Shoulder pain when FH looping underspin
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Topic: Shoulder pain when FH looping underspin
Posted By: Danzors
Subject: Shoulder pain when FH looping underspin
Date Posted: 10/30/2015 at 11:34pm
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Hi everyone, Whenever I loop underspin on my forehand side, I loop it by contacting the ball later and following through a bit higher than my normal FH loop. This will get the ball on the table, but it really messes up my shoulder - especially my rotator cuff. To describe my stroke, I usually let the ball get more off-center to my left (I'm a lefty), and get low, stroking upwards to around the 1 o'clock position. Normally against top spin, I hit the ball in front of my body, when the ball is basically equidistant from both feet (as if forming an isosceles triangle between the ball and my feet) and striking through the ball to around the 2 o'clock position. My stance when performing the FH loop is standard for a lefty, with my left leg behind my right leg in relation to the table. I would really appreciate it if someone could help me fix my bio-mechanics so that I can develop a sustainable FH against backspin that can develop into a powerful stroke that does not harm my body unlike my current stroke. Thank you, -edit- Any stretches for recovery or exercises to address the pain would also be appreciated.
------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Replies:
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 12:25am
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You are driving your shoulder into the loop. This is a major problem and you need to break this habit. Your shoulders should move with your waist and torso. You most likely need to bend your arm more when you loop, and you turn your waist back more. When you extend your waist and arm, make sure your shoulders stay stably between them, and don't try to muscle or flex your shoulder into the ball. Shoulder movement should be minimal, your body and arm are doing the moving. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 3:38am
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I've seen a number of players who try to impart the upward motion in lifting the ball with their shoulder. That is, they rotate back and drive forward wit their hips, but the upward component of their stroke comes from rotating their arm at the shoulder. Could this be what you're doing? Most of the lift should come from your legs. You can also use a forearm snap (salute), but the main power is from pushing up with your legs. If you're tall like me, this is challenging because you have to get really low first and then push upwards.
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Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 12:13pm
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Main problem usually is not perfect position of your body when you do the loop. For that you will need to make sure your feet work fast and manage to move you where you should be. And of course, the upper body etc - what the guys have recommended above. All that means that you need to be in a really good physical shape and learn the proper footwork. Which, alas, is not always possible for us veterans. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 1:26pm
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Thank you all for your feedback - I think Argothman has a great point and the more I shadow-play, the more I realize that my shoulder plays too large a role in my FH motion. I'm not that tall and I can feel the pain even when I am repeating the motion at home at game speed, but I think that performing the upward motion mainly from the legs and being in correct position are still great points. Another thing I'll be looking at is increasing my hand speed when I noticed that my elbow-snap is not as quick as I originally thought. Looking up "tennis shoulder" as a google term showed me a good rotator cuff stretch along with some stability exercises such as the lying external rotation and bent-over rows so hopefully anyone out there experiencing the same thing can work on strengthening their external rotator cuff along with the tips shown here. I'll be playing later today and will post in the future on any progress made in fixing my problem. If anyone else has more insights to share, I would still be very open to reading it. ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 1:31pm
Well, if you are playing in a European fashion with non-tacky smooth rubber then shoulder is indeed supposed to be more involved (compared to Chinese style) in a standard top spin motion and in your style altogether. On average, of course... ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
Danzors wrote:Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 2:55pm
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I am not, but I am a university student, and I always like to systematically analyze the things I do. I'm really into table tennis, so I do a lot of thinking about it when I'm away from the table. I too am trying to figure out the optimal body mechanics for the forehand loop - in my play I've noticed there are different ways of generating power and transffering it into the racquet, I'm trying to figure out the optimal way that the pros use. |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 4:17pm
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I would suggest a sports physio therapist might be very helpful in determining what movement might be causing the issue. Here is link for match Primorac vs Wang Xi (chopper) - I like Primorac's mechanics very simple. Perhaps you can study his mechanics and see if there something that might help you. Good luck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsgoMA3CROU" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsgoMA3CROU ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 5:48pm
