Plastic ball, end of Tenergy for CNT?
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Topic: Plastic ball, end of Tenergy for CNT?
Posted By: vutiendat1337
Subject: Plastic ball, end of Tenergy for CNT?
Date Posted: 03/19/2015 at 11:03pm
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Eversince the plastic ball was introduced, we have seen some players dropping their performance(Dima) and some who stepped up(Timo) which could be debatable to a certain degree but what we know for sure is that CNT has taken measures to tackle the new ball. ML, XX and LSW abandoned the rubber evergreen Tenergy and switched to Hurricanes (possibly different sponge?). Any insights in why that is? I mean, in case of XX, it could more suitable for his BH, better control, etc. In my experiece, the plastic ball is heavier, harder to spin, wouldn't a spinny and grippy rubber like Tenergy work like a charm? Chinese rubber is tacky and would still spin it up but what about the lack of speed? I'd like to hear from EJ and experts here why they think a chinese rubber is better than Tenergy for the plastic ball era. ------------- bty petr korbel st fh: donic bluefire red bh: dawei iqul black USATT:1811 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40320&title=feedbackvutiendat1337" rel="nofollow - Feedback me |
Replies:
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 03/19/2015 at 11:09pm
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Elevengy for me ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/19/2015 at 11:39pm
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That's the grand scheme of the introduction of DHS' cellulose diacetate seamed ball. Fire hazard is merely a smokescreen. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/19/2015 at 11:43pm
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XX switched before the plastic ball came out - don't know why people like to forget this. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: vutiendat1337
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 12:08am
You are right. I forgot he switched before. ------------- bty petr korbel st fh: donic bluefire red bh: dawei iqul black USATT:1811 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40320&title=feedbackvutiendat1337" rel="nofollow - Feedback me |
NextLevel wrote:Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 12:54am
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didnt dhs already make an orange tenergy clone spring sponge with their national topsheet for the Chinese players? I read about it a week ago. -------------  "I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629 |
Posted By: schen
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 5:02am
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I think it mostly has to do with sponge hardness, although there are two contradicting theories to this that I've heard. The first theory (explained to me by Stellan Bengtsson) is that because the new plastic ball is more rigid and doesn't deform as much as the celluloid ball when struck, the sponge is more likely to bottom out and cause an erratic shot if attempting to spin the ball with anything more than a brush. This would call for harder sponges (like chinese sponges) to resist bottoming out, however that said softer sponges like the Tenergy sponge and most ESN sponges would be easier in terms of flatter hits. The hard sponge combined with a tacky topsheet would therefore give the highest spin potential for the plastic ball, especially if the CNT has developed some type of elastic/spring sponge of that hardness. The theory that contradicts that though (and would still make tenergy a contender) claims that because the ball size has increased by half a millimeter, the force of the ball impact would be dispersed over a larger surface area which would allow for more spin potential and prevent bottoming out to some degree because the sponge will be dealing with less pressure than it would with a smaller ball. In my own opinion, I think the minimal increase in surface area because of the ball's increase in size is not enough to prevent bottoming out from the force most international level players will hit the ball if the sponge is not very hard. I also think that the surface of the plastic balls does not have as much friction as the celluloid ball (I can't confirm this mathematically though, just a feeling) and the tackiness of chinese topsheets helps to prevent slippage. And a well boosted sheet of hurricane is no slouch in terms of speed, especially in the hands of world class players. Tenergy may be bouncier on most shots for less effort, but at the top gear hurricane wins by far (at least in terms of looping speed). ------------- http://bit.ly/1clQmfp" rel="nofollow - Feedback | http://bit.ly/1rcjTiH" rel="nofollow - FOR SALE - updated Mar 19 Dynasty / H3 / H3 |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 5:10am
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Schen makes some excellent points. I remember trying some older-gen soft ESN rubbers with plastic (Acuda S3 and Blit'z 42) - the feel was terrible, and it was exceptionally difficult to keep the arc of the ball consistent as the strength of shot increased. I had a definite feel of "slip", but it could just have been excessive bottoming out, or a combination of both. Hated the sensation anyway. I've had much more joy with hard sponge/soft topsheet ESN on the FH side (Omega V Pro and Asia), and with a mildly tacky topsheet (Big Dipper). Time to revisit Xiom Tau? ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 6:58am
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Have ZJK & FZD switched? I'm wondering if it's more to do with the high bounce of the new ball and high ball trajectory of Tenergies that is not desirable on BH for some of the CNT... Just a thought...? ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 7:36am
The CNT have been mostly using seamed 40+, which generally have a lower bounce than anything else around at the moment. I think it just comes down to the balance between grip and speed, plus the advancements DHS have made with their rubbers recently (different sponges available mainly).
