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Jim Butler vs Kunal Chodri (2014 Nationals final)

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Topic: Jim Butler vs Kunal Chodri (2014 Nationals final)
Posted By: amateur
Subject: Jim Butler vs Kunal Chodri (2014 Nationals final)
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 3:35pm
including all of game 7 Wink






Replies:
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 3:50pm
Getting an error - can you provide the direct link

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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: in2spin
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 3:54pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK26wPD9Z40#t=3801


Posted By: VictorK
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Getting an error - can you provide the direct link


I searched on Youtube and got this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK26wPD9Z40" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK26wPD9Z40

Edit - I just noticed another posted provided the link few minutes ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK26wPD9Z40" rel="nofollow -




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1% equipment
0% ratings


Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 4:10pm
Thanks for the link. Kunal C. just wasn't ready to win. Got very tight after the changeover. I guess still young, hopefully will learn and improve. Congratulations to Jim Butler for the win, experience definitely paid off.



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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Thanks for the link. Kunal C. just wasn't ready to win. Got very tight after the changeover. I guess still young, hopefully will learn and improve. Congratulations to Jim Butler for the win, experience definitely paid off.



I think that there is an increasing appreciation that winning is not just about having the better technique. People who think that intangibles don't play a role in winning haven't seen enough chokers. Congrats to both Jim and Kunal for a great match which I wish I could have seen to the conclusion live.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Dr.Cho
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 4:29pm
What is Jimmy using... the backhand sounds thin.

More of an control game for the most part.

At least thats what i see in this match.


Posted By: in2spin
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 4:47pm
yes, i think after the changeover (when the livestream went dead......)

kunal obviously was nervous and most definitely short-armed a few fh counters, which gave jimmy life

:)


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 5:27pm
Thanks for posting!


Posted By: 42andbackpains
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 6:08pm
Anybody know why Jim Butler had 2 different colored shoes on? And Congrats Jim Butler. Great touch and strategy, not just about the power game. Gives me hope that past our primes can win too. Wink

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OSP Ultimate II 88 grams
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BH Butterfly T05 Red
USATT rating keeps going down


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Anybody know why Jim Butler had 2 different colored shoes on?


What's strange about that - he also had 2 different colored rubbers Wink

The commentators said that this was some kind of whim or superstition.

Maybe the title will help him get a sponsor and proper clothes?


Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 9:39pm
It is the deal on Amazon. You need to buy two pairs of those ASCIS volleyball shoes to get 30% off. By the way, why were they playing in such slow paces? My feeling is that they are many levels below those CNT members.

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Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/22/2014 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

It is the deal on Amazon. You need to buy two pairs of those ASCIS volleyball shoes to get 30% off. By the way, why were they playing in such slow paces? My feeling is that they are many levels below those CNT members.
One guy is below 15 and the other guy is over 40 - how many CNT players are in that age range?


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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: samgoody
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 12:15am
Butlers's hair do is ....just extraordinary


Posted By: berkeleydoctor
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 1:04am
kunal definitely let his nerves get the better of him in the 7th, but what can you expect, he's 15


Posted By: Snakefish
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 2:31am
Originally posted by berkeleydoctor berkeleydoctor wrote:

kunal definitely let his nerves get the better of him in the 7th, but what can you expect, he's 15


Kunal is only 15 ?   definitely fooled me

Yeah, Congrats to Jimmy Butler.  Kudos to his hardwork on the comeback trail.  Definitely paid off. He deserved it.   ClapClapClapClapClap


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Andro Treiber Z - fl
FH: Tibhar MX-D max
BH: Tibhar Quantum ProX-blue,max


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 5:40am
This is the final of all united states?

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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: naijachief
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 6:36am
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

This is the final of all united states?

Hahahahahaha....yes it is.

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who no know go know


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 7:59am
Originally posted by naijachief naijachief wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

This is the final of all united states?

Hahahahahaha....yes it is.


I thought there were some Asian/American players who were better..

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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: NBSR
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 9:28am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

It is the deal on Amazon. You need to buy two pairs of those ASCIS volleyball shoes to get 30% off. By the way, why were they playing in such slow paces? My feeling is that they are many levels below those CNT members.


How do I catch this deal? I added two to the cart and yet they were regular prices.


Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:03am
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by naijachief naijachief wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

This is the final of all united states?

Hahahahahaha....yes it is.


I thought there were some Asian/American players who were better..

Jim Butler has defeated the likes of Saive and Eloi (in their primes), among others in big events, so don't underestimate his level of talent. Wink






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Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:05am
Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Anybody know why Jim Butler had 2 different colored shoes on?

#Swag Tongue


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:13am
I asked him and he said that it was too long to explain (or likely to be worth explaining).  Maybe Baal can get the full story some time.  

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:38am
Originally posted by LOOPMEISTER LOOPMEISTER wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by naijachief naijachief wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

This is the final of all united states?

Hahahahahaha....yes it is.


I thought there were some Asian/American players who were better..

Jim Butler has defeated the likes of Saive and Eloi (in their primes), among others in big events, so don't underestimate his level of talent. Wink





what's his best world ranking in his career??


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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:43am
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

This is the final of all united states?


No, just the playoff between the winners of U-16 and O-40. Players from other age groups defaulted / boycotted / choked / didn't care Wink

Butler's highest world ranking was around 70.


Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:44am
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

what's his best world ranking in his career??

#70

Don't disrespect this guy. He's had an unbelievable career, overcome some pretty serious injuries. Even now he wins when clearly you can see him cramping up a lot.

http://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Jim-Butler


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 11:59am
Originally posted by suds79 suds79 wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

what's his best world ranking in his career??

#70

Don't disrespect this guy. He's had an unbelievable career, overcome some pretty serious injuries. Even now he wins when clearly you can see him cramping up a lot.

http://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Jim-Butler

I don't disrepect him i asked cause i didn't know about Butler's career..The particular match is low level for 320M population though...


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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by suds79 suds79 wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

what's his best world ranking in his career??

#70

Don't disrespect this guy. He's had an unbelievable career, overcome some pretty serious injuries. Even now he wins when clearly you can see him cramping up a lot.

http://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Jim-Butler

I don't disrepect him i asked cause i didn't know about Butler's career..The particular match is low level for 320M population though...

The statement is meaningless since Sweden had high level matches even when it's population was nothing compared to China and USA.  Population is not a driver of TT Talent per se.  You can express your opinion of the match without backing it up with meaningless drivel to make it sound intelligent.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by suds79 suds79 wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">what's his best world ranking in his career??</span>


#70

Don't disrespect this guy. He's had an unbelievable career, overcome some pretty serious injuries. Even now he wins when clearly you can see him cramping up a lot.

http://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Jim-Butler


I don't disrepect him i asked cause i didn't know about Butler's career..The particular match is low level for 320M population though...


Only 1/10 of 320M know Table Tennis (the rest only know basement Ping Pong), and 1/10 of that 1/10 are interested in serious/competitive TT.


Posted By: chongqinghotpot
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 12:38pm
First of all, many thanks for the veodo and link so that we can see how Jim turned it around during the second half of game 7.
Secondly, this is a huge comeback-from-retirement story/sucess. To me, its' bigger than Michael Jordan's.
Thirdly, Jim's game once again showed TT is not just about speed and power, other components such as spin, control, placement, change in pace/rhythm and variation are equally important. Jim was no longer 2750 in speed and power in the tourney. But his understanding about TT and experience served him well to win the whole thing. He was the best player for the tourney and he deserved the title more than anybody else.


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USATT rating 2200
05Vis64


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

I asked him and he said that it was too long to explain (or likely to be worth explaining).  Maybe Baal can get the full story some time.  


Pretty simple.  He told us at the club that he saw somebody else do it once (he told me and I forgot) and he thought it looked cool so ordered two pairs of shoes in different colors and has been doing it ever since.  That's about all there is to it.  I think it is kind of strange looking personally, but nobody has ever asked my advice about style, probably for good reasons.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

The particular match is low level for 320M population though...