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Danzors, When you say that you contact the ball "later" when looping backspin, do you mean that you contact the ball heavily on the descent phase of the balls trajectory, or do you mean you contact the ball deeper in the strike zone? If you watch this video of Samsonov and Apolonia looking backspin (click topspin, vorhand, auf unterschnitt), you'll see that although they are contacting the ball on the descent, they are still hitting the ball in front of their bodies, and not so deep in the hitting zone. http://elearning.tibhar.com/" rel="nofollow - http://elearning.tibhar.com/ Edit: After rereading your post, it sounds like you might be hitting the ball too deep in the hitting zone. I used to hurt my back when I swung like this, since my loop is more hip centered than shoulder centered. Try to watch Samsonov and Apolonia and compare their contact point to yours. ------------- USATT Rating: 1785 Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 9:14pm
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Although I've been playing for a few years now, being 1200 USATT rating, I couldn't say whether I have more of a EU or CN forehand stroke. What I did notice today were a few things: 1. Not having enough hip/torso rotation, would cause my follow through to drag my shoulder across my body. 2. Reaching too far on the FH or playing stiff strokes near my body would cause my shoulder to extend or tense too much. This would be due to trying to hit the ball when out of position. These things, among others, lead to a very painful rotator cuff. As far as attacking underspin, Ringer84, like you said, I would let the ball drift more off-center (towards my hitting hand) in the strike zone. However, I don't allow the ball to be closer to my body, just more off-center from where I would normally hit it. Regardless, thank you so much for the link! I really appreciate the multiple camera angles and how smooth the videos loop into each other. If we take a look at the Primorac video linked above, we can see that Zoran strikes the ball before it would almost be above his right knee. I think this is the correct area to strike an underspin ball and what I tried to articulate in my original post, but please post if anyone disagrees with where the ball should be struck. ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 9:39pm
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Is it possible for you to post a video of your stroke? That makes it much easier to see what you are doing or trying to do and correct it. My guess is that you are looping mostly with your arm to get power. when looping backspin in general, you are supposed to end the stroke on the same side of your body as your racket hand. I have never seen any with a high level loop consistently finish a backspin looping stroke across the body. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 9:55pm
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Two things. Pay close attention if you like. 1. VERY Likely your Bio-Mechanics are not efficient. Fix that after you heal up. 2. VERY Likely you have a grade 1 tear. AND if you keep this up, you will likely get a grade two or completely tear it off to make the trifecta of a GRADE THREE tear. A grade 2 tear is pretty serious stuff and this gets some people to a surgeon. (although if you address it effectively, you can avoid surgery to fix it) Grade 3 is surgery or you be maimed for life there. Take it from BH-Man, who tore hiz rotator cuf nearly smooth off shoveling snow, getting cars un stuck from high center shoveling extended repeatedly, and pulling engine cords in -30F weather. and pushing cars out of drifts. Took me 2 months to stop re-injuring it every time I put on a shirt or put on pants. What REALLY helped me was one of those FAR INFARED HEAT devices specialized for your shoulder. They send heat deep into tissue and muscle. Tendons take forever to heal, since they do not get much blood flow at all. This increses blood flow and healing power to the injury as the body can do wonderful things to heal if we allow it. I did a bunch of dynamic stretching and strengthening exercises after it stopped killing me putting on pants first with only arm as resistance, then 1, then 2 then 5 lb weights. real important to use common sense and progression. You should get going on healing your injury while it is much easier to so so NOW. A grade 1 tear can be fixed anywhere from a week or two to a month or two. Fix it now while it is much easier. It takes over a year to fully get it back after a grade 2 and sometimes you never get 100 percent from a grade two. Mine had only a few threads holding it together, I injured it late Jan and it got good enough in May to CAREFULLY start BH loop strokes without too much explosion. At the 6 month time frame, it was 60-70% healed and felt pretty good... enough to do matches without worrying too much, just was careful not to extend with power. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 10:18pm
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BH-Man - do you do any specific warm up and cool down routines for your shoulder? I second your suggestion to let the injury heal before trying to fix the stroke. ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 10:39pm
BH-Man, I completely agree that my bio-mechanics are off. If you could mention certain exercises that can be done aside from the ones I mentioned above, I'd appreciate it as it looks like you've gone through this yourself. Unfortunately, I can't justify spending money on a far infrared heating pad for myself, but I'll put it on the wish-list for the holiday season  . In the interim, I did take this week off after aggravating my shoulder (like you alluded to, this has been a nagging injury for years) and utilize Penetrex to aid in recovery.Nextlevel, sure! I can post a clip hopefully some time next week to examine today's gameplay against backspin once I get my USB back from my friend who records using his GoPro. I agree that visualizing it would be the most useful tool in examining what exactly is happening. ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: alphapong
