Hugo CALDERANO x Timo Boll
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Topic: Hugo CALDERANO x Timo Boll
Posted By: 109eh
Subject: Hugo CALDERANO x Timo Boll
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:03pm
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This is the video of the Brazilian player Calderano. He have a great backhand. I think it was the first Timo Boll defeat in the TTBL 2014/2015! ------------- See TT videos on http://www.youtube.com/user/109eh |
Replies:
Posted By: 100niTenis
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:26pm
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For some reason, I would give that point to Boll, before ball broke ? I mean, am I mistaking ? Why would you stop there ? Other guy is the one who can complain if bothered him at that moment, I think. What are your thoughts ? ------------- Blade, Rubbers, Shoes, Socks ... |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:32pm
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Broken ball! Which brand did they use at this event? Also Timo played very bad, it looked like he was very uncomfortable returning the kid's serve... Which in my opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: 100niTenis
Date Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:36pm
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I also agree that services from Hugo looked little or more illegal ------------- Blade, Rubbers, Shoes, Socks ... |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:06am
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illegal serve from Hugo. His serves were tossed from the middle of the table, then ended up outside the sideline of the table. They were also hidden serves. I would compLain about his serve If I were his opponent. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:23am
Rule says a let is called when: 2.09.02.04 because the conditions of play are disturbed in a way which could affect the outcome of the rally. A ball breaking during the point would be that, if that is what was going on. I normally don't complain about ITTF and professional levels players serving illegally, since most of the time the people calling the match are good umpires, and the main thing necessary is consistency in how they call it. I think the professional umpires are pretty consistent and I rarely think that pros serves are what I would call illegal. But, this time I did think that Hugo Calderano was walking a really really fine line, his arm really needs to get out of the way, some should have been called. |
100niTenis wrote:Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:10am
| When it comes to sportsmanship, this hugo kid is as bad as xu sin. |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:54am
were they playing with 40+ ?
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Posted By: Timo1978
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:59am
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Indeed Timo had Problems in service returns last Sunday while Calderano had no problems with Timos serves at all. However Calderano had some amazing backhand winners and through the entire match my personal impression was that Boll was not really focused and never managed to get into the match. Maybe he was too sure he would win since he defeated Pitchford easily in his first singles before. Before the start of the last single between Gionis and Pitchford Gionis complained about the polyballs. The Referee gave him a new one which Gionis also did not like so the ref finally gave him a second one. BTW the best match last Sunday was Gauzy vs. Gionis. Gauzy with a top Performance against the experienced Greek Defender.  ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61541&title=feedback-timo1978" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 4:22am
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This brazi kid has one of the most illegal serve in world table tennis. His serves were hidden with 45 degree ball tosses. when is he going to get warned / penalised for this blatant cheating? |
Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 7:56am
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I don't remember having seen such a strong backhand recently with such a regularity. Even Dima and Kreanga don't hit as hard as Calderano I think. But it is true that even if he throws the ball high when he serves, his left arm is permanently in the way and it goes down with the ball which prevents the opponent to see what he needs.
------------- Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm |
Posted By: 109eh
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 8:02am
2.9 A LET 2.9.2.4 because the conditions of play are disturbed in a way which could affect the outcome of the rally.
I think Timo Boll is a very experienced player and he thought the opponent's serve was illegal and because of that he had difficulties to receive, surely he would have warned the referee (umpire). Looking at most of the Calderano's services, some were illegal. Because his arm stands between the ball and the net (many plays do this), but I think Calderano don't hid the spin!
I saw again the full match with closed and slow motion, and I think Hugo did not hide the rotation with the body.