Jimmy is a close friend.  He is really happy he won, and I would never want to put words in his mouth, but based on conversations we've had I think he would probably agree with this.  He has played at the highest levels and pretty much knows.  In his prime,  he was training on a regular basis (like every day) with guys like Erick Lindh and Peter Karlsson, and competing against the top guys in Sweden of that era, and now he plays maybe three times a week against three guys who are good -- 2450 range -- but all of them are over 40 and it's not quite the same.  Actually, Jimmy thinks his forehand is technically more sound now, but he also knows his backhand just doesn't have the same consistency that it did.  I think the larger balls help him a lot.  It is really hard to get balls by him.  I expect him to win more tournaments as he regains his form. 


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by suds79 suds79 wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

what's his best world ranking in his career??

#70

Don't disrespect this guy. He's had an unbelievable career, overcome some pretty serious injuries. Even now he wins when clearly you can see him cramping up a lot.

http://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/athletes/Jim-Butler

I don't disrepect him i asked cause i didn't know about Butler's career..The particular match is low level for 320M population though...

The statement is meaningless since Sweden had high level matches even when it's population was nothing compared to China and USA.  Population is not a driver of TT Talent per se.  You can express your opinion of the match without backing it up with meaningless drivel to make it sound intelligent.

The meaning of my comment was that i surpiced of the level i watched on the video..I know that in USA table tennis is not such a developed sport but i thought the level was higher than this..If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 2:00pm
Jim has written that the professional environment for TT in the US is not good enough and that a tour/league needs to be built where the Chinese coaches can compete with the homegrown talent. We can be greedy but we have some pretty good athletes in the sport. Keeping them and growing them is the key. The good thing is that Lily actually likes table tennis. It might not just be a stepping stone to other things for her.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


He was world #70 in 1993, not 2014!  With that said, he had a win not too long ago at a tournament here in Houston over a guy rated > 2700.  Jimmy still has incredible timing and ball feel, and his serves are filthy and very well disguised and he knows how not to beat himself on key points.  At his prime he probably consistently hit his backhand harder than most people in the world.  The crazy thing is that it is right around two years since he came back off a nine year layoff -- that after an earlier eight year layoff!  In other words, he has played 2-3 years out of the last 21.

Of course, if you are saying that US table tennis has been in a severe slide, well that is pretty obvious, at least for men.  I am very glad my friend won the tournament, but it is not good news for US table tennis.  There is no future here for a table tennis player.  Why should anyone play this sport seriously here?  That is the harsh reality.  How many people in the US make the bulk of their living by playing table tennis,,as opposed to coaching it?  The few who try, what do they sacrifice and how well does it work out for them?  It's better to go to Princeton.  There is no doubt about it.


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


He was world #70 in 1993, not 2014!  With that said, he had a win not too long ago at a tournament here in Houston over a guy rated > 2700.  Jimmy still has incredible timing and ball feel, and his serves are filthy and very well disguised and he knows how not to beat himself on key points.  At his prime he probably consistently hit his backhand harder than most people in the world.  The crazy thing is that it is right around two years since he came back off a nine year layoff -- that after an earlier eight year layoff!  In other words, he has played 2-3 years out of the last 21.

Of course, if you are saying that US table tennis has been in a severe slide, well that is pretty obvious, at least for men.  I am very glad my friend won the tournament, but it is not good news for US table tennis.

yeap i meant that if a guy that has played 2-3 years out of the last 21 won the nationals( of a population 230M ) indicates that the sport doesn't work right in the country..


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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..



Jim is well into his 40s.

Your first post was very condescending regarding the title and Jim's achievement. 

Several people have informed you about a great table tennis career he has had yet you still continue on. Can't you say "i didn't know he was that good at one point. My bad." and be done with it? Instead you keep digging yourself deeper.

Yes, we get your overall point. Table Tennis isn't very big in America comparatively speaking. We all know this and accept this. Now lets move on and simply say congrats to Jim.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


He was world #70 in 1993, not 2014!  With that said, he had a win not too long ago at a tournament here in Houston over a guy rated > 2700.  Jimmy still has incredible timing and ball feel, and his serves are filthy and very well disguised and he knows how not to beat himself on key points.  At his prime he probably consistently hit his backhand harder than most people in the world.  The crazy thing is that it is right around two years since he came back off a nine year layoff -- that after an earlier eight year layoff!  In other words, he has played 2-3 years out of the last 21.

Of course, if you are saying that US table tennis has been in a severe slide, well that is pretty obvious, at least for men.  I am very glad my friend won the tournament, but it is not good news for US table tennis.

yeap i meant that if a guy that has played 2-3 years out of the last 21 won the nationals( of a population 230M ) indicates that the sport doesn't work right in the country..

Kreanga is over 40 and still on your national team - the sport is pathetic in Greece.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


He was world #70 in 1993, not 2014!  With that said, he had a win not too long ago at a tournament here in Houston over a guy rated > 2700.  Jimmy still has incredible timing and ball feel, and his serves are filthy and very well disguised and he knows how not to beat himself on key points.  At his prime he probably consistently hit his backhand harder than most people in the world.  The crazy thing is that it is right around two years since he came back off a nine year layoff -- that after an earlier eight year layoff!  In other words, he has played 2-3 years out of the last 21.

Of course, if you are saying that US table tennis has been in a severe slide, well that is pretty obvious, at least for men.  I am very glad my friend won the tournament, but it is not good news for US table tennis.  There is no future here for a table tennis player.  Why should anyone play this sport seriously here?  That is the harsh reality.  How many people in the US make the bulk of their living by playing table tennis,,as opposed to coaching it?  The few who try, what do they sacrifice and how well does it work out for them?  It's better to go to Princeton.  There is no doubt about it.
Table Tennis in the US is not the best.  It's not even a slide - the world has changed radically and there are too many sports in the US and too much money for table tennis to be taken seriously even by people talented enough to play it.
 
It's clear he thinks the match standard is low - and yes, it is a match between players in the ITT top 400-500 or so.  But rather than just say that, he wants to rationalize it with all kinds of nonsense (the population etc.).  There are countries with far smaller populations with talent in excess of their population and larger countries with hardly any TT at all.  There aren't that many Greek 15 year olds who can play like Kunal, Kanak or Jack.  The real question is whether they decide to stay in the sport or not.  We don't have the infrastructure to support them, but there is so much provincial level talent in the US that if we had a league structure and players who loved TT enough to forgo the money from college etc., we could build world class players without much effort.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


He was world #70 in 1993, not 2014!  With that said, he had a win not too long ago at a tournament here in Houston over a guy rated > 2700.  Jimmy still has incredible timing and ball feel, and his serves are filthy and very well disguised and he knows how not to beat himself on key points.  At his prime he probably consistently hit his backhand harder than most people in the world.  The crazy thing is that it is right around two years since he came back off a nine year layoff -- that after an earlier eight year layoff!  In other words, he has played 2-3 years out of the last 21.

Of course, if you are saying that US table tennis has been in a severe slide, well that is pretty obvious, at least for men.  I am very glad my friend won the tournament, but it is not good news for US table tennis.

yeap i meant that if a guy that has played 2-3 years out of the last 21 won the nationals( of a population 230M ) indicates that the sport doesn't work right in the country..

Kreanga is over 40 and still on your national team - the sport is pathetic in Greece.

I don't understand your mean.If he can plays in top level while he is over 40 this is nothing to do with the sport or the country.As regarding what is pathetic just check the ITTF countries ranking and you will get ur answer.

p.s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnfDCcARzuI
      Just one week ago!!


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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

If Butler was #70 in men's world ranking in the particular match he didn't play likewise..


He was world #70 in 1993, not 2014!  With that said, he had a win not too long ago at a tournament here in Houston over a guy rated > 2700.  Jimmy still has incredible timing and ball feel, and his serves are filthy and very well disguised and he knows how not to beat himself on key points.  At his prime he probably consistently hit his backhand harder than most people in the world.  The crazy thing is that it is right around two years since he came back off a nine year layoff -- that after an earlier eight year layoff!  In other words, he has played 2-3 years out of the last 21.