Date Posted: 10/31/2015 at 10:57pm
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If you stabilize your elbow as described in this Brett Clark video you should put very little strain on your shoulder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tDSi5YqxhM" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tDSi5YqxhM
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Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/02/2015 at 12:27am
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Hi Alpha, actually, it seems that the problem comes specifically on the FH, where even in Brett's video, we are utilizing more "upper arm" (as he calls it) to generate more power. On all my strokes, I can, and have played while cradling a tennis ball between my upper arm and body (the area underneath my armpit), which I've found as a great demonstration in keeping the elbow stable. I don't believe you can successfully generate the pace I'm looking for in my FH without using the upper arm in this case. I'll try to post a video as soon as possible which should shed the most direct light to the flaws in my stroke. Perhaps your point will be more valid than I'm thinking on once we view the tape! ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/02/2015 at 1:17am
I think I know what stroke you're using, it's more of a Ma Lin/Zhang Jike stroke where one can get huge amounts of power from the shoulder moving forwards during the stroke without much backswing. The elbow actually moves forwards during the stroke. However, bear in mind that even as you gain power, by using this stroke regularly you become much more prone to injury. In fact, Zhang Jike is now having serious shoulder issues too from overusing his shoulder during his FH loops too. I think you should look into changing your stroke a bit to the WLQ/Fang Bo model, with an emphasis on the legs and more waist rotation on the FH stroke, although you lose a bit with the increased recovery time. In the meanwhile you can try the rehab motions that I saw in a ZJK video. He's now doing X motion moves for strength training. Either that or start building some serious muscle in your shoulder blades by doing lots of shoulder pressing, pull ups and rows. Good luck to your efforts! ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 6:52pm
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Hi guys, so as promised, here is a video from last week's practice. I don't know how to embed youtube unfortunately, so here is the link! http://youtu.be/RpQVN_JjOrw" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/RpQVN_JjOrw -edit- sorry, grey shirt is me.
------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 7:29pm
| Which player is you? |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 7:45pm
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you lack the proper torso/body rotation when looping. when you loop the ball, you seem to use more of your arms that is why you are having pain in your shoulders. ------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:02pm
| To second what Yogi said, you're not using a proper body rotation. The entire body needs to rotate into the motion, so that the shoulder only has a small role to play. When you just use an arm-only swing, like in this video, then your consistency goes way down and you develop shoulder pain. The consistency goes down both because you can't generate the snap (acceleration) needed and because it becomes really hard to time your stroke. |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:15pm
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WHat's interesting to me is that he has a really nice backswing on many of his loops. He turns his shoulders properly, loads his left foot, gets nice and side on to the table, etc. It's on the forward part of the swing where everything goes haywire.
------------- USATT Rating: 1785 Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:24pm
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While I haven't seen the video, please propose a solution people. Diagnosis just repeats the problem to a patient. What's the treatment process? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:43pm
Fair comment. I'm just not confident enough in my coaching abilities to guide him through this through words over the Internet. My opinion is that he needs some work in a swivel chair, in order to properly learn how to transfer his lower body into the ball and relax his shoulder and upper arm. And also to read http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39076&title=waist-rotation-trick" rel="nofollow - this thread started by blahness. ------------- USATT Rating: 1785 Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
Posted By: CroNone
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:57pm
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What I can see here is that the stroke is not starting lower and ending higher. Have a go at starting your stroke low, bending your knees down, lowering the bat as low as you can and finishing the stroke with the bat above your left eyebrow. Imagine that your are trying to brush the ball up to the ceiling above you, not forward to the other side of the table. Don't worry about how high your shot goes, just try to sweep it upwards and brush it with a fine contact. Once you can get it over the net, then you can start adjusting how upwards your stroke is. |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 9:03pm
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.