About the launch vertically, he's releasing the ball too high, in which case the rule is not applied so rigidly, because a perfect launch vertically is impossible, since the mechanical motion with the arm! This observation I received in the course of referee (umpire) of a international umpire of ITTF! For the people who are severely criticizing the child because of the service, remember that the launch of the world's best (ranking), Xu Xin, is less than 16 cm and not vertically. ------------- See TT videos on http://www.youtube.com/user/109eh |
Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 8:51am
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As I thought, It really seems that these poly balls give a huge advantage to the hitters, no need to build the point, just hit the ball and don't brush it because it won't have spin and your opponent won't have any difficulties to smash it back in your face..... I've just seen on youtube the summary of Gauzy-Gionis during the same evening. I'm pretty sure Gionis has always beaten Gauzy very easily when they often met in France competition and this time, he has not only lost to him but there was no match, just a walk for Gauzy, suddenly, Gionis's heavy backspin seemed to have disappeared and his defensive strokes looked like simple pushes !!!!! ------------- Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:24am
I agree that he had a lot of serves that looked hidden but you have to put part of that on Timo. He has to say something to point it out to the official's attention. So either it was bothering Timo and he didn't say anything to get the call. Or it didn't bother him and we're making a big fuss over nothing. Hugo definitely was putting that big backhand on display. Seemed so many times he'd willingly back off center of the table, wait for his moment then rip a big backhand and Timo had a hard time returning it or telling where it'd go. Looked as though his backhand was on par with someone's forehand. Really good.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:29am
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jackwong, calm down. It's not the player's fault if the umpire doesn't call the serve illegal. I saw no bad sportsmanship. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:11am
I understand this kid represents your country and you are proud of his achievements but everyone here is stating that he has an illegal serve. It's very much clear that he is hiding the contact point with his body. He is young and needs to understand that in the long run that it is not acceptable and would be viewed as unsportsmanlike conduct. Some blame should also be put on the refs. I guess they assumed Timo can beat this kid fairly easy and did not bother calling it... But Timo is the type of person to not really complain about an illegal service. Much respect to him... but the kid really needs to learn about ethics of sportsmanship. I'm sure his coach has something to do with this. In my eyes when you do an illegal serve so many times in a match you are abusing the system and completely lose any respect. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: Timo1978
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:18am
I think Gauzy really played very good last Sunday. Unlike Pitchford in the last single vs. Gionis Gauzy made only few mistakes when Looping on Gionis underspin chops. Plus, he was able to Switch the Looping direction from Gionis backhand to his Forehand much faster than Pitchford. After Gionis started to open mostly with his short backhand serves and avoiding the serves he was using before he took over the match. Not to speak about the fact that Pitchford did not really dare to attack Gionis Forehand spots since he lost some points due to the counterattacks there  ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61541&title=feedback-timo1978" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:32am
All the blame goes on the umpires. If they don't call it illegal, by definition it is legal. A legal serve is whatever the umpire says it is, just like fouls in futbol and basketball and balls and strikes in baseball. It's not Calderano's job to do their work for them and this is not a question of sportsmanship. By the way, I have never heard a top player complain that they lost a match because their opponent hid serves. My impression is that they have a lot of pride in their skills and most believe they ought to be able to return effectively no matter how hidden the thing is and would never want to admit to being hurt by it. |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:42am
| What's all this fuss about illegal serves? Doesn't the kid do high toss all the time? For forehand (reverse)pendulum serves, the contact has to be very close to the body, so obstruction is more or less always there. ALL top players do that, at least on men's side. 99.99% of the time the kid's serve won't be called. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:43am
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I agree on the second part of that statement Baal. Timo Boll already accomplished so much and his near perfect image would suffer if he complained about illegal service while playing against a child. It would just look really bad even if he was right... He would rather lose. On the other hand. Steger complains a lot apparently e.g. vs Tan Ruiwu. So does Korbel e.g. vs Ma Long. Korbel was complaining and being a baby at the end of the match refusing to sign the paper. It does make you look bad in the end but everyone wants to play fair that's why we cant rely on the refs to do their job properly. The players need to have some sense of fair game spirit, but unfortunately some do not have that. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: geardaddy
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:43am
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+1 on it's the umpire's job... I think the high camera view makes things look worse than they are. The lower camera angles I think give a more accurate impression of what Timo can actually see, which is that the serve is not really being hidden so much.