Of course, if you are saying that US table tennis has been in a severe slide, well that is pretty obvious, at least for men.  I am very glad my friend won the tournament, but it is not good news for US table tennis.

yeap i meant that if a guy that has played 2-3 years out of the last 21 won the nationals( of a population 230M ) indicates that the sport doesn't work right in the country..

Kreanga is over 40 and still on your national team - the sport is pathetic in Greece.

I don't understand your mean.If he can plays in top level while he is over 40 this is nothing to do with the sport or the country.As regarding what is pathetic just check the ITTF countries ranking and you will get ur answer.

p.s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnfDCcARzuI
      Just one week ago!!
And if the level of a match is low, it has nothing to do with the population of the country!  Just check the populations of large and small countries that have done and not done well!

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:33pm
All i said is that US could and should improve the sport!

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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:46pm
outside of TT organizations and suppliers there was no coverage of the U.S. TT national's tournament in the U.S. media print or TV including the mens final at least that I could find  on a Google search, I even checked to see if Jim's hometown news paper said anything and nothing.  
I checked You tube for viewer number on the men's final and it said 7500 viewers with around 30K for quarterly through finals men and women.  So  no  interest in the U.S. nationals beyond the USATT membership base of 8K.  Am I missing something?
I did expect to find something but maybe it is in a local print media that is not internet connected and so no link. 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

All i said is that US could and should improve the sport!


If you had said that, and not what you originally said, who would argue with you. Again, the top juniors under 15 in the US compete reasonably well with the top juniors under 15 world over. It is when they go to college and stop trainingvthat the issue emerges. And even a career at a top club in Europe will not pay these guys what they can get as medical doctors in the USA.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Red24601
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 4:43pm
Can we just agree that population size is not the main factor for competitiveness in a sport, especially when there is no incentive ($ or fame) and infrastructure to achieve excellence in that sport in that particular country? You can apply this logic to table tennis in the U.S. and you can also apply it to basketball in China. With the world's largest population, China is not #1 in basketball, and it would be foolish to argue that they could become #1 (or even close) without widespread changes in how they develop and incentivize players. It would be equally foolish to trivialize the amount of effort it would take by simply stating... "china should improve in basketball." And it would be senseless to go to a Chinese basketball forum and begin to troll it by saying that the team that was #1 in China couldn't beat the Kentucky college team.

If the point is that US TT is not on par with the international community, bravo for stating the obvious.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

All i said is that US could and should improve the sport!


It would be nice for those of us who like it.  But why TT?  Why not gymnastics?  Or cycling?  Or running?  There are not professional leagues here, so no viable professional careers for players here on the entire continent. 


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

All i said is that US could and should improve the sport!


It would be nice for those of us who like it.  But why TT?  Why not gymnastics?  Or cycling?  Or running?  There are not professional leagues here, so no viable professional careers for players here on the entire continent. 

Here in Greece also leagues are not professional.The most people stop the everyday training when they are in high school(for studying and go to college after that).The payment for the best players right now is 4000 Euro per season.Papageorgiou last year won against Matsudaira but he earned 4000 from the Greek league.Kreanga and Gionis play abroad.I am saying that you don't need to be a super professional country to have better players.
I don't know Butler, of course bravo to him for the championship.But i was surprised from how low the level of the final match in the video was.


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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

All i said is that US could and should improve the sport!


It would be nice for those of us who like it.  But why TT?  Why not gymnastics?  Or cycling?  Or running?  There are not professional leagues here, so no viable professional careers for players here on the entire continent. 

Here in Greece also leagues are not professional.The most people stop the everyday training when they are in high school(for studying and go to college after that).The payment for the best players right now is 4000 Euro per season.Papageorgiou last year won against Matsudaira but he earned 4000 from the Greek league.Kreanga and Gionis play abroad.I am saying that you don't need to be a super professional country to have better players.
I don't know Butler, of course bravo to him for the championship.But i was surprised from how low the level of the final match in the video was.
There are higher level player in the US, but they are mostly foreign nationals. The US Nationals, I believe is only open to US Citizens. Also, because it is being held so close to Chirstmas and New Years - some high level university player do not play.

Also, in this final - Jim Butler and Chodry appeared to be quite nervous and little tentative. So perhaps the quality of the match was not the highest. Not sure how other national championships work - but I believe in the US Nationals - these players play in multiple events - so I am not sure if physical fatigue was a factor or not.

 


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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: macpoddy
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 7:54pm
Baal why would you think the bigger ball helps him. On the contrary I think it should hurt the punch hitting backhand that he has as he can't put balls away as it is slower. From the videos of him I have seen with the new ball I think his opponents have an easier time keeping the ball in play even when he counter hits with his backhand.


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

All i said is that US could and should improve the sport!


To understand this match, you have to understand the US sport system. To understand the US sport system, you have to understand their culture and psyche as compared to Europe.

1                 The player standard of US table tennis as a whole is of a high standard compared to the rest of the world.  Take out Kreanga and Gionis and on average they are as good as or better than Greece. It’s just that the players are scattered over a vast country and the top guys don’t qualify to play for the US. The US TT rating system is vastly superior to any other country. With the USATT their TT representative authority is more professional and democratically run than most other countries. It’s just that they have ‘factors’ to contend with not present in Europe.

2                 Americans on average work very long hours, get little time off and their welfare system is largely non-existent. Compare that with Europe where most workers have >3 weeks holidays per year, free healthcare, schooling and so on. So less time-off for hobbies etc.

3                 The country is vast, and their public transport system is limited, thus getting around for matches can be very difficult and time consuming even within a city.

4                 Americans don’t have a sense of community as in Europe thus the TT community is very insular. How else can you explain that California has these great clubs but doesn’t have a meaningful inter-club competition?

5                 US TT tournaments are as good as or better than any in the world. But again, they are scattered all over this big country.

6                 Amateur sport, especially TT, in Europe is mostly run by retired persons who basically take on the work as non-paying jobs. They can do this as their welfare system allows people to retire when they are still healthy and capable of working for several hours in a week. In USA, retirees tend to do just that, retire or if they are poor, work until they drop dead. So they don’t have the extensive volunteer system to run amateur sport as in Europe.

7                 Americans don’t understand team-based league systems for sports as Europeans do. Their top sports operate a vague league system but there’s no promotion or relegation, so new clubs cannot get a look-in. There are big clubs, but they operate as businesses within a Franchise which protects them. It’s basically a monopoly. So for TT to have a competition worthy of wide viewing it would have to be within a professional franchise system. They then would be competing for investment with profitable business schemes. Amateur sport in the US just not compare very well with European amateur sport because American culture, politics, finance and welfare system does not allow it.

This is a long way to explain that this match does not represent the best of US TT but is a couple of levels below their top ‘division’.

Counter arguments are welcome for this totally non-scientific and un-researched viewpoint.




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Blade:
Darker Speed90
Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg

Delusion is an asset


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/23/2014 at 10:26pm
Tinykin has identified a few issues with a kind spirit, but overstates several others.  Actually many adult Americans participate in organized sports, even in leagues, for example in bowling, cycling, running, skating, golf, softball, and others to numerous to list.  Most Americans are able to retire (at the moment, that may change soon as the disaster of the 401K method of self-funding retirements strikes home hard).   Table tennis here has never had many leagues, but we do have a lot of tournaments, some areas more than others.  I think leagues are a good thing but they are not the only way to organize your sport.  They take a lot of ongoing work.  The nice thing about tournaments is the time commitment is just that weekend, whereas with leagues you have to commit to an entire season.  Travel here is a big issue and the vast size of the country makes it hard to bring all the top players together for training.  Not many places have a density of players that could support a league.  The distance from Houston to Dallas is the same as London to Paris. From one side of LA to another can take a long time in a car.  (And yet, somehow they solve this in Australia, my hat's off to them).