------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 9:03pm
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Misunderstood a post :) ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 10:26pm
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I take back what I just said, you need to work on your FH stroke seriously if you want to progress. Your feet seem too planted and you're not really transferring the power from your torso/lower body into the shot. Actually you seem to be very hesitant on applying power. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:10pm
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Looking at that video, I agree with blahness and would need to see his basic loop first. I honestly didn't think he had a loop at first. Then I watched the whole video and I see that he has a lot of misconceptions about looping. At around 2:50 and on the last stroke in the video around 3:20, he shows that even when he uses his body somewhat correctly, he does not know how to use his arm. When looping backspin, you do not finish across your body. In general, this is true for looping, but especially critical for backspin. That said, danzor, I praise you for exposing your stroke to scrutiny. It's not easy, but if you want to get better, it can be rewarding.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:53pm
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Hey guys, thank you all for taking the time to watch the video! I'd say the biggest takeaway from this so far is that my FH still has a ways to go and can especially agree that I'm very hesitant to apply power. Partly because I don't want to be a bad training partner and just blast balls off the table, but I suppose I've fallen into a bad habit. I think I can actually put together footage from my other practices for the back view on FH loops and FH countering. Will try to get some side view by next week. Thanks again! ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 12:07am
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While you need proper technique to get sustainable power, you don't need to loop hard when you use proper technique. It's more of a form and timing thing. You need all the right things working together and if they work the right way, you don't need to use them all at full capacity. That said, the test of a good loop is how much easy power you can get. You should be able to loop and hold a conversation. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 12:18am
 Kudos to Danzor for posting his videos, it takes a lot of guts to do that, to expose yourself to criticism. If you can tolerate some constructive criticism, at least you will get free coaching that normally costs lots of $$$  ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: CroNone
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 3:52pm
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I've read in an article that looping against backspin is one of the first things that coaches train and want to get the students to do correctly. If you do it correctly and loosely, you shouldn't experience shoulder pain. Ping Skills just posted this one on their FB site today. It has some really good points about looping backspin correctly. Cheers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bi3vOTH_do" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bi3vOTH_do
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Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 10:39pm
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Hey everyone, so I looked through the footage and was able to get a clip of my practice partner and me doing FH counters cross court. Here it is! - http://youtu.be/2z_O9J7n6_0" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/2z_O9J7n6_0 Thank you again to all the people that took the time to watch the video and help me out. Really appreciate all the advice. ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 10:41pm
Hey, thank you CroNone for the great video as well as your earlier post about starting lower, ending higher. Being able to loop against backspin definitely feels like a fundamental skill to continue improving as a player (hence my desire to improve this skill). In my head, I felt that I was doing these things, but the video sheds a very sombering (but illuminating) perspective on things. Appreciate it! Ringer84, I'm doing the swivel chair exercise and this, along with blahness' advice about my feet being too planted, I think I'm getting a better understanding of the weight transfer. Thanks
------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 2:02am
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First thing that jumps out from the first video: Shoulder internal rotation at the end of the swing. That motion is redundant. The role of the shoulder should be mainly extension and flexion with some abduction and adduction. From the second video: Left foot too far behind, with both feet pointing toward and chest facing the other table. This looks to be the source of the shoulder internal rotation to compensate for the lack of forward motion and why you get nearly none if any trunk rotation. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 3:11am
