For several months I have been trying to develop a real finishing shot (a loop-kill against block).  I have a pretty good opening loop with medium speed and a steady loop against block with good spin and medium speed.  Neither one of these shots is fast enough to be a real finishing shot.  I can win a point when opponent does not account for the amount of spin or if I give a really good fake of which direction I am hitting.   I just don't seem to be able to hit that fast loop-kill that gets past the opponent before he is really able to put a racket on the ball (or at least only reacts enough for a weak late block). 

Right now when I try to switch from a loop of block to a loop-kill of block, I try to set the blade at a more neutral angle (just barely closed instead of the 40deg for regular loop) and not take the racket back quite as low as the regular loop so that I have a slightly flatter swing plane (but still an upward one).  What I always seem to get is a very light (almost flat) drive that goes off the end of the table go straight or even slightly upward.   When I try closing the blade and keeping the flatter swing plane the ball goes into the net.  If I try to keep the neutral blade angle and swing more upward I get spin, but lose the speed on the ball.

In a couple of lessons I took the coach kept telling me to spin the ball more, but every time I got spin on the ball it was slow and when it was fast it had no topspin and went long.  He would demonstrate and his shots would be faster and seemingly as spinny as his regular loop.  We just never could figure out how to get me to do what he was doing.  I have worked more on my own and it just seems I hit either medium speed and spinny or fast and almost flat.  Even when I land the loop-kill I can tell it is a lot closer to a flat-kill than it is to a real loop-kill.

I like my steady loop and even a couple of coaches have complimented the stroke so I do not think I need to make changes in that stroke.  

What changes do any of you make when going from hitting a loop of block to hitting a fast finishing type loop-kill of a weak block? 

Mark

PS - I will try to get some video on Tue or Wed.

Imagine someone throwing a discus. They are using body rotation and body weight forward to get maximum speed on the throw.

This example is a bit extreme but you can see Ma Long's weight coming forward

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvvkPmxM0mU" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvvkPmxM0mU

GM,

Placement is actually one of the stronger parts of my game.  It just seems that often I use 2 or 3 shots to get a weaker ball and then one of two things happens.  I go for a fast finishing shot and miss or I land a slower, spinny shot with good placement but it is run down by my opponent and returned.  I might have them on the ropes for a couple of shots, but I don't put it away and eventually they counter-attack with a ball that goes right by me before I even have time to react.

Opponent's often just decide to guess where I am going to hit the finishing shot.  If they guess right my shot is so weak that it is not a matter of them just getting the ball back, they usually kill the ball past me.  I would at least like to have a strong enough finishing shot that even if they guess right they do not have so much success swinging away and hitting winners back at me. 

Seems like most of the time that I make a weak return, balls are just hit past me.  I want to do that to others.  Maybe it is just that my reaction to their finishing shots is much slower than theirs to mine (anticipation, distance from table, footwork, etc) so I am fooled into thinking their shots are a lot faster.  I just do not know.

Mark - A turtle who wants to be a hare

I do the same thing as you often, where my natural reaction is to hit the loop in a more controlled fashion, i.e. with a higher arc and landing the ball more in the center of the opponent's side of the table.  Instead, think about "loop hard, keep it low, and go deep".

Next Level,

I have progressed past aiming for the white lines.  I now aim for the places where a little of the white paint has chipped off the edge of the table. 

Maybe that is why I have so much trouble at Nationals and the Open.  No chipped paint on those new tables to line up for my deadly placement.

Mark - Who knows there are 3 important things in TT: placement, placement, and placement.

LOL, i burst in my cube here... : )  . That was my sentiment when i read his advice but I could never put it like that : )

NextLevel wrote: People return those shots?

Almost never returned because:

1. Almost never land

2. Any player over 1400 knows that it is ridiculous to go for most of the wide placements I try so when one does land they are caught completely flat-footed.

The running inside out Fh from just outside the Bh corner to about 1/3 way up the Bh side-line from the net is my most spectacular shot.  I am sad to admit that the above is no joke and I do try that shot way more often than I have any business doing.