Of course, the fact that we have no professional leagues means there is no way for top players here to actually make a living with this particular sport.  In a very real sense, nearly all of the players here are amateur players.  Jim Butler does not make his living playing table tennis.  This is not Germany (or even Brazil). In fact, in spite of the fact that our top players are no longer threats at big ITTF tournaments, the level of amateur table tennis in the US is pretty high, I can say this fairly confidently having traveled and played in many countries in Europe and Asia.  This is because, as I said, nearly everybody here is an amateur. 

But there is no future in it for a young kid here, pretty much no matter how talented they are.  If you know what's good for you here, once you graduate from high school, you go to a university and study hard and maybe play for fun just to stay active.  If you are supremely talented, you find a way to live and play professionally abroad, and be aware that you probably should not plan to spend much time back in the US------and after your playing career is over....... what then?  Better maybe to be a doctor or engineer.  And I say that knowing that a lot of the kids here who comprise our best cadets and juniors are the children of highly educated people.  There are a few girls at my club trying there hardest to make the US cadet and junior teams.  They are really good (but not quite as good as their counterparts in California).  Best of all, they are really nice people.  In a couple of years, they will be off to university, and the club will miss something when they are gone.  



Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 12:17am
Tinykin is overthinking this. (But a valiant effort.) Table tennis simply doesn't have enough exposure and popularity with KIDS in the US to produce world class players proportionate with the population/talent pool.

Take swimming for example. There's no professional system, and other than the Olympics it's not a mainstream spectator sport, and it's not even huge in schools (swim lessons and youth competitions are private funded mostly and kids develop talent outside of school setting, although it's a high school sport), yet competitive swimming is still very popular with kids and the U.S. has been turning out more world class swimmers than any country for years. (The only realistic upside to swimming is you can get a university scholarship doing it.)

It's really that simple.

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Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 12:35am
Well I was making the point about swimming not having many reasons to be so popular, and hence produce talented athletes. (But alas it does have one big upside to motivate kids to do it other than because it's fun.)

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Posted By: Toprank
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 12:42am
Interesting discussion. Realize, I'm only completing my fourth year of table tennis, and although my experience is low compared to many on the board, I've become very addicted to the sport.

I take no offense to what Malin from Greece is saying. I think he's only saying, very directly, that match for a national championship doesn't measure to many other countries national championships. I think most of us agree. To many Americans we know the story of Jim Butler and really he might be the best homegrown U.S. player in the last 30 years. I really think Table Tennis missed a whole generation or two in the United States. One of the old guys I play with said there didn't used to be "so many kids at the nationals". I told him it was a good thing that there seems to be so many more kids than 20 years ago, he didn't agree.

I do think U.S. table tennis dipped to new lows in the last 10 years, from what I can tell. I do think you'll see improvement because of clubs like ICC, SVTTC, WCTTA and LYTTC. They seem to be getting a lot more kids than my generation.

Regarding Tinykin's comments. I agree 100%. I do think people, from Eurupe, underestimate the interest United States has in our 3 favorite sports of U.S. football, baseball and basketball. That's what Americans care about and nothing will change that. Now Americans like ping pong, but don't know table tennis, let alone seen a real match start to finish. That's a major obstacle. If the sports ever expects to grow I think getting in the high school sports system would make the biggest progress...unfortunately that's not happening.

I do agree the tournaments we have and the rating system (although flawed in some respects) we have sounds better than most. A Chinese individual I play with sometimes says it's a better system for amateurs than what they have in China, I was surprised by this.

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CURRENT BLADE- Ross Leidy White Lightning

FH- Haifu Blue Whale II

BH- Xiom Vega Europe


Posted By: huri
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 5:57am
Jim could have been better than #70, much more better haven't he been injured. He had the right players to train with, world class coach and right mentality .... and that sick bachhand shot.  It's really such a shame. 

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Dhs PG 7 FL, 90g
DHS H3 National 2.15 40°,Dian Chi applied
Tenergy 05 FX 1.9


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 9:58am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

...in other words what you minimized in parenthesis is in fact a major factor if not one of the most important to develop: making sure colleges and universities offer scholarships to talented players.
Parents do a huge non-stop 12 years effort (6 to 18 years old), pouring between 10,000 and 20,000 a year and then it's time for schools to pick up the tab; it's that simple.


Well, the practical challenge to this is that people think that colleges bring in tons of money with their athletics programs, but the fact is that all but about 60 are actually losing money on those programs and are cutting them back.  (The athletics program at the large state university where I teach currently is running about an $8 million deficit).  Only football and basketball bring in money, and only then at schools that can get >40,000 people to attend their football games and whose games are regularly televised.  Many schools no longer have scholarship programs in swimming, track, tennis, wrestling, gymnastics, etc. that used to be more or less universal (that includes athletic powerhouses in so-called major conferences) and they are not going to add more sports, and if they do, it won't likely be table tennis.  It is unfortunate.  It would solve  the problem if universities did offer scholarships for TT.  It might not take a lot of them to do it to make a difference.   


Posted By: Red24601
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

...in other words what you minimized in parenthesis is in fact a major factor if not one of the most important to develop: making sure colleges and universities offer scholarships to talented players.
Parents do a huge non-stop 12 years effort (6 to 18 years old), pouring between 10,000 and 20,000 a year and then it's time for schools to pick up the tab; it's that simple.


Well, the practical challenge to this is that people think that colleges bring in tons of money with their athletics programs, but the fact is that all but about 60 are actually losing money on those programs and are cutting them back.  (The athletics program at the large state university where I teach currently is running about an $8 million deficit).  Only football and basketball bring in money, and only then at schools that can get >40,000 people to attend their football games and whose games are regularly televised.  Many schools no longer have scholarship programs in swimming, track, tennis, wrestling, gymnastics, etc. that used to be more or less universal (that includes athletic powerhouses in so-called major conferences) and they are not going to add more sports, and if they do, it won't likely be table tennis.  It is unfortunate.  It would solve  the problem if universities did offer scholarships for TT.  It might not take a lot of them to do it to make a difference.   


Baal - do you know how gymnastics and figure skating do it, where the US rates highly in these international sports? Is there a govt sponsored system in place to identify people at an early age and train them (at govts expense or subsidized) to compete at the international level? i know for example that Bela Karolyi trained the US gymnastics team for the longest time. But who paid for the gymnasts' training (Nastia Liukin, Shawn Johnson, Gabby Douglas, etc) BEFORE they were on the Olympic team --- was it a US subsidized program? or did the parents need to pay up to a certain point? I use gymnastics and figure skating as the example because (like swimming) they are sports that do not get national attention in the US very much except when the Olympics arrive.


Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

...in other words what you minimized in parenthesis is in fact a major factor if not one of the most important to develop: making sure colleges and universities offer scholarships to talented players.
Parents do a huge non-stop 12 years effort (6 to 18 years old), pouring between 10,000 and 20,000 a year and then it's time for schools to pick up the tab; it's that simple.


Well, the practical challenge to this is that people think that colleges bring in tons of money with their athletics programs, but the fact is that all but about 60 are actually losing money on those programs and are cutting them back.  (The athletics program at the large state university where I teach currently is running about an $8 million deficit).  Only football and basketball bring in money, and only then at schools that can get >40,000 people to attend their football games and whose games are regularly televised.  Many schools no longer have scholarship programs in swimming, track, tennis, wrestling, gymnastics, etc. that used to be more or less universal (that includes athletic powerhouses in so-called major conferences) and they are not going to add more sports, and if they do, it won't likely be table tennis.  It is unfortunate.  It would solve  the problem if universities did offer scholarships for TT.  It might not take a lot of them to do it to make a difference.   

Offering free education is a plus but it doesn't translate that a minor sport suddenly gains national attention and grows a pro league  or gets local and national media attention. TT is not a popular sport in the U.S. and the USATT and ITTF need to stop dumbing down the game in an attempt to widen its appeal.  