OK. Here's my feedback 1) You can't practice with a partner like that, who suddenly increases the speed and varies the placement all the time with unorthodox technique. It will throw you off so much that you have absolutely no time to develop good habits. You're simply reacting to every single ball. If both of you can't keep the ball in the same spot with similar speed all the time, then perhaps you should just feed each other medium speed balls to hit with. 2) The first thing is with your backswing. Undoubtedly you must have watched many CNT players because your arm is straight. But unfortunately, if you look at their backswing their elbow is very close to their body. The only reason behind the straight arm is that their body is leading the swing, making the arm straight. Keep your elbow nice and tight together with your body and don't move it during the backswing! 3) Your mindset during the backswing is wrong. During your backswing you're thinking "moving my arm back". Actually you should be thinking "Move and plant my left leg to the optimal position while turning your waist backwards". Also you have almost no weight transfer between your left foot to your right foot. This is why your feet is mostly planted. To correct that, you must do lots of shadow practice and start with multi ball feeding easy medium high balls. Don't proceed with anything else until you have fixed those problems. 4) Drop your wrist until the bat is in a straight line with your arm. This will help you to relax a lot more and generate a lot more spin. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 3:16am
If you want to emulate CNT FH, you need to practice like them! Watch less matches and study more practice videos. For eg. these are ZJK's practice videos. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45195&title=zhang-jike-technique-compilation-from-a-zjk-fan" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45195&title=zhang-jike-technique-compilation-from-a-zjk-fan You can find Ma Long's one which is also very good. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 3:18am
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Zeio, not sure what you mean there about abduction vs adduction // extension vs flexion. They are both mutually exclusive motions as I will link here: http://machinedesign.com/site-files/machinedesign.com/files/uploads/2014/07/What%E2%80%99s-the-diff-Abd-AddWEB.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://machinedesign.com/site-files/machinedesign.com/files/uploads/2014/07/What%E2%80%99s-the-diff-Abd-AddWEB.jpg https://breddydotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/shoulder-flexion-and-extension.png" rel="nofollow - https://breddydotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/shoulder-flexion-and-extension.png Abduction is the motion away from the torso, while adduction is the motion towards the torso when the person is facing forward, while flexion/extension is the same motion away/towards the torso when the person is facing sidways. If you could clarify what you mean, I think I'll be able to understand your point better. ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 3:24am
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Here's an image of the perfect backswing against underspin. Study this carefully and you'll understand a lot of things.  ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 10:08am
IF that was your counterhit, it is okay. But a as a loop, no. Your basic loop needs to improved. You are swinging shallow. Your loop should finish on the same side of your body and if finishing across the body, must go above the eyebrows. Lock your elbow and upper arm to your body turn. Whether or not and how much you straighten the arm is up to you. Though straightening the arm gives you more leverage and makes your elbow snap more powerful, it also can make it harder to time faster balls, so people tend to straighten their arm more on the backswing when the ball is slower. Looping is like throwing a discuss or a frisbee or swinging a golf club. There are many natural motions that get the idea and I prefer you use those rather than pick on small details here and there - those (if you need them and I suspect most people don't) can be worked on after the basic motion is correct. The swivel chair exercise is good, and you can do the following drill with a stick - you don't need a golf club. Looping backspin and looping topspin are similar motions. It's all about the path for swinging at the ball and where on the ball you contact. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 10:09am
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I'm only commenting on your fh counter video. I think you need to get this refined before worrying too much about looping underspin. Several great points that have been made.
First some good things.
Some thinks that need work.
Things to try.
