Best way to transition to 40+ balls
Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Equipment
Forum Name: Equipment
Forum Description: Share your experience and discussions about table tennis equipments.
Moderator: haggisv
Assistant Moderators: position available
URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68759
Printed Date: 05/04/2024 at 6:37am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Best way to transition to 40+ balls
Posted By: Baal
Subject: Best way to transition to 40+ balls
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 1:06pm
|
This topic is for people who have not yet started to play with 40+ balls but plan to do so at some point in the future. Some people will not want to switch at all, but there are some places in the world where even grass roots tournaments and leagues are switching to these balls (for example in several parts of the US), so if that is something you will be facing, this topic is intended for you. My recommendation is based on lots and lots of time with these balls, and most of the different brands currently sold. it is also based on match play, drills, coaching, and watching players at my club of a wide range of levels learn to play with them. My first message is that you should not underestimate how difficult it will be to get truly comfortable with them. My second message is that it's not the end of table tennis as we know it. There are two distinct things you need to get used to to play with the 40+ polyballs. The increased size (with all of them), and the different bounce (with most of them). The increase in size slows down the game and reduces spin in the air and affects trajectory. To get used to that, it doesn't seem to matter which 40+ ball you use because it affects all of them. In time you adjust to this. What differs among the various 40+ balls is bounce height, and (I think) the amount of residual spin remaining after the bounce. That is a second problem. It has a set of affects all its own. One way to approach the new balls is to break the process of getting used to them into two different steps. You can do that by using XSF balls (or the Nittaku Premiums once you can get them) to get used to the increased size (and decreased speed and spin) while still having a normal bounce that is more or less similar to celluloid. After a month, you will have forgotten what it was like with celluloid. Once you have managed that, the Chinese seamed balls will still be a bit tricky because they have a markedly lower and inconsistent bounce (but less so than if you use them right away). However, if you have already figured out how to deal with the size of ball, that part becomes a little easier. So I would recommend starting to play with the XSF balls (a lot cheaper than Nittaku Premium 40+ and available already). Later, you can start playing with whatever seamed balls you will be facing in your competitions and that adjustment will be easier. Pretty much all the seamed Chinese balls are similar in play, although some people like DF best. Of course, if you are like me, you may decide that you have no interest in dealing with the messed up bounce of the Chinese seamed balls on a regular basis, and simply choose to buy the ball you like best. Right now, I think the XSF ITTF-approved ball is best because of durability, roundness, price and bounce. I just got my Nittaku Premiums so will say more later after I have used them more. They have a nice bounce. Tournaments will probably use Chinese seamed balls more (for awhile). And of course, there are places where celluloid continues to be used for all competitions. Time will tell how long that continues. |
Replies:
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 1:10pm
|
One other thing I forgot to mention. Serve practice. You will need to tweak your serving execution and strategies. You will need to really concentrate on keeping serves low, and learning to get your long serves to really go long. This is actually the hardest part of all with these balls, and it can only be done with buckets of balls and practice. For me at least, the 40+ affected this more than any other part of my game. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 2:24pm
|
Baal thanks for the thread. My club has decided to start training with the new balls. My main issue is ordering training balls for multiball practice. In light of that, do you or any of your fellow club members have any experience with the gambler seamless training balls? We usually like to keep about 300 balls or so for training. Are you aware of which company actually manufactures the XSF balls? ------------- DHS 301 Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 2:38pm
|
Sorry, have never tried Gamblers specifically, but I imagine they are like the Ipong balls designed for training. If so, mainly they sound broken and they bounce actually abnormally high, even compared to XSF ITTF-approved. |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 3:31pm
I find the best way is to play games with it, not just practice. I know a lot of people, myself included, say that the new ball is not much different the the old ones, until we start to play game with it  . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 3:35pm
Very very very true. If someone has just looped a few balls while someone blocked it seems pretty easy. The new balls show their strangeness a lot more when you don't know where the ball is going! So as always, a bit of a mix is probably best. Like I said though, spend some time with serving. I still recommend spending some time (a couple of weeks) with high bouncing 40+ balls (such as XSF) and then moving to the low bouncing seamed balls that are more commonly used in competition. |
mhnh007 wrote:Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 3:44pm
|
Another note is that you shouldn't try to play game and make the adjustment to the new ball, unless you fully commit to play the new ball moving forward. I am still not 100% used to the new ball yet, but going back to the old ball is like a nightmare now. |
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 4:23pm
|
Where are people buying the XSF balls? I got a couple boxes coming from eacheng but it would be nice to order in bulk. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 6:45pm
|
I have ordered a bunch from Pingpong Depot (Canada) and also from contra.de (Germany). |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 7:56pm
|