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:31am
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/paydirt/2012/08/07/the-true-cost-of-making-the-olympics/" rel="nofollow - http://blogs.marketwatch.com/paydirt/2012/08/07/the-true-cost-of-making-the-olympics/

"Think about U.S. swimmer Ryan Lochte, whose divorced parents are facing the foreclosure of their Florida home. Or U.S. gymnast Gabby Douglas, whose mother filed for bankruptcy earlier this year. One of four children, Douglas all but acknowledged earlier this week how her budding Olympic career took an economic toll. “It was definitely hard on my mom, taking care of me and my siblings,” she told the New York Post.

Indeed, experts say raising an Olympian — or seeking Olympic glory on one’s own — is an extremely pricey proposition, especially when measured over the period of years it takes to get to and then compete at the games. At best, say athletes and others connected to the Olympics, it’s easily a six-figure “investment” – with no guarantee of a “return” (meaning a medal or an endorsement deal) – when factoring in the costs of equipment, coaching and travel.

Making the situation all the more difficult for U.S. athletes: there’s no direct federal support, as is the case in most other nations. Instead, top-tier competitors can only hope to receive small stipends – often as little as $400 a month — to cover expenses, with the money generally coming from the privately funded governing boards of their sports or through sponsorships. "

etc.etc.


Posted By: vivan4tt
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 2:44pm
This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).

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Mizutani sZLC / T05fx / T05fx


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).
lol the frenchies are having fun...

http://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/sujet-65325-1.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/sujet-65325-1.html

the reason the final does not look super high level is that Mr. Butler is choking the kid; Both are able to "look like" much higher level than that when given opponents who let them shine.


People who don't understand table tennis say all kinds of nonsense.  One can watch two defenders play each other and estimate their ratings at 600 each.  For some people, a match is low level if you don't see counterlooping rallies, forgetting that the real question is whether both players want to enter such rallies or not.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 3:01pm
When they do a short form video of the final, we should watch it side by side with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGTKjDXhQc


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: cje
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

When they do a short form video of the final, we should watch it side by side with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGTKjDXhQc


oh, how embarrassing ... a guy over 40 in a National Championship final...


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http://www.murrayfieldtt.com/



YEO/ Galaxy E-3/ FH: Skyline III Neo / BH: Palio HK 1997


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by cje cje wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

When they do a short form video of the final, we should watch it side by side with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGTKjDXhQc


oh, how embarrassing ... a guy over 40 in a National Championship final...

Yeah.  Lots of chopping and fishing too.  Missed serves and pushes.  This is regular high level table tennis, of course.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vivan4tt
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).
lol the frenchies are having fun...

http://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/sujet-65325-1.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/sujet-65325-1.html

the reason the final does not look super high level is that Mr. Butler is choking the kid; Both are able to "look like" much higher level than that when given opponents who let them shine.


Many 1800 vs 1800 matchs in France are also looking far better than this US final, don't think the people don't know that. And thats why i said the level of this match, I don't said the level of the players. 

But don't underestimate a French player rated 1800 points. France is 110k competitive players, only 1% of them are 2000+ points in France, the medium number of points is 707 in France (55k player are above 707 points, 55k players are under 707 points). 1800 points is a very good level, your are part of the ~3-4% of the best. 

With all my repect NextLevel, I think you know nothing about the level of an average 1800 points player in France.

Couldn't find entire match videos, its easy to find pro videos but common mortal videos are harder to find :D But here is a video of player playing in Regional 2 in France, this is the 8th league in France (ProA proB, N1, N2, N3, PN, R1, R2), people in this division are about 1500-1600 points on average (and usually a 1500-1600 points player stands no chance against a 1800 one of course, a 1800 player is a clear level above a 1600 one)  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZOy9J1N0



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Mizutani sZLC / T05fx / T05fx


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).


I may not know a lot, but one thing I know for sure is that Jim Butler would annihilate the #1000 ranked player in France 1000 out of 1000 times.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).
lol the frenchies are having fun...

http://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/sujet-65325-1.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tennis-de-table.com/forums/sujet-65325-1.html

the reason the final does not look super high level is that Mr. Butler is choking the kid; Both are able to "look like" much higher level than that when given opponents who let them shine.


Many 1800 vs 1800 matchs in France are also looking far better than this US final, don't think the people don't know that. And thats why i said the level of this match, I don't said the level of the players. 

But don't underestimate a French player rated 1800 points. France is 110k competitive players, only 1% of them are 2000+ points in France, the medium number of points is 707 in France (55k player are above 707 points, 55k players are under 707 points). 1800 points is a very good level, your are part of the ~3-4% of the best. 

With all my repect NextLevel, I think you know nothing about the level of an average 1800 points player in France.

Couldn't find entire match videos, its easy to find pro videos but common mortal videos are harder to find :D But here is a video of player playing in Regional 2 in France, this is the 8th league in France (ProA proB, N1, N2, N3, PN, R1, R2), people in this division are about 1500-1600 points on average (and usually a 1500-1600 points player stands no chance against a 1800 one of course, a 1800 player is a clear level above a 1600 one)  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZOy9J1N0


Don't use a phrase you don't mean.  Everyone looks good when allowed to play their best shots.  They also look good when they have played each other before, which was not the case here (in the Butler - Chodri match).

And you can't be seriously using match highlights to compare to a whole match.

If they can return Butler's serves, that will be the start.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vivan4tt
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).


I may not know a lot, but one thing I know for sure is that Jim Butler would annihilate the #1000 ranked player in France 1000 out of 1000 times.

For the "trill" i'll ask some pro and semi pro players that I know well, about this (Xu Gang is the best rated among them). Since I know the boss of a French TT retailers, he knows alot of pros also, he can ask them for me about this. 


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Mizutani sZLC / T05fx / T05fx


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

For the "trill" i'll ask some pro and semi pro players that I know well, about this (Xu Gang is the best rated among them). Since I know the boss of a French TT retailers, he knows alot of pros also, he can ask them for me about this. 


How old is Damien Eloi, and what is his level today? He lost to Jim Butler in the past (there's video of this somewhere).

Also, you may want to mention that in 2013 Kunal Chodri beat Hugo Calderano - even some Frenchmen may know who he is Wink

http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_full_story1.asp?ID=32367&Competition_ID=2234" rel="nofollow - http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_full_story1.asp?ID=32367&Competition_ID=2234


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 5:35pm
Vivantt,

That you have to ask shows how ridiculous you are being.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

This match had benn put into a french table tennis forum, they are according to tell that the level of this final is about ~1800 points (French Rating, for indication the player number 1000 in France has 2056 points).


I may not know a lot, but one thing I know for sure is that Jim Butler would annihilate the #1000 ranked player in France 1000 out of 1000 times.

For the "trill" i'll ask some pro and semi pro players that I know well, about this (Xu Gang is the best rated among them). Since I know the boss of a French TT retailers, he knows alot of pros also, he can ask them for me about this. 
I enjoy watch French table tennis. Especially when French players playing other French players. From watching them, it is my opinion - French style of play is about winning the points with style. I also see this in French tennis players. (My all time favourite tennis player is Henri LeConte - man never won a thing in his life - but the man had shots!!!!). 
In the USA it's exact opposite - they don't care how they play and what they do - as long as they can win the match. 
So I don't think it's a fair comparison. One is about playing with a lot of flair and style. The other one is just about figuring out a way to win!