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Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:46am
Didn't Boll complain about Freitas' serve not long ago? Freitas himself used to complain about someone else's serve, too (I think it was Shibaev), now he stopped complaining and started hiding it himself, haha 
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Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:51am
+1 The illegal serve police are at it again. How many times do we have to see professionals play and people come out of the woodwork saying "that serve is hidden!!" You could easily argue that 85% of all pros either completely or almost completely (that's the catch) hide their serves. Yet it isn't called. So it's not illegal. Furthermore, I have a different take on sportsmanship in professional sports. In basketball, guys flop like they got mugged. In Soccer, guys act like their leg is broken, get the yellow card then amazingly pop up like they're fine. Is that good sportsmanship? Probably not but who cares. In professional sports, it's just about winning. If players in table tennis were all concerned about everything being comply fair in line with good sportsmanship, they probably wouldn't boost all their rubbers. But they do. So lets just put that whole notion to bed. It's about wins & losses.
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Posted By: Timo1978
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:52am
Since Calderano signed the contract with Ochsenhausen on 30.05. this year i do not think that Ochsenhausens head Skoric or Mazunov are to blame for Calderanos serves. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61541&title=feedback-timo1978" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:53am
Yes Timo, you saw it live and of course you saw more than these 7 minutes video but I find quiet strange that Gauzy, suddenly was able to adjust his game to a level which led him to an easy win against a guy who gave him each time troubles in the past. I'm not saying that Gauzy played bad or well but that these poly balls surely had its role in such a result. ------------- Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:04am
Well that's on Timo then. I don't get that sentiment at all. There's nothing wrong with saying "I can't see that serve" to the ref at the beginning of a match and then proceeding on. If they call it, great. If they don't? Then you have to live with that as it's legal. But if Timo would rather look good and lose vs taking a quick moment at the beginning of the match to point out that he can't see the serve and try to win, then that's his problem. For the record, I don't think that was the case. I think Timo could read the serve and felt he could receive it fine. He just got out played that day.
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Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:33am
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Unfortunately I had to read about Calderano´s serves, broken ball and its rule and Timo´s image being scratched because of this or that. Calderano´s brilliant and remarkable performance was just kicked out of the window.
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Posted By: AMonteiro
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:40am
And also what Timo said after the match:" Hugo won playing really, really well. I've never played him before and he read all my plays/strategies. I didn't play bad but he kept calm in crucial moments and this is not easy for such a young player. Hats off for him." ------------- Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR |
Posted By: DistantStar
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:52am
No serve comes close to XUXIN in terms of being illegal ------------- Nittaku Acoustic Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0 Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:41pm
Of course we can and they do a great job, mostly. I find what is allowed in ITTF competition to be pretty consistent. Consistency is the main thing. Players need to have a clear idea what they can and can't do. As for Steger, it doesn't take much of anything to set him off so if he complains about someone's serve I tend to discount it. Calderano played better and he won. It's great for him. Next time Boll will be more ready for him and will play him differently and will probably win. He was actually returning serve well. |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:41pm
then you are very wrong. Steger did complain about tan ruiwuˊs serve during a match as tan hid the serves with his shoulder. Steger did lose the match and you can watch this match on youtube. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=us3G7mVWy4o watch the above video from 5:00 onward. you notice that Steger did complain about tanˊs illegal serve and tan denied it. Steger definitely lost the match because of tanˊs illegal serve. Tan is another illegal server just like xu sin. I just dont have any respect for players with illegal serves as it is cheating and having an unfair advantage over the opponents. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:46pm
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By that standard about half of the players on the ITTF tour are cheating. |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:53pm
no. there are only 3 main culprits out there - xu sin, tan ruiwu and this hugo kid who are blatant offenders. The worst of the rest are only borderline offenders |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:13pm
I would have to agree with jackwong23 here. In TT, umpires do not have much power over the players and they really need to enforce the rule more. There is also this kid: 3:01 Yu Ziyang. Probably more of a cheater than the illegal servers. His arrogance and disputing the point after it clearly did not land made me hate him the most of out all players out there. He knew it did not land, his face said it all and then he put his racket down... but decided to contest it. Shame shame shame. This is why refs need video replays and more service rule enforcement. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:13pm
| By the way, is this Hugo kid bronze medal in the youth Olympics? |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:15pm
What was the refs opinion of the serve? Oh they didn't have a problem with it and deemed it to be llegal? Then that's the only opinion that matters. In the tournament standings and in the pocketbook. No sense in getting all worked up over it. Best you can do is state your case (I have no problems when I see people do it on any level), adjust to whatever the final verdict is and play on from there. Simple.
