There was this boy, probably around 8, playing his matches with noticeably good strokes and a healthy competitive attitude, but with obviously illegal serve (no toss at all).  After seeing the kid play game after game with consitently illegal service motion, I approached the parent, after he was done taking videos of his kid.  I then carefully pointed out the issue.

To what I said, he replied with something like, "I am a ranked player, and I coach my son.  I do know that his service motion is illegal.  However, he is not feeling well today, so I'm giving him a break and letting him serve as he wants.  But thank you for your comment, ...".  

Nice guy, he handled my comment well.

I initially thought what the parent said was okay.  But on second thought, wasn't this doing a disservice to the kid? For he is allowed to acquire a bad habit, that he has to unlearn for sure, if he wants to play sanctioned events later on.  Unlearning bad habits, from my experience, is, over the long-term, harder than learning good ones from the start, even if the good habits are harder to get started with.

When I was first learning TT, I appreciated all the free advice that was coming my way, however, now that I'm more knowledgeable about the sport - I've realized 80% of the free advice was incorrect. 

At any rate, most people don't appreciate strangers telling them what their kids are doing is wrong.

And, probably everybody can use this advice: don't offer advice to other TT players unless it's asked for. Like jrscatman, much of the advice given to me over the years was dead wrong. Frankly, most TT players in the US haven't learned from decent coaches and they merely promulgate their bad habits and wrong-headed notions to others. I remember meeting a "coach" who had about a 900 USTTA ranking and I almost fell over when he showed me how teaches his students to "loop". 

He wanted the players to serve in the "grey zone" - ball toss very close to 6 inches, toss not exactly straight, palms - not completely flat, try to hide ball with the body....etc. But don't do it in such a way so that people will say it's illegal....but he wanted people to ask the question was it legal? 

As I mentioned he was high level coach - as a beginner, it was too much for me - I just started serving legally. At the time I found it too confusing to worry about illegal stuff. But I guess as you go up in levels all the little things make a difference. 

Note: As one of the posters told me in a previous thread - if you serve on the borderline - be careful when you use it. Also, what type of umpire might be calling the match. You don't want to get called on a serve on a match point against you. 

In a match I faced an opponent who served illegally (off his hands) to teach him a lesson, I decided to serve illegally as well....to my surprise I found I couldn't serve illegally - either I missed the serve completely or I had trouble placing it correctly, went back to legal serving. 

I interpret it as "do whatever you can get away with."  Probably great advice from the pragmatic angle.  Not so hot from the sportsmanship angle.

Nah.  I don't think so.  The fish rots from the head down.  If ITTF umpires don't enforce the rules, then we'll see illegal serves further on down the ranks.  Aspiring players copy top players.

Practice, practice, practice ... ;^)

C'mon berndt_mann, your joking makes it seem like such illegal serving didn't exist back in those golden daze of hardbat nirvana.  We all know there was all sorts of crappy no-toss serving et al back then.  Perhaps this is an integral part of your game that you can't survive without?  Maybe you implement one of those crappy serves where you put "english" on the ball by spinning it off the bat right out of your hand?

C'mon, be honest without the high'n mighty bull.  

C'mon berndt_mann, your joking makes it seem like such illegal serving didn't exist back in those golden daze of hardbat nirvana.  We all know there was (sic) all sorts of crappy no-toss serving et al back then.  Perhaps this is an integral part of your game that you can't survive without?  Maybe you implement one of those crappy serves where you put "english" on the ball by spinning it off the bat right out of your hand?

C'mon, be honest without the high'n mighty bull.  

In the First Golden Days of hardbat nirvana (roughly 1931-1939) many of us know that knuckle-spin and finger-spin servers were employed and were devilishly hard to return, but were banned by the ITTF in the late 1930s.  A sharp practice yes, but perfectly legal until the ITTF and the USTTA decided to ban them.

http://www.allabouttabletennis.com/table-tennis-history.htm

Finger spin serves had become so popular during the 1930s that the ITTF decided that, in the best interests of the game, they should change the service rule and make them illegal.