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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: assam
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 6:10pm
In the french final the shots, the movements, the serve/receives were far better than those in US final. You guys, especially Next Level, are just tryin to put the players above what they can do. It was a very weak final with two medium players (one may have been good in the past and the other I really can't see him enter top 100, unless he would spend 2-3 years in China). Portuguese championships finals in the last 2 years haven't had the top 3 portuguese players, but they were far better than this final 


Posted By: naijachief
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 6:27pm
Christophe Legout was once a top 20 player, definitely way more accomplished than Jimmy ever was in my opinion. The fact is that our US nationals final was played by 2 high 2400/low 2500 players. That is why the match seems a bit slow. I can also see Chodri was a little hesitant to go for big shots because Jimmy was like a wall not letting anything get past him.
All those who want to laugh can laugh, we Americans have absolutely nothing to be ashamed about, we have never really been a dominant table tennis country. We have so many other superstars in much bigger sports.....Serena Williams, Lebron James, Tim Howard, Floyd Mayweather, Tiger Woods etc......

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who no know go know


Posted By: vivan4tt
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Vivantt,

That you have to ask shows how ridiculous you are being.

WHy this ? I'm just polite man, you are thinking that Jim Butler will destroy 1000 times over 1000 matches the #1000 (2056 points) in France, i think the opposite as you know. Since my word or the evaluation of compatriotes are the opposite of yours, maybe the analysis of a Chinese Player, from Chinese Superleague, in France since many years now, so able to clearly evaluate the equivalent French rating of this match. 

You know nothing about French TT level, I mean, honeslty from what I can see about the 2000-2200 USATT players (many complete matches on youtube, a ton), I would rate those player 1200-1500 in France, maximum. 

Who is the ridiculous one NextLevel ? Me, who have, i think, whatched FAR MORE many matches of US tournament, or you who knows nothing about the French tt level ? Just saying, without any analysis that 1800 french players won't be able to return serves done without a free wrist ? You have no idea of the level of a french 1800 player and still saying this...........that is what I call ridiculous Next Level. 

Despite this cockyness from your part (i'll forget the 1000 times annihilated of the French #1000, plus its not from yourself), I still wanna stay fair, and simply ask this to pros, since I can. Because yeah, I think i'm right about the level of this precise final (the level of the players in this and only precise match, I won't evaluate a player from only one match), once again. 


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Mizutani sZLC / T05fx / T05fx


Posted By: vivan4tt
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

For the "trill" i'll ask some pro and semi pro players that I know well, about this (Xu Gang is the best rated among them). Since I know the boss of a French TT retailers, he knows alot of pros also, he can ask them for me about this. 


How old is Damien Eloi, and what is his level today? He lost to Jim Butler in the past (there's video of this somewhere).

Also, you may want to mention that in 2013 Kunal Chodri beat Hugo Calderano - even some Frenchmen may know who he is Wink

http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_full_story1.asp?ID=32367&Competition_ID=2234" rel="nofollow - http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_full_story1.asp?ID=32367&Competition_ID=2234

How can this be relvelant, the ranking are done exactly to avoid those kind of evaluation like "he has beaten damien Eloi and JM Saive". Damien Eloi has beaten Wang Liqin many times (they also played in the same tt club in France). In no way I'll compare Eloi (once French national champ, 10 years ago in 2004) and Wang Liqin (3 times world champ), there are several class of difference between those two. 

If I tell a chinese how much Eloi is great, to not underestimate him, saying he has beaten several times Wang Liqin...etc.....man he will still tell me that Eloi is a minor player and his level is miles and miles away from Wang Liqin.


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Mizutani sZLC / T05fx / T05fx


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 8:03pm
Vivantt,

The whole point of ratings, like you said, is to avoid the precise kind of nonsenseyou are engaging in and pretending not to.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 8:12pm
I believe that a Nigerian who plays in France Mau be here on Sunday ay Westchester. His performance might help us balance ratings if there are no individuals we can use to benchmark.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:

For the "trill" i'll ask some pro and semi pro players that I know well, about this (Xu Gang is the best rated among them). Since I know the boss of a French TT retailers, he knows alot of pros also, he can ask them for me about this. 


How old is Damien Eloi, and what is his level today? He lost to Jim Butler in the past (there's video of this somewhere).

Also, you may want to mention that in 2013 Kunal Chodri beat Hugo Calderano - even some Frenchmen may know who he is Wink

http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_full_story1.asp?ID=32367&Competition_ID=2234" rel="nofollow - http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf_full_story1.asp?ID=32367&Competition_ID=2234

How can this be relvelant, the ranking are done exactly to avoid those kind of evaluation like "he has beaten damien Eloi and JM Saive". Damien Eloi has beaten Wang Liqin many times (they also played in the same tt club in France). In no way I'll compare Eloi (once French national champ, 10 years ago in 2004) and Wang Liqin (3 times world champ), there are several class of difference between those two. 

If I tell a chinese how much Eloi is great, to not underestimate him, saying he has beaten several times Wang Liqin...etc.....man he will still tell me that Eloi is a minor player and his level is miles and miles away from Wang Liqin.


Surely you can see that someone who has EVER beaten Damien Eloi (and also JO Waldner) and who is not dead is better than your current number 1000 in France -- your claim earlier.  Confused


Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 8:22pm
Out of curiosity, what level or ranking was Damien Provost back in France? He's doesn't have that much of a higher rating, and Jimmy has beaten dudes that have beaten Provost. I understand that doesn't count for a ton, but they're in the same ballpark.  

Also just to add.. the 1000th best player in France being better is pretty ridiculous. What do you think the world ranking would be of the 1000th best player in france? 


Posted By: Toprank
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what level or ranking was Damien Provost back in France? He's doesn't have that much of a higher rating, and Jimmy has beaten dudes that have beaten Provost. I understand that doesn't count for a ton, but they're in the same ballpark.  

Also just to add.. the 1000th best player in France being better is pretty ridiculous. What do you think the world ranking would be of the 1000th best player in france? 


Damien Provost would probably be the most qualified, due to his experience in both countries, to answer to the question how many Frenchies can beat Jim Butler? Provost did beat Butler in the 2013 Cary Cup pretty easily.

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CURRENT BLADE- Ross Leidy White Lightning

FH- Haifu Blue Whale II

BH- Xiom Vega Europe


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 8:45pm
Here is what it says on Damien Provost's website:
7 times French champion by team (but surely this can't be in the top league, is it?)
5 times French vice-champion by team

2 times French vice-champion single
1 times French champion junior single
Finalist of the French Young Open
He was #65 in France in 2007 and his junior championship was in 2002.

He lost to Li Kewei last year (who also lives in Houston).  Jim has split his matches with Li Kewei.

So no, based on this, the#1000 guy in France has no chance against Jim Butler, or the very young guy he beat who has a win over Hugo Calderano (even though the match in the finals of the nationals was pretty ugly).

This is pretty silly, actually.


Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 9:28pm
Hmm hopefully the 1000th ranked French player is not J.P. Gatien! LOL

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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 10:17pm
I hope that the European skeptics get the point that most club tournaments in the major playing centers (in NY, NJ & CA) always have players (that currently reside in the US) higher rated than both of the finalists? A lot of them are ex-CNT whether they were ZJK's practice partners (Tao Whenzhang?) or Wang Hao's partner / roommate (like Kewei). Some (like Kewei Li & Bochao Li) have played in European Leagues for a few seasons. So, the questioning European members can get decent sparring partners here if they have similar quality game.

The US (like many European countries) is a sports crazed place with great athletes in those sports of interest. TT is nowhere in the totem pole of an average American's interests & is not a school sport. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of people here were unaware that TT is a sport.

Out here, students get scholarships to prestigious colleges in many other sports, not in TT (except for Princeton). After that, there are many jobs (in Silicon Valley, medicine or finance) that shall pay a boatload. Why would a kid dream of earning $500 at a local tournament instead of the millions he would get in the NFL / NHL / NBA / baseball? So, don't try to correlate expected playing level with population.

In an interview (on YouTube?) Crystal Wang (the 12 year finalist in the women's at the nationals) was asked her TT goals. She did'nt state any world ranking target - just that she hoped that her TT play would help her get into a good college. That's the way it is going to be (unless larrytt can work a miracle).