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Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:17pm
i think boll lost cos he coouldnt return well hugo'serves and he blocked soft most of the shots and not the first time i see that boll is trying to be a nice guy playing a young player, in some shots boll power was too much for hugo but boll is too pasive, boll has been safe returning harder loops of the chinese squad and i think he played bad this kid
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Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:41pm
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I don't care for this Hugo guy's backhand. He looks completely twisted and awkward and unnatural, much like Dimo, although in a different way. All umpires, US and international, do a pathetic job of enforcing the serve rules. Absolutely pathetic. They would rather have a nice and peaceful match where both player are left to cheat than enforce the rules against both of them. I don't think that a serve against the rules is legal only because an ump didn't call it. Taking advantage of a spineless ref is a lowly tactic and should be recognized and humiliated. I also don't agree that the opinion of players who often protest should be discounted. Such people are more valuable than the rest of the sheep-like player population. Most people dislike and avoid confrontation, its unpleasant. I much respect the people who stand up and defend themselves even at a public place. ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:51pm
I agree. His form almost looks like he is flailing his arms all the time. Not compact at all compared to Timo or CNT. And yes, much like Dima, I was just thinking that as well. You said it right assiduous. Most players should voice their opinion but some do not as they care for their overall image. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:54pm
Yes. this is another unsportsmanlike kid I hate to watch alongside xu sin, tan ruiwu and hugo. And I almost forgot about him. Most of the unsportsmanlike players if you notice are from china. Maybe they were taught from an early age to have an win at all cost mentality, even allowing one to forsake his honesty and guidance of the conscience during table tennis matches. |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 2:14pm
same goes for niwa, playing to lee jun woo the umpire asked niwa if the ball hit the edge and niwa was silent
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Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 2:21pm
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These young kids these days have no respect for the game! SHAME  ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: Tommy16
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 2:30pm
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I wouldn´t put Calderano and Yu to the same page. I really can´t see any unsportman behavior in Calderanos game. From the angle that the mach against Boll was filmed doesn´t tell if his serves are wrong or not. And even if they are and nobody tells him that he might not know that they are wrong. Boll played a really poorly and Calderano played really well, that´s all. ------------- What is the point of playing safe shots when you can miss with style My feedback: http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67171&KW=&PID=811763&title=tommy16-feedback#811763 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 2:48pm
Especially the very best ones. The only guy who serves in front of his body mostly is Samsonov and maybe Dima. The rest hide the ball to some degree. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 2:57pm
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Ma Long is as far from vertical as Hugo Calderano. Michael Maze also on regular pendulum. Those are just the guys who come to mind. Most players in fact. The guys who mostly serve with reverse pendulum are out front only because it is biomechanically impossible any other way. All of these players' livelihood depends on how well they play, serves being an important part, and it is not just the youngest players who may be pushing the limit. Most importantly, they are not the ones responsible for calling illegal serves. They are also not the ones who implemented this miserably designed rule change. So if they are not getting called, the only assumption they can make is that the serve is legal! It is not fair in that case to ask them to make any change if they are not getting called. Any comment that they "lack respect for the game" reflects a lack of respect for these players and what they have to go through to try to make a living in this underfunded sport. To me it means about the same thing as "get off my lawn!!", and "these kids these days"..... Direct your venom to the right people -- the umpires. (Also the ITTF for making this unnecessary rule change in the first place). * lying about whether a ball hit an edge or bounced twice, that is another matter. |
Posted By: Timo1978
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:02pm
+1 I could not agree more. Calderanos serves were not hidden. The camera angle makes many members thinking they were but this was not the case. I was sitting in the second row with nobody in front of me last Sunday, about 5-6 metres behind the table on the right and had a perfect view. Last Sunday Boll just did not play well enough against Calderano. If you take a look at Skachkovs serves he does not toss the ball straight up, he throws towards his direction to the left Corner. As Long as People are looking out for "forbidden" things they mostly find some issues if they search long enough for "mistakes" ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61541&title=feedback-timo1978" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:05pm