The idea of going from celluloid to seamed plastic via seamless plastic is odd to me, since from the playing properties perspective they are 3 different balls. My personal experience says that there is one property of both seamed and seamless plastic balls you can never adjust to: inconsistent bounce. Seamless XSF disqualified itself for that reason very soon and I did not do further testing, but with the seamed plastic Andro I played just a few rallies first to get a feeling and then a match right away. So, there are essentially 2 things: the ball is slower (which I was able to compensate more or less by changing the strokes a little bit) and the most important f***ing inconsistent bounce, please excuse my French. This 2nd thing is the reason why you get unpredictable spin from your opponent: because he more or less often does not hit the ball properly and that is why you miss even when serving the same service. My impression is that the ball is softer or harder at some places on its surface, that is the reason fot the inconsistency. What a player needs is to adjust to the fact, psychologically. It might sound odd, but constant practicing with this |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 8:14pm
|
OK, you have made your point again. Now do me a favor and stay off this thread so that people with something constructive to offer can weigh in. Really, I am begging you. The first sentence of the opening post was directed at you but you couldn't take the hint. By the way, every good player I have talked to says you need to get used to the balls. It stands to reason, it is the most basic feature of any motor performance. |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 8:28pm
|
There are two types of XSF balls on PingPong Depot: Xushaofa*** plastic seamless (6 balls) Xushaofa*** Sports 40+ plastic seamless (6 balls) Which one do you guys recommend? Thanks. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 8:34pm
This is exactly what I said too, I just formulated it differently. Of course, some people will maybe need 3 minutes to adjust to the slower ball like me, others maybe 10 minutes, this is individual. However, like I said, the most serious problem can not be coped with technically even through extensive practicing with plastic, which is inconsistent bounce. Even if you practice for 100 hours, it will not make the inconsistent bounce consistent. As for who weighs in, I am not pretending to present the ultimate truth here and express only my own practical experience this time, not reports from others. It should be up to the readers to decide which path they follow. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 8:34pm
|
I think they are the same. I am not sure why they have a different price. Anyway, I have tried both and can't see a difference. |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 8:37pm
Baal, I worry about the price of the polyballs that will be used during multiball practice and the rate of breakage more  . that's the dilemma in switching to the polyball------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 8:46pm
|
Yogi, it is a problem. I wouldn't suggest switching at all unless you know that your competitions (or your student's) will be using polyballs in the relatively near future. If not, why you would you spend the money and go through the adjustment? In the US, the US Nationals are going to use Nittaku 40+ of some sort (Premium or so they say) and the North American Teams will use Joola 40+. For some people here, that is a motivation to change. As for seamless balls, I find their durability to be excellent (and their bounce height and consistency too, contrary to some reports). Seamed balls at the moment, durability is clearly a problem along with low bounce and sometimes inconsistent bounce. The point of this whole thread is that after spending a lot of time with seamless balls, I find it much easier to play with 40+ seamed balls, even though I still notice the difference. Like I said, I think it is because I am adjusting to only one thing instead of two. |
Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 10/16/2014 at 10:13pm
|
Aren't the Nittaku Premiums 40+ supposed to be really good? If yes - problem solved (and Nittaku takes the market). If not - we are waiting for ball makers to deliver, and in the meantime use what you like. ------------- (1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 9:57am
Jacek, I have some of the Nittaku Premiums. At first hit, yes, they are good. It seems to me they play more like XSF than DHS but they are a little more solid feeling than XSF, which is good. But they are not yet widely sold (that will change in a month). A big issue moving forward is that they are very expensive (Iruiru charges 864 yen or about $8.95 for a box of three, with an MRP of  1080!!!! That would be almost twice the price of XSF ITTF approved balls!). A second is that durability has been questioned, which would make that price even more insane. (I haven't used them enough to verify that). I suspect they will take the market if they don't break too much but that remains an open issue. So what ball do you use for training purposes if you are trying to make a transition?Again I come back to the good seamless balls like XSF which have very good playing properties and are at the moment the cheapest and are by far the most durable of plastic balls. Of course your last sentence is always true. Use what you like. The point of this thread though is how to best prepare yourself if competitions that will mostly use plastic balls are in your future -- and probably Chinese seamed balls (unfortunately). My suggestion of making the transition in two steps is one based on experience (and it assumes people don't have access to the Nittaku Premiums). |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 11:39am
|
Using the Cell balls, play vs long pip player, since the spin, speed and bounce changes during the game, an inverted player has to adjust. It will simulate a transition to the Poly ball which has less speed spin and a similar bounce sometimes. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 11:59am
I don't agree with this. The primary difference is one of what you decide to practice with and whether your stroke is mostly unconscious or you know how to make racket angle adjustments based on the quality of the ball. If you do, there is no reason why you can't use both as long as you adjust to the shallower bounce. And if you follow Baal's prescription, you will see a logical transition between the balls from celluloid to approved seamless to approved seamed. The continuum I have right now is something like this: Celluloid -> Nittaku Premium -> XSF and clones -> DFish and Clones -> DHS and Clones The spin gets less and the bounce gets lower, though the XSF balls bounce higher than celluloid and the Premiums. Btw, the DFish balls are reasonably durable in my experience. The long pips practice idea is just not well thought out. Of course, there is a similarity, but the ball characteristics are different enough across a spectrum of strokes that long pips practice is insufficient simulation. And of course, playing long pips with the new ball is a new thing altogether. There is less spin on both sides to work with through the air.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 12:05pm
|
Yes, NL, that is pretty much exactly how I see it too. |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 12:42pm
|
Honest to Pete I really can't tell the difference between the two balls other than perhaps a tiny bit of spin loss with the new one. I mix old ball and new ball for drills. I just hit the ball and don't think about it. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 12:46pm
I do the same. However in a match, many of my pushes go long with the new ball. So I just try to close my blade more and lift or push forward more on most strokes. Also, it is harder to loop at a high level player and have the block go off the table so speed, placement and ultimately the commitment to the rally are key. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 1:01pm
Here is some new information on ball weight. Made on a Denver Instruments Analytical Balance shown below at 23 degrees celsius. Nittaku 40+ Premium from Japan (these are unused balls out of the box, manufactured in October of 2014) 2.694 +/- 0.007 XSF 40+ ITTF approved (unused balls out of the box, manufactured in March of 2014) 2.753 +/- 0.004 Butterfly 3 star white celluloid ball (these have been played with quite a bit, I just don't have any new celluloids to compare) 2.74 +/- 0.012 Joola P 40+ (these have been played with, but only once or twice, manufactured in June of 2014) 2.801 +/- 0.008 Obviously the fact that some of these have been used and some are new suggests that maybe the ones that are played with gain weight from stuff they pick up from the table and floor that gets embedded in the surface?? I wiped them off as best as I could before weighing them but still. On the other hand, new balls have powder substance that gets on your rubber when you first use them. I notice this is true for plastic balls as well as celluloid. So the conclusion is in any case that the Nittaku Premium and XSF balls are not particularly heavy, and meet current ITTF standards for weight which allow for a range of 2.67g and 2.77g (for any one ball) and range for sample mean of between 2.69 and 2.76g. It is interesting that Nittaku has managed to achieve a 40+ ball on the low end of that range. XSF is treading a very fine line. (Technically, the rules say that no more than 1 out of 24 balls should fall outside that range. None of my Nittaku missed the range, one of the XSF falls was too heavy, all but one of the Joola balls were too heavy). |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 1:34pm
|
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 1:45pm
|
FWIW, I don't like transitioning back and forth either. Right now i am only using 40+ balls since most people in my club are making that step. |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 1:54pm
|
I ended up ordering some XSF balls from ttnpp.com. Overall they have good price as well as fast shipping. My last order took less than a week to deliver. Again, thanks for all your efforts reviewing all the new balls. I appreciate that. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 3:39pm
|
All I am saying is that there are people who back and forth between the different types with hardly any issue. Once you accept the differences, play less from pure muscl muscle memory, all is largely well. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 4:08pm
|
Its gonna be easier to get 'in', harder to find a window, and another step in the favour of youth/athleticism, over brains. Baal definitely hits the spot with serves.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: JKC
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 7:32pm
|
I played with nothing but new balls for 3 weeks before the league season as Fred had a tournament using them. Got used to them, liked them. Have played with old balls for the last few weeks to play in the league. Next Friday we have a league match with old balls on Friday night and Fred has a tournament on Saturday with new balls. Not really sure how to try to prepare him. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34kRbLNCcpk" rel="nofollow - Fred 49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGShBxEKnDk%20rel=" rel="nofollow - I once could serve |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 9:45pm
| My club is still mostly using celluloid but I'd estimate about a third of the members have tried the poly ball. I've only seen the Nittaku SHA used and that's the only one I've tried. I decided to run a "blind test" to see if anyone would even realize they were playing with a poly. Surprisingly, nobody even said anything or complained despite the fact they were missing shots. It was not psychological. There was one guy however that detected right away that it was a poly. He is usually a more aggressive Chen Weixing type player but right at the warm-up, he knew we were playing poly. He went to a steady rather than aggressive mode right away. So this is one way to adapt, slow your game down and find your put away shots more. I know that's no fun but it'll up your chances of winning. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 10:02pm
|
Has anyone done a detailed review of the butterfly 3* plastic 40+ along with the yasaka 40+ 3*. Both plastic with seams. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 10/17/2014 at 10:11pm
Thank heavens. It's not "cool" to see most clubs being own3d by kill3r grandpas. This will give our young ones a fighting chance, and maybe they will play more TT instead of playing computer games all night because they're saltly from getting owned by a grandpa at the club. It's not too late for you and me to switch to short pips or chess :) Let the young muscles use the expensive Tenergy.
|
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/18/2014 at 11:56am
|
Actually a lot of the players I know who are past their first blush of youth are telling me they like the extra time they have to get in position but they also say they need to get more fit. Kind of a mixed bag. Dreiz, I have not tried one (Btfly 40+). Has it come out yet? If they are made in China, than they will be the same as either DF or DHS. BeaverMD, you don't get used to them right away. At this point now, for me it's just table tennis pretty much with any of them but it's been three months. My advice above is for how to get used to them quicker. |