It's all relative. They've been using Tenergy for ages (and some still are, and may do again), but now the ball is different. Across the board, grip is down, spin is down, speed is down. Players will feel the effects of all of this in different ways, depending on current technique and style. Some players will miss the grip on ball impact more than the speed loss, for example, because they can easily compensate with a bigger swing or taking the ball earlier, or a heavier boost. It's a very personal decision, depending on where a player feels the adjustment needs to be made. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 7:39am
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My guess would be more simple, since the people you see switching don't have BH as a relative strength (here comes 5 people telling me I'm wrong about Ma Long) and those rubbers reward a more active BH, and aren't as good for passive play. At least for males, examples are Wang Liqin, Xu Xin, and Ma Long. People who have yet to switch, as mentioned ZJK or FZD were noted for adjusting to the new ball much better than peers, and have more sophisticated BH's. Idk, the reason might be in there somewhere. I like schen's answer more though haha. I'm going to have my friend ask Yu Ziyang and Zhou Kai their opinions and hopefully shed some insight from a professional's POV.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 9:24am
The new balls these guys have to use at every tournament bounce lower. They may still be switching because of the new ball, but not because the ball jumps higher. |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 9:49am
Perhaps. But financial sense? ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 10:03am
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I usually focus on ball rotation - in practice, at least until recently, I had a very brushy loop for the most part. What I noticed when I compared Tenergy and Big Dipper was that I gripped the plastic ball better with Big Dipper. If we went back to the celluloid ball, I would be using 05 again. So I am of the view that there is a feeling of enhanced grip and spin that cones from using tacky rubbers with the new ball. It may be speed related but people should realize when it comes to speed that there is only so much table. The security of picking up the ball and expecting it to dip might have weighed on the minds of those who made the switch. I don't count XX because he switched with the cell ball. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 10:04am
Maybe he was planning ahead? .... LOL - just kidding. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 1:51pm
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> What I noticed when I compared Tenergy and Big Dipper was that I gripped the plastic ball better with Big Dipper. Big Dipper grips any ball or surface in general better than Tenergy. It was posted in another thread but the H3 they use is not that different from Tenergy. It's just bit more tacky and slower than the tuned pro T the CNT no doubt gets. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:22pm
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I have hit with the ultraboosted Hurricane of a professional Chinese table tennis player now living in the US on a Viscaria blade. It is nothing like playing with Tenergy 05 on the same kind of blade, even if we are talking about heavily boosted Tenergy. You need to make a significant change in the way you hit the ball to play with even heavily boosted Chinese rubbers. This is why there is probably not a single European player (meaning that's where they learned to play, not Chinese players who moved there later) in the world's top 200 who uses a Chinese rubber. This is not a judgment of value, because the results of Chinese players speak for themselves, but for the most part they have always played with that stuff since they were kids. Also, to fellow forum members, bear in mind that when AgentHEX writes in the horrible passive voice that he like to use -- "it was posted in another thread that..." -- he actually means "I posted that...". It's not like a burning bush appeared and the voice of Table Tennis God suddenly rang out to make another pronouncement. He likes to refer to himself as the authoritative basis for what he writes. |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:33pm
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National Hurricane is not just ultraboosted regular H3. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:34pm
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And yes, I am aware of that too. |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:36pm
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> bear in mind that when AgentHEX writes in the horrible passive voice that he like to use -- "it was posted in another thread that..." -- he actually means "I posted that...". I wasn't the only one to notice this, and for good reason given it's an objective fact. -- Frankly I'm not sure how "nobody uses H3 outside of china" is supposed to imply (which btw isn't strictly true given some very good players like Thomas Keinath used it). Nobody outside the CNT is going to get a consistency supply of H3National anyway, and euro pro players probably aren't going to use typical H3. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:49pm
Let me phrase it another way - Big Dipper's grip makes me feel like I am playing with the celluloid ball when I use it on plastic, something which Tenergy 05 did not make me feel like I was doing when I used it with the plastic ball. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 2:55pm
Can you separate the effect of the rubber/ball change from the changes you have been making to your mechanics? Have you tried T05 with your new swing? Not that you should, since you are getting great results with BD, I'm just curious.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 3:43pm
The rubber change took place months before the change in mechanics. I want to try 05 again but I can't justify the $65 - I tried it in January vs chop and block and I didn't see the difference for me to justify the $45 difference in price. I sold all my T05. Tried T80 and sold that too. The only situation where I want to test 05 now is off the bounce counterlooping. But I have seen enough about Big D to know that its great for people who want to spin more than hit - smashinglblocking requires practice and is controlled. This was with Chinese seamed by the way. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 7:54pm
Let's see how quickly AgentHEX fails to produce any data to support an "objective fact". Passive voice combined with subjective assessment - tools of the pseudo-scientist!
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Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 8:04pm
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Published papers deal with the edge of human knowledge. The fact that Prov and above H3s aren't the same thing as commercial is far more mundane. Christ, even Baal admits as much just above. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: beeray1
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 9:34pm
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hurricane/skyline national is not a holy grail rubber, it's not a different beast altogether than H3 most are familiar with. It's mostly the same thing. People either try to hype it up, or try to discount it. But it's not so unbelievably far off. It's the same breed. Plenty of professional non-cnt players in china play with stuff that we can get our hands on. Guess what? They do great! In spite of not having a supply of the stuff the CNT uses, they still use hurricane. Why? Because it's still basically the same thing, and it's still GOOD. Of course, they boost it with dianchi or seamoon, but that's kind of a given. If you've ever seen a legit blue sponge for example, felt one.. you know it's not anything like tenergy. Even compared to normal orange sponges that we see, it's a good deal firmer degree to degree. I don't think you quite understand how hard those guys hit. And how much do you think they boost it? It's not getting boosted to the point that it's a soft rubber. I know for a fact how much oil some of the CNT players use. It's less than you'd think.
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Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 10:53pm
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Can anyone elaborate on the differences between heavily (ultra :P ) boosted H3 and T05? How do they compare in speed and spin? |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 11:16pm
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/20/2015 at 11:47pm
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Of course that was jot the only time AgentHEX uses passive voice. National H3 is tackier. No matter how much you boost it you have to open your racket angle and it punishes passive strokes. It feels entirely different from T05. It felt different on the very first ball. It would take a long time to switch and be comfortable if you are used to Tenergy. Is it spinnier than T05? Maybe if you know how to play with it. Not if your stroke is built from a lifetime of Euro/Japanese rubbers. It is not identical to regular H3 but as others said, it is in the same family. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 1:10am
I've been experimenting with H3-50 on the FH (while retaining T05 on the BH). This is at the recommendation of a Chinese coach. I play with it for a few hours, get really irritated, and put it away again. During lesson time I can play with it fine but in match play it drives me crazy, especially the slowness even with boosting. I can waiting for somebody to explain to me the secret ingredient to using the stuff. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 1:43am
The main secret ingredient is to drive the ball and let the spin and extra margin do their work. The other secret is to push the ball short and deep early and often with great placement with the extra control.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 5:22am
It's the same breed in the sense that one can used as passable substitute for the other, but nobody who's gone up in the hierarchy is going to pleased to move down. Regular H3 appears to be formulated for durability at a price point; the tack can last for the long term if reasonably maintained, but nobody would ever accuse it of possessing speed. In comparison even unboosted the prov+ feels more like someone turned on auto-loop not unlike using Tenergy. > It felt different on the very first ball. It would take a long time to switch and be comfortable if you are used to Tenergy. Samsonov uses Grip-S perfectly fine which is a Haifu Whale-ish composition topsheet not unlike Hurricane. Of course just like the plastic ball some people just go about the business of adjusting without letting the world know of their hardship. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 5:32am
The secret is to just swing at the ball instead of living in fear of overhitting it. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 10:59am
| Like I said it is nothing like T05. It is iinstantly obvious. Is someone who tells you they are "not that different " gives you playing advice you better verify it from someone else who actually has a clue. Of course even a stopped clock is right twice a day. |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 11:25am
Umm, Samsonov uses MX-P. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 11:28am
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Yes. Samsonov once commented on the period he used Chinese rubbers and pointed out that his technique was too suited to hitting with European rubbers and that he preferred and grew up using the same rubber on both sides. He definitely hasn't used Grip-S in a while but again, with pros, you never know.
http://saletabletennis.com/sharing-all-table-tennis-information/vladimir-samsonov-equipment-question-answering/" rel="nofollow - http://saletabletennis.com/sharing-all-table-tennis-information/vladimir-samsonov-equipment-question-answering/ ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 4:02pm
Sure, just like the plastic ball is "nothing" like the celluloid. > Samsonov once commented on the period he used Chinese rubbers and pointed out that his technique was too suited to hitting with European rubbers and that he preferred and grew up using the same rubber on both sides. A quick search shows references to him using Grip-S from 2009/2010/2011, and mx-p wasn't introduced until 2012. That's a long time to be using something unsuited for him. Tenergy itself has some of the most stick for a non-chinese tack rubber, and a lot of people certainly got used to it. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 4:11pm
The point is not whether one can adapt with some compromise but whether it is easy to adapt, which was the original point made and which you used Samsonov as an example of someone who adapted without issues. From the link I posted, from the horse's mouth: Also:
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 4:16pm
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> Both forehand and backhand are the same. I am sure that is different
from China players since I noticed their forehand & backhand
difference is quite large. I had tried to do that, but that is difficult to adapt. Uh, he's talking about using different FH/BH, presumably a bigger FH swing. In any case he used it for what appears to be 3 years which no correlated drop in ranking, and if anything sunk to worst results in 2012. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 4:19pm
Isn't that relevant to the ease of use? And can't one combine that with his statement on tacky rubbers to draw reasonable inferences? And of course, can't you just acknowledge correction that he doesn't use Grip S anymore? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 4:23pm
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>
Isn't that relevant to the ease of use? Presumably he's not doing it with MX-P either. > And of course, can't you just acknowledge correction that he doesn't use Grip S anymore? I never said he uses Grip-S now. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 4:25pm
Sorry, I misunderstood this quote. I understand you better now. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 5:54pm
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apart from the 4 or so superstars of table tennis mentioned above ( that we no nothing about the sponges they are using), what are the average people doing? (Next level is trying some things out) but has anyone else trying Chinese backhand or short pips forehand etc ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 9:25pm
You are making claims that almost seem to get stranger with the passage of time but saying that Tenergy is like any version oh H3 is reallly outdoing yourself. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 9:57pm
He also doesn't want to agree with the horse (Samsonov) who said that it is not easy to adjust (the original point he argued against) and that ultimately, he wasn't comfortable doing so because he hits through the ball more than a tacky rubber user would, but let's not revisit that.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 10:34pm
| I know he will put in the last word but this particular claim, like some of what he said about plastic balls is just strange. Maybe he can put his last word to refute us in native Mandarin. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/21/2015 at 11:19pm
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Yes, after saying unambiguously in plain English that Samsonov uses Grip S, he weasel words and says that he never said that Samsonov uses Grip S now. Couldn't he have said that Samsonov used Grip S? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 1:38am
| Come on, guys. Don't point out AH's fallibilty - you shouldn't circle jerk in any kind of dog piling, whining fashion. The guy knows what he's talking about: H3 is not that different from Tenergy. Apparently Samsonov saw a sheet in 2012 and is still using it. |
Posted By: vutiendat1337
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 2:41am
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idk, pretending and seemingly intelligent does not always mean intelligent. just saying. ------------- bty petr korbel st fh: donic bluefire red bh: dawei iqul black USATT:1811 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40320&title=feedbackvutiendat1337" rel="nofollow - Feedback me |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 3:57am
There's no need when there's trouble enough here with english:
No, this would be weaseling:
But let's spread the the love:
Here's NextLevel in the Tenergy surpassed thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70493&PID=862615&title=has-tenergy-been-surpassed#862615 Perhaps NextLevel, Baal, and Tassie and whatever other luminaries can settle this matter among themselves because they certainly can't help vomiting nonsense around me. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 6:41am
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AgentHex, Sarcasm isn't weaseling. In reality, I am just pointing out the lengths you are willing to go to sound like you know about things you have hardly studied or experienced. You made one claim, and then when someone contradicted it, you pretended like you never made it. The good sign is to see you resorting to base language. I was wondering what had come over you. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 6:50am
So by stickiness, AgentHex means grippiness? Because Tenergy 05 can't pick up a ball. And I was very specific in naming Tenergy 05. I didn't generalize about Tenergy.
In response to
AgentHex somehow missed the rest. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 3:14pm
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>
Sarcasm isn't weaseling. Recall in what I replied to Baal claims euro players simply can't use anything like H3, so it's rather fitting to note that Samsonov uses such equipment just fine. Hard to grasp, I know. I also realize tempting to nitpick someone who gets most things of import right to prevent any characterization that they're just better at this, but it comes off as desperate and petty. > AgentHex somehow missed the rest. No, you added the second part as part of the edit. Weasel much more? ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 3:18pm
| Kristian Karlsson trained with H3 as a junior to improve his forehand technique. |
Posted By: Stavros
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 3:20pm
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Tenergy 64 performs very well with plastic balls, better than any other Tenergy. ------------- InfinityVPS - D80 - D05 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 4:18pm
| GripS is a bit closer to H3 than T05. Personally I disliked GripS and Dpinart. But not so important as my main claims. The VAST majority of Euro and Japanese players hate Chinese rubbers and most like Tenergy because they are not similar. This is not a CIA secret. That is however what AgentHEX is claiming but I sort of doubt he actually believes that. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 4:21pm
| I have not tried T64 with 40+ Probably worth a try. But I'm not going to buy a sheet. |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 4:21pm
T25 also works well. -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 7:44pm
You can check the timelines and see if expecting you to see it was unreasonable. I also linked to the original article so I am not sure if you decided not go read it or just are physically unable. Not a big deal either way as its typical. You quoted my response in your edit and I know I had edited my post before you completed your edit. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 7:50pm
Yes, and he is still using it today because he loves it in some alternative universe. Seriously, anyone can adapt to any rubber. The question is ease and whether they want to long term given their instincts. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 8:23pm
|
It could be that trainig with H3 might alter your stroke in a way that forces you to really contact the ball open and hard and that in turn requires perfect footwark if you are in free play. It is not like Euro rubber. If you then switch back to a Euro rubber rhe footwork would still be there. But the vast majority of European professionals use Tenergy-like ribbers because they learned with them and Chiese stuff including all H3 is quite different. Maybe things will change with new balls but thsts how it is now and for a long time. AgentHEX mentioned Keinath. Actually i do ecall reading somewhere that he used a Chinese rubber om his FH. It makes sense actually given the way he hits that shot. Very different from most European players. Of course if pros are in fact changing equipment because of the balls ,which we will know in time , it says something about how they perceive the balls. Are we sure thats why some people changed? For me afte 9 months with new balls Im finally thinking to try one or two experiments. Maybe T64 instead of 05. Maybe another try with MX P. |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 8:37pm
|
I think the crux of this discussion is thus: if the CNT can boost H3 to be as fast as Tenergy, or if they modify their strategy such that the speed of Tenergy is not needed on the backhand, then they will move to H3 for more spin. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 8:40pm
| What I remain unsure of is would it be better to have a faster rubber or a spinnier one with new balls? Probably depends on the player. I have no idea which of those might help me or maybe neithet. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 8:48pm
I went to a spinnier rubber. But it didn't happen overnight and what I use now differs from what I used before on my flat/defensive strokes. But using both side by side over a month helped me appreciate what I use now as a reasonable alternative. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 11:19pm
That's a good question. If a different rubber could make the plastic ball shot spinnier, I would say that this would be preferable. For many players (including myself) the problem with the plastic balls is making the loop-kill type shots drop on the table. I'm not convinced that 'better' rubbers can make this happen though, as I feel the problem lies with the balls...they just don't curve down as much. ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/22/2015 at 11:50pm
I do believe that by changing equipment if one so desires, one can get to a point where fewer changes have to made to one's technique. OF course, there will be a tradeoff somewhere in the spin/speed combination, but it all depends on what one is looking for. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 5:19am
Continuing to repeat that high-test H3 is nothing like Tenergy doesn't make it true. Not unlike Yinhe's Moon/Suns, the seeming initial tack quickly turns to near non-tack rather close to the gummier euro rubbers. OTOH, nobody outside the CNT & friends can get the best stuff with faster sponges anyway so it's a moot point. Grip-S comes somewhat close with its Haifu topsheet on euro sponge. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 12:08pm
| Grip S not like Tenergy either. I have hit with that also. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 12:26pm
|
Baal, he is just trying to say that Tenergy has a grippy topsheet that can be compared in some ways to Chinese rubber tackineas. That's the most charitable interpretation of his position. That he continues to push the limits of such comparisons with words such as gummy and sticky isn't helpful, but let's leave it at that. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 3:22pm
Again, to you nothing is like anything else as long as it's not convenient, which makes it a mystery why you refer to tacky as one homogenous entity when not even H3 is identical. Upon reflection, I guess it's not a mystery at all. > Baal, he is just trying to say that Tenergy has a grippy topsheet that can be compared in some ways to Chinese rubber tackineas. It's not as if grippy / tacky are somehow dichotomous properties but rather terms for end of a spectrum. Of course you already figured this out in the link to your own comment above but forget it when it's convenient. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 3:51pm
|
This is so funny, I just recall in this other thread these rubbers are apparently so close that playing plastic ball with Big Dipper is like cell with T05. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70786&PID=862845#862845" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70786&PID=862845#862845 But to be fair Baal also considers plastic is nothing like cell. It's a real mystery how euro players ever managed to play with them. These chinese players are switching between Tenergy and upend H3 like it's nothing but I guess you just have to be that good to pull it off. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:00pm
|
AgentHex, Pick up a ball with a grippy rubber like Tenergy 05. When you do it, let me know so I can send you a check for being wrong. There is a reason why many Europeans do not use Chinese type rubbers or sponges. Tacky rubbers hold the ball so much that hitting and smashing are negatively affected. Even serving feels different. That's the adjustment many people are unwilling to make and Baal is pointing that out. No one switches like it is nothing. Everyone uses it for a period, adjusts to the changes, and finds a comfort level. Only players who are playing at a low enough level that details do not matter or who are so much better than their opponents that they can beat them with cellphones or hard bat don't care about the differences. It took me a month of using Big Dipper while using T05 simultaneously to commit to it. Maybe that detail eludes you. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:08pm
|
Sure, it's so different when it's convenient and so similar when convenient. Anyone who's used these modest tack rubber knows they don't pick up a ball either after initial use so it's unclear who this weaseling is supposed to fool. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:11pm
So you are saying Big Dipper is a modest tack rubber? Or you have something else in mind? Technique defines this sport but differences in equipment matter. What you call weaseling is teasing out the nuances of the differences. It takes playing at a certain level to appreciate them. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:17pm
|
Many of the lower tack rubbers do not pick up the ball. I haven't tried specifically with Dipper, but apparently it's fairly close to T05 according to this NextLevel guy. Personally I think the Moon/Sun's in their lineup are closer but it's his words not mine. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:32pm
I have written extensively on Big D elsewhere so I will clarify one more time and ask that you please stop misrepresenting me willfully. 1. I prefer my performance with Big Dipper to my performance with Tenergy 05 with the plastic ball. 2. For the price difference and since I play close to the table, I don't have any reason to test T05 at the moment. 3. Big Dipper especially in 38 deg has a slightly springier sponge than most tacky rubbers. That makes playing off the table compared to most Chinese rubbers easier. 4. Big Dipper is significantly tacky. It might not be initially apparent but it becomes very much so if you use the rubber. 5. Big Dipper is for people who like tacky rubbers but are put off by the effort to use the hard sponged ones. It is easier to use and block with though whether it suits a particular person will depend on what they are looking for. Euro rubber lovers may still find it too slow on hits and blocks and tacky rubber lovers may find it too fast, especially on serves and touch strokes. I recommend it to T05 users not because it plays like T05 but because of the cost of admission and my experience. Some like it, some hate it. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:43pm
|
"Sure, it's so different when it's convenient and so similar when convenient." This is an esp hilarous touch: It takes playing at a certain level to appreciate them. So Samsonov and the CNT moves between these perfectly fine, but it takes Baal & NL's level to really bring out the considerable differences (for now). ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:48pm
|
I have quoted Samsonov on this already, so that last bit of trolling needs no further comment. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:51pm
|
I've already replied to that comment by noting he plays no worse and if anything perhaps better with grip-s so please stop pretending that didn't happen. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 4:57pm
The question was not whether he played worse or better, but whether a period of adjustment was required and whether there were distinct preferences based on technique, rubbers one learned with etc. We are still allowed to take his opinion on what he is more comfortable with seriously, even if you want to ignore it. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 5:11pm
|
Given there was no drop in performance going to grip-s I'll let the results speak for itself. Of course no rubbers are identical just as the new ball isn't identical to old one and there are always preferences, just instances of similar enough that people who care to adapt to marginal differences have no trouble playing to same level. Again, I'll let you speak to the specific similarity between Tenergy/tacky: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70493&PID=862615&title=has-tenergy-been-surpassed#862615" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70493&PID=862615&title=has-tenergy-been-surpassed#862615 ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 5:14pm
And you interpreted that to mean that Tenergy 05 and Hurricane play similarly? Now I know why we have a problem. I speaking to an idiot. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 5:38pm
|
I interpret that to mean you'll say anything to fit the situation. Two rubbers are similar when it suits your justification to change for new ball, and now apparently they're nothing alike. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 6:15pm
If they were alike, why would I need to change? (Jeopardy music) Oh, because I said that they performed similarly for me in terms of feel under different circumstances! But again, let's regurgitate (goes with your description of my posts as vomit):
It's fairly clear that I am making a distinction between surface friction and surface adhesion, which are related but are different. I'm saying that surface adhesion can slow down strokes to the point where people find the rubbers different. So what is being debated here is the actual properties of H3 National and whether they are really sticky or just grippy. In my experience, something that is tacky will not play like Tenergy - it will just be too slow. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 6:22pm
|
> If they were alike, why would I need to change? According to you they ostensibly differ similarly to cell vs plastic, which is relatively minor in objective metrics. > In my experience, something that is tacky will not play like Tenergy - it will just be too slow. The pertinent original claim was that the really good H3 is closer to Tenergy than folks who've only used commercial might realize. It's not too slow nor immensely tacky. Of course this became controversial with a given crowd same as if I said 2+2=4. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 6:44pm
No need to revisit this, which has been discussed elsewhere, with you on one side of a very long fence, with everyone else on the other. I have also emphasized that the feel of the stroke was important to me.
Yes, the disagreement was resolved by your producing evidence to show that they were wrong. Baal is likely going off the fact that he has tested blades of high level players who use good H3. Maybe he is wrong as to what he tested. But I would think that the discussion would begin with methodical dissection of what real H3 is like and who has used it and can speak to it, as opposed to repeating what has already being said which demonstrates or illuminates nothing.
I mean, here is one poster on this thread. It's up to you to explain why he is arguing that 2+2 is not equal to 4.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/23/2015 at 7:03pm
|
> No need to revisit this, which has been discussed elsewhere, with you on
one side of a very long fence, with everyone else on the other. It's worth revisiting to compare your own description on one side then compared to the other now. This has nothing to do with me. > It's up to you to explain why he is arguing that 2+2 is not equal to 4. Maybe he's been using the TTNPP blue sponge special. The differences are quite tangible to people who care about these sort of equipment things. popperlocker's description of physical properties is accurate, even the Provs are faster and less tacky. Just to clarify the stock h3 sponges are still slower than Tenergy sponge, if they're the same the the h3 one has been boosted/tuned. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |
Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 03/24/2015 at 4:54pm
This is a good point! Interesting question! ------------- OSP Virtuoso (Off-) MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
Posted By: Clarence247
Date Posted: 03/24/2015 at 4:57pm
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If there is a problem with spin due to the plastic ball - might this lead to more players trying to revert to SP ? I mean if inverted rubbers are shooting loop kills off the table....why not just smack that ball with SP where the throw puts the ball on the table NOT the spin? ------------- OSP Virtuoso (Off-) MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
Posted By: AgentHEX
Date Posted: 03/24/2015 at 5:16pm
|
The pro/tuned H3 is still not going to be as fast as the pro/tuned Tenergy, not that the recent XX/ML change has much to do with plastic ball anyway. A larger ball is going to have better aero as long as you can spin it hard enough. I did an analysis on this a while back and basically very physical players are going to have an advantage. Folks familiar with the 38->40 change can probably verify this. ------------- Science; upsetting the indignant since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Inquisition_and_first_judgement.2C_1616" rel="nofollow - 1616 . |