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Also, whoever made the comment that it is mostly only Chinese players who have bad sportsmanship has --- issues. Funny on a thread where Bastian Steger is mentioned. Shibaev? Ever watch Michael Maze lose his mind? Were WLQ and KLH ever anything other than beyond reproach in their play? Can you stand the choing of the Romanian woman? Seriously. |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:15pm
110% agreed. The service rule in table tennis is so stupidly forumulated that it might be one of the dumbest rules I've ever encountered in any sport. Table tennis is the only sport I can think of which requires a referee to make his judgements based on what he thinks ANOTHER HUMAN BEING can see, rather than determining what he sees through his own eyes and worldview. I can't think of any such similar rule in any of the major sports out there. But I've complained about this is another thread already, so I don't want to go on a huge tangent. If I was playing professional table tennis for a living, you better darn well believe that I'm serving that thing as close to my body as I can until the referee starts calling it. This is competition. This is war. We are here to win. Blame the ITTF for forumulating a rdiculous rule that is not even remotely enforceable, not the players. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:20pm
I watched this. Two things. First, it is true that Tan's serves are close to the edge. At first glance, I thought, I would call those illegal if I was an umpire. But then, from that same camera angle (after they switch sides), when you watch Steger serve, it also looks hidden, to me pretty much equally so. Second Steger is complaining about everything in that match (as is usual for him when he is losing). It is not obvious at the 5:00 mark that he is complaining about a hidden serve, for example when he throws his paddle on the table. That may be what is happening but it is very far from obvious, especially given the context of his complaining about missing so many shots leading up to that. Unless you were there and heard what he was saying, and saw what happened in between points (edited out of that clip) you would not know what was actually happening. Of course, you could imagine that is what he is complaining about, but it is equally likely that he is just pissed off that he missed a serve. I get pissed off too when I play badly or stupidly, so I feel where he is coming from. So I don't accept this as evidence for what is claimed. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:24pm
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The newest version of the rule says that it is the responsibility of the player to make it absolutely obvious to the umpire (who is not seated in the optimal position) that he/she is serving legally. At the end of the day, the umpire has to call it when he/she is in doubt about legality. This sets out clearly who is responsible for what. |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:29pm
But Baal. Tan was born in China! So naturally he must be a bad sport who likes to hide his serves. Must be taught that or something. Don't you know?  |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:30pm
Except that adding that clause accomplished absolutely nothing. There is always going to be that thin line where it may or may not be "absolutely obvious". Again, the problem stems from asking the umpire to do something which is not phsycally possible (make a judgement call based on what you perceive another human being sees). Either back to allowing hidden serves or force the serve to be visible to both umpires, please. It's the only way. Seriously. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 4:17pm
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My last thought on this (already badly hijacked) thread. With new balls, serve return is going to be even easier. I am very certain of this. We are going to see people attacking serves we never saw attacked before. I don't want to see the balance tipped to far in favor of the returner by any additional ill-advised new rules. It's a racket sport, after all. Congratulations to the young guy who beat Boll. Nice to see someone do well from the Western Hemisphere. It is good for the sport. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 4:54pm
Which ball was used in this event? ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: AMonteiro
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 5:37pm
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Each team choses the ball when playing at home. I belive Ochsenhausen used Donic 3 star plastic balls. ------------- Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 6:41pm
Notice that Steger and tan got into a conversation and both of them made action of serve with their racket ( without the ball ). So obviously that was something to do with tanˊs serve. This dispute happened immediately after tan had an easy put away after Steger popped up his serve. Judging From the above evidences I can be very sure that Steger was complaining about the hiddeness of tanˊ s serve. |
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 8:14pm
yu's fault in the final is something wrong but i ve seen other matches from him and there is nothing like lin gaoyuan. other offenders are karakasevic yelling at his coach, maze throwing his raquet and behaving like 12 year old brat
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Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:08pm
That's frustration. Not cheating. Chen Weixing outbursts in almost every match he plays.. Does he cheat? No. Frustration does not make a bad character, cheating does. Yu's blatant cheating is the worst of them all IMO. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:20pm
Exactly, I dont despise players who show their frustrations by throwing racket or yelling, as these behaviours are not cheatings. Players who hide the serves deliberately or claiming edge balls which do not touch the edge of the table are all cheaters. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:32pm
I don't see any of that! In any case, the umpire didn't call it. Too bad for Steger. He was fooled by a serve. It happens. And as I said, from the same camera angle, Steger's serves appear to be equally hidden. I have watched Tan play a lot on video because his quickness amazes me and their aren't that many SP players among top men. I can't recall EVER seeing him get called for an illegal serve. Clearly the vast majority of ITTF umpires see it differently. So calling him a "cheater" is over the top, really says more about you than it does about him. |
Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:49pm
if you pretent not see Stegerˊs complaint about the hiddeness of tanˊs serve, well, it is up to you. End of discussion. Umpires not calling tanˊs serves does not mean it is legal. His serves were illegal as the racket contact of his serves were not visible to his opponents. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:28pm
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I am not pretending to not see, it. I saw something and can not intepret what it was. You have not addressed my point that from the same point of view of that camera, Steger's serves were equally hidden. Clearly we are not going to convince each other, but I think it is a pretty small person who accuses other people of "cheating" on the basis of that evidence. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:12am
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Hugo's serves are just as legal as Timo's. Why? (edit: Both players' serves are tossed at a non-vertical angle except Hugo tosses higher, so it is more obvious.) The trajectory of Hugo's toss is as (if not more) vertical than Timo's serves, but it is because it is tossed higher, the ball falls down to the side of the table. So, if Timo were to toss his serve equally as high, the ball would too be falling quite a distance away from where tossed. If you don't believe me, then I urge you to check Timo's serves in the video, just his first 3 serves will do. You will realise in each Timo's serve, the ball travels horizontally quite long in proportion to the vertical flight. So, the ball would too travel in the same manner as that in Hugo's serve, if Timo were to toss his serve as high. Think of physics. Remember, the rule is the ball must be tossed near vertical. Hugo's toss is as vertical as Timo's if not more so. (edit: The real questions would then be: 1) are both serving legally? 2) how should vertically be interpreted?) |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:52am
The issue is not the verticality or trajectory of the serve, but whether or not the ball remains visible to Timo for the entire duration. My opinion is that Timo probably can't see the serve from where he's standing, but since none of us possess supernatural powers, the only person in the universe that knows whether or not the serve is legal is Timo. Regardless of anything else, Calderano's serve is always illegal because he does not immediately remove his free arm "as soon as the ball has been projected" as the rule requires. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 1:30am
Hey, thanks for your reply. Right, so we are questioning his free arm. In which case, I do see your point but the video is inconclusive as to whether the free arm obstructed Timo's view from where he was standing. As you have pointed out, Timo would know if visibility was hindered. Though note, Hugo's serve doesn't look too much different to the many Ma Long's serves he did in this video (yes, it is a training video, but nonetheless). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0bg_VgeYwE" rel="nofollow - Ma Long in training |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 1:32am
| - blah - ignore - screwed up posting |
Posted By: naijachief
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 10:45am
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Funny thread. The moral of the story is you cant beat Timo Boll unless you are using illegal serves and are somehow cheating or you are Chinese.....LOL ------------- who no know go know |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 10:50am
Yes, judging by this criteria, most top pros' serves are illegal. But umps can't fault most top pros' serves, can they? |
Posted By: geardaddy
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:04am
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Criminy, these forums can be the official whiners club for nitpicking serves! Get over it people! What Calderano is doing with his left arm is soooo common. ML, ZJK, FZD, XX, and YA all do the same thing, as so do so many others. Timo, Dima, and Samsonov are exceptions in that their serves kept in clear view throughout the serve, but IMO they're just being nice guys.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:26am
Ah, finally, the unstated subplot has been brought to light... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:41am
+1 This topic was pretty much laid to rest after that Chinese comment... Think that's about all we needed to hear. :)
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Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:45am
Timo and Dima are no exceptions. You can see in this video, they too also leave their free hands in the air for a large period of time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBBwdZMOfUc |
Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:48am