Good luck - and let us know how your are doing. Videos appreciated! bes
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 11:29am
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Posting this for the benefit of everyone. The following is Ma Long's translated tutorials showcasing most of his classic strokes from each angle.  To skip to Ma Long's FH counter mechanics, you can go to 11:10. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 4:01pm
What I described above is the prominent motions of the shoulder during a swing, from the backswing(extenion and abduction) to the forward swing and recovery(flexion and adduction). In practice, the upper arm should act like a conical pendulum. Below is an animated gif of a sequence extracted from the first video showcasing the two problems.  The foot problem starts at frame 11, where you turn to the left at the groin making your right foot follow when the rotation should be at the trunk. That robs you of any power as your trunk fails to build up tension. This is a very common problem. That leads to the the shoulder problem, starting at frame 20, where you force an internal rotation to make up for the lack of trunk rotation and to propel the ball forward. I think that is where you cause the pain. The gist: you need a coach. There is not much people can do to help fix that stroke through words when it is something that you have to feel for yourself. You need someone standing right next to you guiding your movement in a step-by-step fashion. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 6:55pm
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To be honest, I think you are trying run before you can walk... Work on consecutive FH to FH drives with your buddy, then one block while the other loops... Then 1 loop, 1 block alternating... You should aim to build solid consistent mechanics... Progress to looping backspin, with push rallies where only one can open up, then open table.. Ma Long has awesome mechanics. "Pawing" the ball is what's creating the shoulder pain... Have you checked your grip... A solid foundation goes a long way. Enjoy the ride,..  ------------- 1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05 |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 11:31pm
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Hi everyone, I've got a lot here that I'll be contemplating on and trying to commit into my play. Likely will take some time, but I'm optimistic that focusing on the things said here will lead to a better FH overall. Thankfully we do have a robot in the club so I'll be trying to utilize that to establish good torso rotation (with weight transfer) and keeping my elbow stable in an effort to establish better habits. Thank you everyone for all the insights and I'll definitely post my progess as I go! ------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 1:43am
Sorry to look at vid so late. Hehe, Chicago Korean TT Assn venue hehe, fun to try to read that sign backwards through the banner. A lot of members have pretty much said it all. The biggest thing you are doing wrong vs looping underspin is you are not transferring weight efficiently. You seem to NOT use any of your lower body to start the power. Your waist and torso seem to be in 4x4 lock mode moving together and you try to generate the final overpower with your arm. I can see why you are getting hurt little by little and a wonder you haven't been hurt more. When you try to go for that kind of power and timing/mechanics are off, it is real easy to get hurt. There is no ONE right answer for every shot, but there are principles to follow to make things efficient and when you have good timing and mechanics, then it will click. You need to get your tail down, knees bent down some moar, twist a bit dowing down. Start exploding upwards with hitting leg, uncoil hip explosively, bring around the shoulders and when you are in strike zone, go for the arm snap (lower arm) and wrist snap at finish. How much upwards you swing depends on a lot of things. (so does how much you open your blade) Also depends on the shot you are trying to produce. Wanna spin it more and slower, swing up and graze it. Go for 50/50 balance speed and spin, a little less up and a little more forward solid contact. Power loop, open blade more and explode up and forward channeling it all into ball explosively accelerating through the point of attack. This takes practice. Many Korean coaches will not teach you this shot until you are 1700+ USATT playing a FH drive only game, they got their own progression for their players. I was an exception, because I couldn't hit 1000 consecutive FH drives high speed to save my life, but I could spin really well, so I got a pass. You are grabbing the ball and accelerating it, using efficient power transfer, not trying to make hte ball explode upon impact (unless you are loopdriving). Important to hit in the zone, allow ball to come to you, it is OK if it falls a little low. With the right stroke, you can spin the logo paint off the ball and still land it with room to spare, just dont try powerloop from 2 foot below table level. It is more important to land the shot than to be hit the ball when it is at such and such height. Later, you realize you really want to hit it at such and such height, so you move forward and be down and ready so you can take advantage, this comes later with more awareness and practice. I can say like everyone else you are finishing shot with arm follow through too low, blah blah blah, but if you are using efficient energy transfer, are in position down ready, impact it with good timing inside strike zone, use the right swing plane and bat angle for desired shot, all these things like finishing position will take care of themselves. These are just symptoms of your major problem(s). Pay attention and practice these fundamentals and your shot will improve, and you will not be injurring yourself on this shot unless you go for too much the wrong way. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 1:52am