Mark - A true legend in his own mind

Victor,

Mark is my real name.  I often close a post with my name and a brief description of myself that is appropriate (and hopefully humorous) to the content of the post.

Mark - Bringer of knowledge and understanding

Victor,

I have not talked with my twin brother for many years.  Family squabbles can escalate quickly and last for ages.   I had no idea what he was up to.  Thank you for providing the link.  It is good to see that he has turned his life around and become a productive, contributing member of society.

Mark - Who's BS gauge is showing that he is full of it.

PS - Seriously never heard of him or his reviews before.  I guess we should get back to real TT talk.

Try this, the paddle is open, like for a flat smack, but when you drive through the ball you don't go through like for a smack, but just slightly upward. This shot can only be executed with full commitment and serious power. Perfect paddle angle and perfect arm motion angle will not work with less power. Same shot that appears to be mostly speed and no spin and too flat to bend around the net becomes spiny enough to bend. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyxCcKnUX_E 

you can see for yourself..watch his bh stroke

also kind advice to people who know little about table table..please don't teach others things you don't know nor understand.

Stealing my line - it's okay.  In fact, anyone can watch the match and other matches and see that William does make those kinds of strokes.  At pro level, there is a premium on speed and time so you don't always get to see the ball curl, but it is there.  The quality of opponent and the incoming ball also makes a huge difference.  This is probably a better match to make the analysis.  Anyone can check William's ball placement and the kinds of strokes he uses.  

It doesn't look like there is any wrist movement at all, not the direction the paddle is facing at contact.  Are there tutorial videos on that serve?  It makes reverse sidespin, which would be cool, and doesn't appear to require full range of motion in the shoulder and wrist.   

It's partly the body rotation.  That's the part that is key that you do don't see given what you are focused on.  Also, you don't need a full range of motion in the wrist.

and they loop the first one 

then I block, 

they will often  loop long the next 

so I make them do a hit 

and that is very successful 

 Honestly, I don't like to get too confrontational these days, but WOW how wrong can you be?

APW46,

Thanks for the reply.  I was beginning to wonder if I was taking the entirely wrong approach to looping in general.

If you could, I would appreciate your thoughts on my "Loop-kill v block (followup)" thread where I discuss testing out some of the ideas that I got in this thread.

Mark

If people try out what I've written and think it's good, then good for them. If people try out what I've written and think it's bad, then there's plenty of other advice in the forums. 

NextLevel,

For your information MLfan made a clarification of what he was suggesting in the "Loop-kill v block (followup) " thread.  He said that he was talking about using a "more open" racket for the loop-kill than for the brush loop.  He suggested slightly closed at 70-80 deg.

He also had some additional comments if you are interested.

Mark

You can see Mizutani doing it here:

http://butterflyonline.com/modern-topspin-strokes/" rel="nofollow - http://butterflyonline.com/modern-topspin-strokes/

@mjamja: I'm not sure if you noticed, but I use Neo H3 for my forehand, so everything I tell you is specifically for Neo H3. The whole point of having a relatively open racket angle at contact, ie. 70-80 degrees, is to maximize the surface area of contact between the rubber and the ball when you contact the ball. And the purpose of maximizing surface area is so that you can "eat" or grip the ball more easily. 

Maybe using all your power with closed paddle is the right thing to do, because you reduce your probability for error and if you are strong enough  you can have enough speed even if you wasted a lot of energy on spin.

None of those videos were of loopkill. The perfect example in my mind is Yan An. He loopkills almost every lose ball.

If we are talking about loopkill and not loop as APW appears to mean, i tend to agree with MLfan: it doesn't matter that much if you loopkill underspin or overspin. The same when when you smack kill the high balls it doesn't matter what spin they have if you can smack them good. 

My personal problem is that this loopkill is a risky affair. When it goes in it is spectacular looking shot and i feel dominating, but I also lose too many points in position where my opponent is in a weak position and i should have a 95% chance of winning the point.

So what if the ball is pushed deep? Move your legs and take a step back lol.

And what would you choose to do at match point lol, when taking into account that one is more risky than the other. In my game there are plenty of variations between your 'only two'

Oh, so I think I'm starting to understand what you mean a little better. So with the fast spinny topspin, you'd have more forwards movement with an open racket angle, hitting the ball further in front of your body (probably before or at the peak of its height) compared to the slow spinny topspin, where you'd brush up the ball more from closer to your body (probably after the ball passes its peak height)?

NextLevel,

Thanks to the link to those videos.  Those are great viewing angles and the slow motion is really good.  I am going to study them thoroughly and try to get some video of myself from the same angle for comparison. 

One great thing is that racket lacks edge tape.  That creates a white blur line showing the blade angle when you look at a single frame.  I think I am noticing some interesting things when I look at stopped frame just before contact.  I will spend more time with them and write some more.

Mark

Just youtube Li Xiaodong's lectures...if you're in position, do the fast loop; if you're not in position, do the slow loop. End of discussion lol why would you do, for instance a slow loop, when you can do a fast loop? What are these "variations" ?

I would obviously still do the fast loop at match point if I were in position. It makes no sense to get in position, then do a slow loop, because the opponent can block it back more easily...

Um, if you block a ball into the net, it can be either your mistake or your opponent's deception. I'm asking you what your variations are. I train with Jia A and Jia B players in china so don't say i don't play with quality players. 

 No need, he gives himself away.

 My variations are that I constantly vary the spin when looping, if the spin is always the same its easy to block for your opponent once he has found the common angle. Of course, I don't play world class players in every match I play ( although I've played a few in competition) But at my level, which is good enough for most who read this forum, I can tell you that there is great reward to be had if you can learn to vary the spin on your topspin between very heavy and very little. That is why I took issue with your statement that 'there are only two kind of loops'

Maybe you should check this with the high level players you train with.

 Great, but IMO, the only person who can do ZJK's loop is ZJK, there must be a fantastic range of players who can do it to a wide range of competence by copying the action, but on anything less than 20 hours a week training with very good players, its never going to be consistent enough to make a difference other than looking good (debatable)

70 degrees, anyone?

Yes, agreed.  And I find it strange whenever people recommend a specific racket angle for any particular shot.  Would not the racket angle vary depending on:

the amount of spin on the incoming ball?

the trajectory of the stroke?

where the ball is in it's arc (top of the bounce, descent, or on the rise)?

the amount of racket speed the player can produce?

the type of equipment being used?

etc?

I try not to think about the racket angle at all when I play, but rather I just try to subconsciously adjust my racket angle in order to produce the feeling of spin/dwell time that I am trying to create.

ZJK has a pretty good crush, but his normal attack is very spiny and not a good example of loop kill.

If you want a good example of loop kill, wantch videos of Yan An. He doesn't even use a loop, he loopkills everything : ). 2011 is a good year for his videos...

 yes exactly

Try again.  Such common sense should not be posted on mytt.  To be honest, I struggle to make more than five loops in a row.  I am considering going into close to the table inverted chop-blocking.  So that people can put my level and my statements in context, here is my looping video with a hard sponge rubber (MX-S).  My practice partner in this video by the way was sent to me by God - I don't know anyone else who would have blocked so many of my loops so expertly over the last 9 months without me paying them a significant amount of money.

rofl 

Since you asked ( and continue to be a wise guy despite not having posted any videos here on the topic or knowing anything about the topic), here are a few examples of loop kills against easy balls which I described earlier in the thread.  Against block, the motion doesn't change much.  You just finish with a larger stroke and overpower the ball with spin.  IF you go too hard into the back of the ball, you are going to hit the ball off the table so you have come round the side with the right contact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsujsROPXE4&feature=youtu.be&t=31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsujsROPXE4&feature=youtu.be&t=158