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------ Hugo Calderano has been improving like crazy in 2014. Anyone who follows many TT channels on YouTube, and watches a lot of matches (like me) knows this. Its no surprise that he can take out Timo. Timo is also in a transition zone right now. He has to fight harder than ever to stay competitive at the elite pro level. ------------- 
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Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:49am
Timo and Dima serve no differently to the Chinese. In some serves, the free hand moves away just moments before the ball is struck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBBwdZMOfUc |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:55am
Here we go again... read before posting... The point naijachief was making was that people are really complaining because Timo Boll lost to a lower ranked non-Chinese player. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 12:01pm
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I think I have highlighted that Hugo's free arm's position and movement during service is no different to that of Ma Long, Timo and Dima. And prior to that, I have highlighted his ball toss trajectory is as vertical (if not more so) than Timo's. Hence, I think Hugo serves as legally as others - Ma Long, Timo and Dima. I just think some people are just shocked to see Timo getting beat by someone who isn't an established household name player. But, you got to remember, no one is invincible in sport. Upsets do happen. |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 1:22pm
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I don't know if any of you guys are referring to me or not, but let me make it clear that I personally could care less whether or not Timo Boll loses to a non-Chinese player. Boll did not lose this match because Calderano did not remove his free arm, but that doesn't change the fact that Calderano's serve is illegal according to the rules. So is the high toss serve of Ma Long, Ovtcharov, and many others... |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 2:10pm
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Even though Calderano doesn't remove his free arm, at least it doesn't obstruct your view of the serve, IMO. What's illegal is him hiding the serve with his body and difficult to see unless you're standing on the opposite diagonal. Either way, except for a few instances, Boll didn't seem to have any problems with it. That raises the question - is it the responsibility of the receiver to stand in a position so that he can see the serve clearly? The rule only states that it is the responsibility of the server to ensure that the serve is not hidden and if Boll were standing more to his right, it would be hidden. ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 2:26pm
According to the rules, It is the responsibility of the server to make sure that the serve is always visible to the receiver at all times until the ball is struck. Imagine the following scenario: Two right handed players are playing and both the server and receiver are standing in the classic backhand corner positions. The server is making his serves relatively close to his body, but he is still "absolutely certain" that the receiver can see all his serves. He is having good success serving short to his opponent's forehand. In order to counter this, the receiver decides he is going to step over to his right after the ball is tossed and play the modern backhand flip from the FH side. According to the rules as written, the server would need to detect this movement from the receiver and make a last minute adjustment to his serve (by opening up his body) after he has already tossed the ball, in order to ensure that he is absolutely certain the receiver can see the ball. So yes, not only is it stupid to presume that an umpire can tell whether or not a serve is visible for a receiver, but is also ridiculous to expect a server to be certain that his serve is visible to a moving target.
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Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 10:49pm
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Well, this answers the question about whose responsibility to ensure the ball is visible at all times during service. 2.06.06 It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 10:56pm
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Yes. And if the umpires are satisfied that pretty much settles the matter. Anyway, it is nice to see someone new emerge, especially someone from one of the continents not well represented among the top echelons. It's good for the sport. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:08pm
From what I have gathered, it seems like a number of people just want to find excuses or reasons on why Timo was defeated, thus all these talks on Hugo's serves being illegal. Nothing to do with Hugo being non-Chinese, or Timo beat by a lower ranked non-Chinese, because if that was the case, the discussion would have turned to who else (lower ranked) have beat Timo in the past. And the discussion would then probably led to Chinese vs European strokes. I think, thus far, I have proven Hugo's serves are as legal as anyone else's, be it Ma Long, Dima and Timo. I think people who are questioning Hugo's serves just have to eat a slice of humble pie and Come to terms that Hugo played better on the day, and to his credit. No one is invincible. |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:12pm
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the thing is if his serves look a bit dodgy to some members here and seem to give the server some advantage, then thats it, It dosn't have be argued and won ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 10/22/2014 at 11:16pm
+1 I too hope to see more successes from the developing continents - South America, Africa, North America and Oceania; as that would mean the sport is taken seriously by more people globally - statistics reasoning. |