The service rule at the time stated...

The service shall be delivered by the server projecting or dropping the ball by hand only, without deliberate deformation of the surface, into the air.

And the new wording was...

The service shall be delivered by the server releasing the ball by hand only, without imparting of spin, into the air.

Additionally, umpires were instructed that any form of spin imparted by anything other than the racket, was prohibited ... AND that if they were in any doubt about the serve, that they must order any player to use an open and flat serving hand, with the fingers straight and together, and the thumb free.

Gee.  How did I manage to win, from age 59 to age 62, 2 U-1500 HB U.S. Open Singles Championships, one U-1500 HB National Championship, and one North American U-1500
Championship, plus being a finalist in one U.S. Open U-1500 HB Championship, losing to my good friend Hermann Luechinger, one of Switzerland's better junior players in the Second Golden Days of HB nirvana (1946-1953)?  Must have been by using crappy serves where I put Irish-Prussian on the ball by spinning it off my bat right out of my hand.

It's not what we know; it's what we think we know that ain't true.

still weren't really called though.

Was the question of offering advice the topic of this thread?  It will be good for lively discussion for sure - in another thread.  You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but let's keep focus here.  :)

In this specific case I would agree with the coach and the parent. It is very confusing for juniors to receive conflicting advice from different sources.

You said in a later post that you had trouble serving illegally, because you got so used to serving legally.  But it goes both ways : one will have trouble serving legally, if they are so used to serving illegally.  So, it means you agree with the coach/parent, that they allow their ward to get used to serving illegally, and later have trouble trying to serve the correct way?  I'd be glad to hear how you would reconcile these posts. :)

I recall the boy was sniffling and coughing the whole time, but still wanted to play.  So he gets A for enthusiasm.

I'm of the same opinion as yours.  I can't imagine doing this to my own kid, even if it seems not a big deal.

I couldn't agree more.  And that's just one of the few undesirable behaviors I see in that place, when it comes to ethics - but those are for another thread.

Okay, thanks.  It makes more sense now, hearing that your opinions came from observation, and not actual experience. 

Yes, my level of play is no where near national level of any country! Can only watch how it's done at the top!

You've got some serious beer goggles on for the past days of Table Tennis.  You even brought up yourself the saga of knucklespin serves.  So, TT competitors had been looking for an edge way back when, just like they do today.

Perhaps it is because you don't play the modern game of TT that you don't understand that these issues of so-called illegal activity and equipment are just one relatively minor aspect of the game.  If anything though, this dishonorable behavior is more prevalent and has a bigger impact at the amateur level than the international level (which is not uncommon to any competitive sport).

You seem to keep pressing this argument that the HB game back in the day was clean and pure, and that should one of the greats of the past be able to come back to life and pick up one of these "cheater" paddles with sticky, boosted rubber, then they would certainly put these modern day masters of skullduggery to shame.  Popycock.

We like the modern game of TT with its element of super-spin variation.  You should give it a good-ole college try sometime, and you may discover how wonderful it is to experience an extra dimension to your old (and frankly outdated) TT game.

So, smiling, nodding politely and slowly backing away might not be a bad idea, just like in certain real life situations.

Sounds like a typical competitive tt parent. To quote Jesse Ventura, "It ain't cheating if the ref don't see it."

Bad coaching though. definitely bad coaching.

Depends! Some parents don't care if you cheat and steal, as long as you win. 

They could choose to teach the kids the way they want, but doesn't mean they haven't failed as parents if they passed on the the wrong ethics

Depends! If you are from Athens or Sparta.. You could say the same about parents that teach their children to be dumb sheep, obeying their masters, never leaving the herd.  

Never leaving the herd has it ad/disad vantages, but is ethically acceptable:  which culture teach it is ok to cheat and steal?

How about the professional sports culture?