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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: Dr.Cho
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:16pm
What rubbers does jim butler use?
Thanks


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by vivan4tt vivan4tt wrote:


You know nothing about French TT level, I mean, honeslty from what I can see about the 2000-2200 USATT players (many complete matches on youtube, a ton), I would rate those player 1200-1500 in France, maximum. 


It is REALLY pointless to try and guess tournament strength or rating of a player by looking at videos. It's been done many times mostly with ridiculous results.

Also - on your rating comparison. You are not too close there. I played in France a couple of times and two experienced players estimated my rating around 1700 FTT (my approximate USATT rating is around 2000). And I am nothing special, quite an average 2000 USATT player with two inverted and no funny tricks.

Just take a short trip, come and play. We'll be happy to show you  the sights, and play a few games with you. That's what vacations are for! Smile


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


So no, based on this, the#1000 guy in France has no chance against Jim Butler, or the very young guy he beat who has a win over Hugo Calderano (even though the match in the finals of the nationals was pretty ugly).

This is pretty silly, actually.


Of course it is silly. Big smile

In any case, Jim's ITTF ranking is around 500-600. My guess is that makes his ranking lower than, perhaps, thirty French players... at most.


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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/24/2014 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


So no, based on this, the#1000 guy in France has no chance against Jim Butler, or the very young guy he beat who has a win over Hugo Calderano (even though the match in the finals of the nationals was pretty ugly).

This is pretty silly, actually.


Of course it is silly. Big smile

In any case, Jim's ITTF ranking is around 500-600. My guess is that makes his ranking lower than, perhaps, thirty French players... at most.

This doesn't tell the whole story as not every good player in France has a chance to play for an ITTF ranking.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 12:10am
Originally posted by assam assam wrote:

In the french final the shots, the movements, the serve/receives were far better than those in US final. You guys, especially Next Level, are just tryin to put the players above what they can do. It was a very weak final with two medium players (one may have been good in the past and the other I really can't see him enter top 100, unless he would spend 2-3 years in China). Portuguese championships finals in the last 2 years haven't had the top 3 portuguese players, but they were far better than this final 

Sure the French players are far better - but you know that because you know the players, or you know that by watching the match?  If the latter, then you are guilty of exactly what I am trying to disabuse people of - you can't easily guess the level of the players by watching a single match because you don't know what goes into it.   And if you believe you can, good for you.  I know better.

I watched the first semifinal between Jim Butler and Mark Hazinski live in person (on the same day) and another junior player (about USATT 2500 who was eliminated in an earlier round) complained about how bad and boring that match was and the complaints were in part driven by the exact direction in which Jim took the match, which was similar to the direction in which he took the final - lots of fighting for the first attack and slowing the game down to get a tactical advantage whenever possible.  

If you watch Chodri play Xiao in the 2nd semifinal, you will see that the play is more open.  That match is of a lower quality than the final, but most people will like it more because there is more open play, though both matches are not that great.  My point is that unfortunately, people will confuse open and athletic play with playing level when the two are not necessarily the same - since I don't play a physical game and I try to prey on tactical weaknesses, I appreciate this more than most.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 12:12am
Originally posted by naijachief naijachief wrote:

Christophe Legout was once a top 20 player, definitely way more accomplished than Jimmy ever was in my opinion. The fact is that our US nationals final was played by 2 high 2400/low 2500 players. That is why the match seems a bit slow. I can also see Chodri was a little hesitant to go for big shots because Jimmy was like a wall not letting anything get past him.
All those who want to laugh can laugh, we Americans have absolutely nothing to be ashamed about, we have never really been a dominant table tennis country. We have so many other superstars in much bigger sports.....Serena Williams, Lebron James, Tim Howard, Floyd Mayweather, Tiger Woods etc......
Come on, there are faster matches between 2400 and 2500 players - even the French finals has some extended periods of fishing and lobbing and slow points.  It's more about how Jim Butler wanted to steer the finals and that Kunal lacked the experience to resist.

Finally, at the risk of making one too many excuses, Vegas is extremely high altitude and this is the first tournament with the Nittaku Premium Japanese ball.  That made people have to deal with less spin and balls going long in a novel way.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: thethinker
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 2:09am
Finally able to see the entire match. May be the young kid can play Butler like ZJK play Samsonov, fh 2 fh rallies, since he (Chodri) has the better fh of the two...


Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 4:06am
A much better version of the French National Championships 2014 final match:

Stéphane Ouaiche vs Christophe Legout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZd0p0qHho" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPZd0p0qHho


Posted By: Olio
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 5:05am
Fatt, I wouldn't be so sure as Legout is 42 with world ranking #108 (French #4). ;) And Eloi is just ahead of him in the French rankings (#3). I think they would both win vs Jim. They are still active athletes who have never stopped training, and still compete at international level.
Damien Provost is French #32 (just as a reference, as he's not over 40)
Olivier Marmurek is #43
But this is just to say I don't want you to lose your house on a stupid bet ;)

However, Jim Butler is a good player (big understatement here!) and I'm sorry Vivan, but there is no way he will loose to FR #1000. He would likely be (without more training) within top 200. I write this very carefully and cautiously, as there is no point of comparison at the moment. He might very well be within top 100 or 50.

Jacques Secretin is still #370 in France, and I imagine he wouldn't be that impressive to watch on a youtube video.

A national final with 2 opponents like these, who don't really know each other, with opposite styles, might not be a great show with rallies like ML and ZJK.
Clearly one of the points made above is valid: did they even want to go into fast pace rallies? Jim didn't.


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 5:47am
Just to put things into perspective, Jim Butler is ranked #42 in the U.S. among active players.  Many players in the U.S. ranked higher than Butler are legal U.S. residents, but are not allowed to compete in the Nationals until they become U.S. citizens, which can take up to ten years:

1 89338 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=76389" rel="nofollow - Zhang, Xiang Jing 2732 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6042&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 10/19/2014
2 92851 01/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80215" rel="nofollow - Shi, Mingyu 2732 GA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5831&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 3/16/2014
3 93379 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80766" rel="nofollow - Chen, Bob 2730 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
4 87343 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=74270" rel="nofollow - Tao, Wenzhang 2713 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
5 94688 10/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=82153" rel="nofollow - Zi Rui, Zhao 2710 NJ http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6022&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/28/2014
6 88420 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=75418" rel="nofollow - Liang, Yonghui 2690 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
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11 94609 10/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=82120" rel="nofollow - Wang, Jinxin 2636 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
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19 77031 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=62678" rel="nofollow - Molla, Zaman 2577 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6085&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/22/2014
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21 80605 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=66864" rel="nofollow - Kashyap, Anal 2574 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
22 79297 06/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=65403" rel="nofollow - Zhang, Weijian 2571 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5891&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 5/10/2014
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24 26160 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=25833" rel="nofollow - Huang, Jeff Lin 2547 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5994&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/17/2014
25 75481 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=60833" rel="nofollow - Wang, Siliang (Steven) 2545 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5462&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 2/17/2013
26 75317 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=60633" rel="nofollow - Piyadasa, Thilina 2540 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5969&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/3/2014
27 8102 10/31/2016 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=7896" rel="nofollow - Shao, Yu 2539 NY http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5943&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 6/29/2014
28 8683 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=8477" rel="nofollow - Nguyen, Khoa Dinh 2535 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6014&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/27/2014
29 62727 12/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=42627" rel="nofollow - Eider, Cory 2533 NJ http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5835&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 3/16/2014
30 88265 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=75254" rel="nofollow - Wang, Qing Liang 2533 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6077&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/16/2014
31 93648 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80989" rel="nofollow - Chen, Keda 2533 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
32 88271 06/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=75260" rel="nofollow - Chen, Bo Wen 2528 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6077&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/16/2014
33 44775 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=29982" rel="nofollow - Reed, Barney J. 2524 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5389&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/4/2012
34 1819 05/31/2019 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=1631" rel="nofollow - Xiao, Han 2521 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
35 93791 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=81216" rel="nofollow - Jin, Yuxiang 2520 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
36 93792 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=81272" rel="nofollow - Zhu, Jiajun 2517 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
37 9051 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=8845" rel="nofollow - Dubina, Samson 2514 OH http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6056&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 10/26/2014
38 73487 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=58858" rel="nofollow - Najem, Alfred 2514 UT http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5886&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 5/4/2014
39 9870 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=9662" rel="nofollow - Seemiller, Daniel R. 2509 IN http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6090&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/30/2014
40 86458 05/31/2017 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=73277" rel="nofollow - Qi, Wei 2507 MN http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6011&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/21/2014
41 89566 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=76643" rel="nofollow - Guan, Weida 2505 TX http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5994&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/17/2014
42 4594 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=4396" rel="nofollow - Butler, Jim 2499 TX http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6086&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/22/2014



-------------
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red



Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 6:39am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I am almost sure Jim Butler can take on and win any French player same age as him or older.
For crying out loud he barely beat a 15year US player. Let's be reasonable!