Once my injury healed to 2/3 healed point, I could start doing BH shots again. Ditto on FH. At that point, all I did was DYNAMIC warmup 5 minutes or so, then if I did match, I wouldn't play all out right away. I would do the same strokes I used in matches, but I would use way less power and focus impacting in zone and using efficient power transfer, then use some progression. I am not much a believer in static stretches before exercise. I have 30 years of firsthand military experience with idiots who go overboard leading the entire 100+ strong company during morning exercise sessions with a pile of static stretches then move right into heavy stuff and it is no-shyt Sherlock stuff. Static stretching before a load can help you get hurt more and moar faster. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: Spin83
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 1:53am
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I just love when people give links of ma long and zjk to beginners. Your stroke is very bad and the best thing for you is to hire a coach, not just to learn something, but to prevent injuries. p.s. people need to get into their heads that tt mechanics are complex and hard to learn..it takes time! oh yeah and other thing a lot of people don't realize is that if you want to play good you have to invest money! I've been through 4 different sports (football, basketball, tennis, badminton) and it makes ronaldinho dribble or dunk easy compared to quality fh loop. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 2:05am
I agree that a lot of stuff is blah blah, but finishing position is never blah blah and never takes care of itself - it is part of the stroke. You can't fully describe a stroke without the starting point and finishing position. Try it sometime. Then say its blah blah. After all, the only fix a coach who helped me with my forehand loop made was just to change the finishing position. I'm trying to convince a guy who loops across his body that he will never loop backspin consistently that way. If he read your post and felt I was saying bla blah, I would be scared. And if he didn't loop across his body, he would not have shoulder problems, by the way. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 2:08am
This is one of the better strengthening guides I have seen. Worked like a champ for me. A few weeks of that and the Infared heat thing did me well... once I stopped tearing it every day getting dressed. Use common sense and don't go for too much too soon, but certainly dynamic stretch and strengthen it to reasonable limit only you know. http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/PDFs/Rehab_Shoulder_5.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/PDFs/Rehab_Shoulder_5.pdf ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 2:26am
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Blah blah blah is about the other stuff, NL. Looking at someone's finishing position given a certain shot is a good indicator of a problem, but not the problem itself. Some shots you will finish differently depending on what you are trying to do. Obviously finishing a loop vs underspin totally horizontal position is an indicator that the player is swinging way too forward. Telling a player to simply finish upwards after the stroke may or may not get the player to correct the stroke. I agree and we both feel the same way that the base stroke going forward has lower arm finishing upwards. Depending on how much spin is on ball and what kind of loop a player is trying, he might finish very high to the right of his eye or to the left of his eye (RH player). What I mean by some stuff taking care of itself is many problems a player has with basic strokes are from poor balance, poor timing, failing to impact the ball in the zone, failing to use the whole body, failing to use effective timing of the moving parts in order... these are main problems causing a lot of stuff wrong with shots with players at his (and also my) level. Fixing the fundamental problem of say hitting the ball too far in front of zone (reaching) often correct problem of hitting to far out and recovery for one example. Of all the forum members here, I think Next Level has considered and reconsidered and laid bare his whole process prolly dozens of times more than any of us in an honest way to get rid of ineffective stuff and re-tool his whole game. NL carries a lot of credibility and won't take crap from anyone. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 5:32am
There are some things that you need to be careful when using robots, especially single wheel robots. Normally, the robots give you heavy topspin balls to practise against, which may not be very representative of reality when you encounter balls of all kinds. You need a stroke that is very scalable, i.e. it works for underspin/topspin/sidespin, fast/slow, low/high, shallow/deep. Besides that, robots will give you bad habits of not looking at the opponent's body language and bat. This will severely hinder your development in reaction speed. I can speak from experience here because I also used robots extensively before, it is good if you don't have a basic stroke yet, but you need to move on from it fast if you want to learn how to adjust to different balls. If possible you and your partner should learn multiball feeding, it is way superior to robot feeding. Being the feeder will make you really good at flicks and short counters too because it trains up your feeling on those strokes.
------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 6:28am
------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 8:40am
In my experience, it is the simplest indicator of the problem and one indicator that can be used to fix the problem. As some who played for a long time with incorrect mechanics, there is a lot of stuff you can get away with and which falls into place once you learn to use your arm correctly. I know many people learn (or say they learned) to use the body first, so it's just my bias.
Yes, but you don't finish differently on your base stroke. Watch any good player warming up his loop against any shot and tell me how many different things he is trying to do. Let's keep the context here - he needs to fix his base stroke, not his power loop or his high ball kill. His base stroke should not go across the body. IT should be a 90 degree forearm snap of some sort on the same side of the body. If you can get extremely low and have the wrist speed of Timo Boll
Yes, but again, in my experience, it is easier to communicate all this stuff by simply focusing on the start and finish position and to give him a natural throwing and core exertion motion than to describe in every detail where the power should come from.
