason why ITTF decided to switch? They'd be easier to see on TV, not so much because of the size but rather because of how shiny they are?


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Rasant Grip max on FH,Rasant powersponge max on BH
Glued on a Ross Leidy custom blade - mahogany mahogany spruce mahogany mahogany


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by spinitgood spinitgood wrote:

I finally decided to get my own set of new balls. I got the Stiga Optimum 40+ 3*. They are not as bad as what most comments seem to suggest. It is true that they sound like cracked celluloid balls, and that they are a bit heavier and bounce less. But it did not take much to adjust and rally nicely.

The only striking thing really is that they are much brighter than the celluloid balls. Could it be that this is the reason why ITTF decided to switch? They'd be easier to see on TV, not so much because of the size but rather because of how shiny they are?


The issues with the balls do not show up when hitting back and forth. They are more pronounced during random rallies and when playing over the table offensive shots.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 09/08/2014 at 11:59pm
I've done a detailed http://tabletennis-reviews.com/nittaku-plastic-40-table-tennis-ball-review" rel="nofollow - review of the Nittaku 40+ ball here (made in China), for anyone that might be interested. Embarrassed

In a nut shell, they are a little slower and less spinny (for loops) compared to celluloid balls, but they are a lot better than the earlier seamless balls I've tried. Spin on serves and chops seemed as good as celluloid, but on loops there appeared to be less curve and spin, making it easier to block. The balls do seem to grab less on the rubber, making it easier for blocking and hitting.
These were the finding of a group of players (including myself) from our club, where we spend a few hours comparing.
I did notice that they become shiny a lot quicker, but I'm not sure if this affects their performance as yet.




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Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX
http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles


Posted By: Deepak3
Date Posted: 09/09/2014 at 1:39am
Just a small correction from my side - the XSF balls have lasted me about 15 to 20 hours and not 24 to 30 that I wrote in my previous posts (i miscalculated something and it came to me a bit later). But even this is way more than nittaku balls.

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Butterfly Joyner H-II
Andro Rasant Turbo Max (FH)
Andro Rasant Turbo Max (BH)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLcTsoaqEw4 (the one in yellow is me)



Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 09/27/2014 at 11:39pm
The new plastic balls are already used in ITTF events as of 01 July 2014.

See below some information (from earlier this year) on this:

1.      Plastic balls will be used at ITTF Sanctioned events from 1st July 2014 (reference: ITTF BoD decision 2012)
2.      As an exception celluloid balls will be used at the 2014 Youth Olympic Games (reference: ITTF OPC decision 2014) and at four (4) ITTF Junior Circuit events taking place after 1st July 2014 but before the 2014 YOG (reference: ITTF EC decision 2014)
 
Here is the list of the four (4) ITTF Junior Circuit events exceptionally using celluloid balls in the period between 1st July and 15th August 2014:
-        2014 Korean Junior & Cadet Open, 30 July - 3 August
-        2014 Hong Kong Junior & Cadet Open, 6-10 August
-        2014 Guatemala Junior & Cadet Open, 6-9 August
-        2014 El Salvador Junior & Cadet Open, 12-15 August
 
Note and clarification: 2014 Chengdu Junior & Cadet Open (30 June-4 July) will have celluloid balls, because it starts BEFORE the implementation date.  
 
Here is the list of the ITTF event types where plastic balls will be used after 1st July 2014:
-        World Table Tennis Championships
-        World Junior Table Tennis Championships
-        World Cups (Men’s, Women’s and World Team Cup)
-        World Tour events including the World Tour Grand Finals
-        Global Junior Circuit events including the GJC Finals – except 4 tournaments specified in 2014
-        World Cadet Challenge
-        ITTF-Continental Championships and ITTF-Continental Cups
-        Olympic Games including qualification tournaments
-        Youth Olympic Games including qualification tournaments – except 2014 YOG
 
All the other tournament organisers can use any ITTF approved balls, plastic or celluloid. 


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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 1:39am
the new Nexy 40+ polyballs are very good. looks seamless but the quality fo the bounce is a bit higher than the dhs 40+, also very durable and feels less plastic


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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 1:47am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

the new Nexy 40+ polyballs are very good. looks seamless but the quality fo the bounce is a bit higher than the dhs 40+, also very durable and feels less plastic

+1

I really like the Nexy 3-star Poly Ball. After a couple dozen rallies I forgot I was using a 40+ ball. The six-pack I have looks seamless. Great job, Nexy!


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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: Roger Stillabower
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 10:53am
Where are the Nexy 3-star Poly Ball made at ?

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Shifter


Posted By: Roger Stillabower
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 11:01am
Ah, I see they are made in China. By, DHS,DF, or by the company that makes the seamless balls in China ?

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Shifter


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Roger Stillabower Roger Stillabower wrote:

Where are the Nexy 3-star Poly Ball made at ?

Not sure. Either Korea or China is my guess, but those are only guesses.


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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 9:37pm
Nexy 40+ are seamless and made in China, hence they must be made in XSF factory (as with Palio balls).  That means they are probably excellent balls with good roundness, good durability, and most importantly, a bounce like celluloid.  I very much hope other companies will start using XSF to produce their balls.  It is a high quality product as many people here have noticed.


Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 10:00pm
Based on the plastic ball being heavier, would people who have played with plastic balls say that the impact is harder and that the plastic ball is worse for people suffering from tennis elbow?


Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by ttTurkey ttTurkey wrote:

Based on the plastic ball being heavier, would people who have played with plastic balls say that the impact is harder and that the plastic ball is worse for people suffering from tennis elbow?
...or from rotator cuff problems?


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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2014 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by ttTurkey ttTurkey wrote:

Based on the plastic ball being heavier, would people who have played with plastic balls say that the impact is harder and that the plastic ball is worse for people suffering from tennis elbow?


My guess is that they will not so much a problem for elbow because the weight is really very little different.  People with rotator cuff issues could have more problems is they are trying to loop with heavy spin because the larger diameter tempts you to swing harder in an effort to get more spin, and these 40+ balls punish you if you don't get good body rotation.  (But you have a little more time to do it).


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/29/2014 at 8:03am
Just as Baal said, the issue is really if you want to play exactly the same way as you did with the old ball. If you do, you will need to get fitter. Most people will adjust by playing a bit closer to the table and relying less on spin and more on speed - not dissimilar to what I heard happened when the 38 was replaced with the 40.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 09/30/2014 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Just as Baal said, the issue is really if you want to play exactly the same way as you did with the old ball. If you do, you will need to get fitter. Most people will adjust by playing a bit closer to the table and relying less on spin and more on speed - not dissimilar to what I heard happened when the 38 was replaced with the 40.

+1. i played the same with the new ball though it felt like it drifted more. other ppl were having trouble clearing the net. it might even be better for me as if i miss, it tends to be off the table than into the net :)


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Viscaria
H3N/T05
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami


Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 09/30/2014 at 4:11pm

Durability is an issue right now. Several cracked poly balls on the floor at practice session. At my level ( middle) I felt little difference between the old and new balls other than a slight decrease in spin with the new ball.

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Wood Paddle
Red side
Black side.




Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/30/2014 at 5:13pm
Yet another plug for the seamless polyballs --- no durability problems at all.


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 09/30/2014 at 5:20pm
IMO, the differences between tables, rubbers, blades, and day of the week are more significant then the new ball. A half-way skilled played, like myself, should be able to adjust within a hour of rallying. The pros have been using the ball for months and all is well! The new Nexy 3* ball is quite nice. I prefer the seamless . . . it's like a perfectly formed dumpling.

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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 09/30/2014 at 5:21pm
Companies are already developing and releasing gear to compensate for the new poly ball era!

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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: JKC
Date Posted: 09/30/2014 at 6:18pm
I have some Joola ones. 5/6 are a little wobbly when you spin them on the table, but play fine and seem quite consistent. The 6th one is almost perfectly weighted when spun on the table, but seems a little lighter and more 'cracked' sounding when you hit it or it hits the table. It bounces more inconsistently than the others and occasionally it hardly seems to bounce at all.

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