-------------
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: j-bo
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 9:10am
Lets put it this way. Butler was the 15th highest ranked player in the tournament and ended up winning it.

An underdogs dream!

I don't care what their ratings were in the final. They got there. They can't control who enters the tournament.

Butler did all that he could do. He won!


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 9:22am
To be complete, and to put things in more perspective, you need to note that for most of the last year, Jim has been well above 2550 and as recently as September of this year was 2628.  Somehow he managed to lose 105 rating points at one tournament in Fort Worth (including a loss to Mark Hazinski).  Also, some of the people on RR's list of active players are only minimally active.


Posted By: malin87
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 9:32am
Guys the whole conversation here is not about Butler and who is Butler..Don't argue for if he can win against some French 1000 players..The matter here is that we all watched a US national final and we were dissapointed about the level of the match..I think even Butler who practiced table tennis 4 years out of the last 20(as you informed me) wouldn't be proud about the level of the sport he served in his country..

-------------
Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21


Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 10:02am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Just to put things into perspective, Jim Butler is ranked #42 in the U.S. among active players.  Many players in the U.S. ranked higher than Butler are legal U.S. residents, but are not allowed to compete in the Nationals until they become U.S. citizens, which can take up to ten years:

1 89338 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=76389" rel="nofollow - Zhang, Xiang Jing 2732 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6042&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 10/19/2014
2 92851 01/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80215" rel="nofollow - Shi, Mingyu 2732 GA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5831&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 3/16/2014
3 93379 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80766" rel="nofollow - Chen, Bob 2730 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
4 87343 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=74270" rel="nofollow - Tao, Wenzhang 2713 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
5 94688 10/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=82153" rel="nofollow - Zi Rui, Zhao 2710 NJ http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6022&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/28/2014
6 88420 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=75418" rel="nofollow - Liang, Yonghui 2690 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
7 93434 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80822" rel="nofollow - Geng, Shupeng 2676 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5992&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/14/2014
8 92739 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80104" rel="nofollow - Yang, XinYang 2661 NJ http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
9 86637 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=73464" rel="nofollow - Zhang, Kai 2659 NY http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6088&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/23/2014
10 18537 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=18216" rel="nofollow - Wang, Timothy 2643 TX http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
11 94609 10/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=82120" rel="nofollow - Wang, Jinxin 2636 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
12 58322 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=38436" rel="nofollow - Zhuang, David Yong-Xiang 2629 NJ http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6062&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/1/2014
13 54107 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=34524" rel="nofollow - Cheng, Yinghua 2614 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5410&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/25/2012
14 86560 11/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=73387" rel="nofollow - Liang, Jishan 2610 NY http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6088&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/23/2014
15 93450 04/30/2016 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80844" rel="nofollow - Chen, Ruichao L 2606 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6077&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/16/2014
16 31196 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=28849" rel="nofollow - Owens, Eric 2591 IL http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5959&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/26/2014
17 93438 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80826" rel="nofollow - Huang, Zihong 2590 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5994&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/17/2014
18 74600 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=59785" rel="nofollow - Zeng, Jeffrey Xun 2585 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5920&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 6/14/2014
19 77031 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=62678" rel="nofollow - Molla, Zaman 2577 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6085&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/22/2014
20 35040 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=54362" rel="nofollow - Feng, Yijun 2577 GA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6060&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/1/2014
21 80605 12/31/2014 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=66864" rel="nofollow - Kashyap, Anal 2574 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6094&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 12/7/2014
22 79297 06/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=65403" rel="nofollow - Zhang, Weijian 2571 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5891&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 5/10/2014
23 89328 01/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=76379" rel="nofollow - Zhang, Yi Chi 2549 MS http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6056&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 10/26/2014
24 26160 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=25833" rel="nofollow - Huang, Jeff Lin 2547 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5994&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/17/2014
25 75481 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=60833" rel="nofollow - Wang, Siliang (Steven) 2545 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5462&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 2/17/2013
26 75317 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=60633" rel="nofollow - Piyadasa, Thilina 2540 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5969&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/3/2014
27 8102 10/31/2016 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=7896" rel="nofollow - Shao, Yu 2539 NY http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5943&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 6/29/2014
28 8683 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=8477" rel="nofollow - Nguyen, Khoa Dinh 2535 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6014&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/27/2014
29 62727 12/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=42627" rel="nofollow - Eider, Cory 2533 NJ http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5835&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 3/16/2014
30 88265 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=75254" rel="nofollow - Wang, Qing Liang 2533 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6077&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/16/2014
31 93648 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=80989" rel="nofollow - Chen, Keda 2533 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
32 88271 06/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=75260" rel="nofollow - Chen, Bo Wen 2528 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6077&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/16/2014
33 44775 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=29982" rel="nofollow - Reed, Barney J. 2524 CA http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5389&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/4/2012
34 1819 05/31/2019 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=1631" rel="nofollow - Xiao, Han 2521 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
35 93791 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=81216" rel="nofollow - Jin, Yuxiang 2520 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
36 93792 05/31/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=81272" rel="nofollow - Zhu, Jiajun 2517 MD http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5945&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 7/5/2014
37 9051 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=8845" rel="nofollow - Dubina, Samson 2514 OH http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6056&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 10/26/2014
38 73487 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=58858" rel="nofollow - Najem, Alfred 2514 UT http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5886&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 5/4/2014
39 9870 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=9662" rel="nofollow - Seemiller, Daniel R. 2509 IN http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6090&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/30/2014
40 86458 05/31/2017 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=73277" rel="nofollow - Qi, Wei 2507 MN http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6011&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 9/21/2014
41 89566 04/30/2015 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=76643" rel="nofollow - Guan, Weida 2505 TX http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=5994&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 8/17/2014
42 4594 12/31/9999 http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Phistory.asp?Pid=4396" rel="nofollow - Butler, Jim 2499 TX http://216.119.100.169/history/rating/History/Tall.asp?Tid=6086&SBy=LastName+Asc" rel="nofollow - 11/22/2014


How many of these players are not allowed to compete in the US Nationals?



Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 10:07am
Originally posted by malin87 malin87 wrote:

Guys the whole conversation here is not about Butler and who is Butler..Don't argue for if he can win against some French 1000 players..The matter here is that we all watched a US national final and we were dissapointed about the level of the match..I think even Butler who practiced table tennis 4 years out of the last 20(as you informed me) wouldn't be proud about the level of the sport he served in his country..

I have given two reasons why that are not apparent in the video - the match is played at high altitude in Vegas where the air is very thin so players are very careful with their shots, and the ball is the new Nittaku plastic which slows the game down.  People have only been using it for a month or less.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 12/25/2014 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also, some of the people on RR's list of active players are only minimally active.


And quite a few of them are not really US players. They came to the US for 6 mos or a year for a kind of a "commercial" break - then they head back home to Hongkong or China or Taiwan etc. The fact that they are listed under CA or GA or NY really doesn't mean anything - those are just addresses they have registered with USATT when they bought one-year license.


-------------
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member

Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...



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