Yes. And In fact, I am not saying you are wrong in as much as I am saying that my experience biases me towards never underestimating the information in the finishing position. I personally find his stroke within limits to be largely okay if he fixed his arm mechanics. He would have to improve his timing and co-ordination, but those things tend to fall into place in my experience if you can get the person to fix the finishing position and to use a natural model for turning the body. He sometimes shows he has a natural motion, but if you asked him to punch someone with his natural motion, you would find that he would turn his body far more than he is currently doing to support his punch. His current turn is strong enough to support a finishing position on the same side of his body. As bad as he looks on tape, fixing this in person could be less than 30 mins of work to get a serviceable loop he can grow with over time. Of course, me with damaged knees and all, I am just trying to get him to topspin - I am not trying to give him a super loop - that he can figure out over time depending on how much work he wants to put into the physical part of the sport. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Spin83
Date Posted: 11/11/2015 at 5:32pm
| double post |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/12/2015 at 12:57am
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Don't ignore the pain. If you are doing something that causes shoulder pain, you need to stop it. Stretches and exercises are not really going to keep this from happening because the pain is in the tendons, not the muscle (probably). Repetitive use injuries in that joint can get worse, become chronic, and really stop you from enjoying the sport (and can get in the way of daily life). At the point, the only way to get better is quite prolonged rest of the joint. So you really are going to need to change your stroke in one way or the other. I think there are a lot of things going on with your stroke and you might want to get a local coach to help you. But as a start, try to relax your arm, take the ball slightly farther away from your body. That will help you get some body rotation. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/12/2015 at 1:23am
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The worst I've seen in real life is a friend dislocating his shoulder with poor mechanics. It was brutal. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 11/12/2015 at 4:53am
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Saw the animated gif again. You shouldn't be dropping your bat that much against medium high topspin balls. You're afraid of sending the ball out which is why your stroke ends up so much to the side. For these kind of balls, you need to start your swing higher and close your bat angle more. In general you shouldn't be finishing across your body that much. The finish across the body should be due to your trunk rotating, not your arm going to the side. ------------- ------- Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
Posted By: Danzors
Date Posted: 11/12/2015 at 2:05pm
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Hi guys, to everyone saying I should rest and wondering how I haven't injured myself even worse, to give you some history, I played all throughout college but actually took a break of 6 years after graduating before I started up again this past August. I've been taking it very slow and don't want to aggravate old injuries or fall into old habits, so when I started noticing shoulder pain, I decided to post here. The 3 things that I focused on in yesterday's practice was the placement of my left foot to get in good position for the ball, rotation of my torso as a unit including elbow + upper arm, and ending my follow through up above my left eyebrow. Of all these things, I'm finding the most difficulty with my end position still going across my body mostly due to habit. The one thing I did notice though, is it seems to strain my scapula more than my previous stroke so I probably just have overall scapular weakness and may need to get some light weights and restart my rehab back from all those years ago. Perhaps right now my should will not sustain my motion but not to worry, I rarely go for loop kills and take care to miss the ball rather than reach or hurt myself. I'm too TT-crazy to step away from the table and rest, sorry guys! Also, as much as I would like, I can't afford the only decent coach in the area because he's $50/hr. The rest of the coaches offering lessons don't have the oratory skills or even temperament to properly put into words what they are doing even though they are solid players in their own right. I'm sure we're all familiar with the adage of great players not necessarily being great coaches. Thanks guys!
------------- Tibhar KJH Xiom Vega Pro |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/12/2015 at 2:20pm
You are going too fast. Changes like this are supposed to be done very slowly and in a controlled practice environment with you filming yourself and reviewing footage and giving yourself time to adjust to the change.
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 11/12/2015 at 2:33pm
Below is an article from the Japanese magazine Table Tennis Kingdom going in depth of the common foot problem. Left is good, right is bad. You're on the right track as the good one makes use of the scapula.
 ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |