Estimate the Rating of Small Korean Boy
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Topic: Estimate the Rating of Small Korean Boy
Posted By: heavyspin
Subject: Estimate the Rating of Small Korean Boy
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 11:22am
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One of my matches at the Butterfly teams vs unrated Korean boy. I thought the estimated rating given to him (I won't say) was fair but on the low side. |
Replies:
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 11:36am
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At first I thought 2000 to 2100, but as the match progressed I'm thinking more like 2200. He rallies 2200 if you let him, but his short game is 2000. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 1:05pm
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The kids definitely done some training, looking at his legs. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 1:07pm
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Counter attacking 2300. Server return 1800. (2300+1800)/2= USATT Rating 2050.   ------------- 
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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 1:14pm
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I hesitated to dock him that much for serve return because I know Heavy is probably a pretty tricky server. I noticed after the first game (maybe his coach advised) he started pushing for the extreme forehand side in an attempt to make heavy move. He missed a lot, but when he got them on (even weakly) it was pretty sound strategy and allowed him to get into the return game a little. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 1:57pm
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Not sure of the actual rating. But I am sure that the "rating points/pound" factor is very high. Mark |
Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 2:34pm
 if you have nothing nice to say.......------------- http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
mjamja wrote:Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 3:12pm
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I thought that too when I first read it. That isn't what he was saying.
I'm sure he was saying the kid had a high ratio of points to size...hearkening back to the OP title "small korean boy" ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: The Canadian Bacon
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 3:26pm
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I would say he was rated U1800/O1500 probably mid 1600s, he has a really good serve though. |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 4:05pm
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Hmmm...since you lost to him he's pretty good. He looks like a 2200 player, but I'm guessing he was only rated about 2000. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 5:05pm
may be if he was in california lol ------------- http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 5:45pm
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When I first started watching the first game, I thought that too. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 6:09pm
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The estimate was probably provided by a forum member given everything that has been written so far. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: ThePongProfessor
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 9:46pm
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1750-1800 ? ------------- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ThePongProfessor http://mytabletennis.net/forum/feedback-thepongprofessor_topic69419.html" rel="nofollow - Feedback |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 10:43pm
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Nah. Tbs most common guesses are correct but the kid even out performef those. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 11:02pm
interesting calculation. i came up with the same result initially by comparing the same techniques used to amy wang's (i'd say she's better) and overall play to some similar aged kids. his serve return is a little weaker, yes, but playing a completely new opponent or being off-guard, it's reasonable to allow a game for adjustment. korea also likely uses age divisions so he wouldn't have come across as heavy spin before. after seeing the latter part of the match, i revised my estimated upwards to 2130 - 2180. ------------- Viscaria H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 11:15pm
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My guess is that they gave him an estimated rating of 1800, since he beat heavyspin, so the kid is probably worth 2200. The kid's service return remains much to be desired. ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/01/2015 at 11:34pm
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Everyone, heavyspin thought the kid's estimated rating was fair - his estimated rating wasn't radically low! ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 6:25am
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Wow. This kid has a lot to offer. The only serious downside is his push - too long and easy to attack, but I guess that will change with time ------------- Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3) FH: D05/G1/RX BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro |
Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 9:38am
| Instead of finding out the given estimated rating, I think we should just wait until the his rating gets processed. He must've played 15 or so matches over the weekend. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 10:01am
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My guess is that he should end up closer to .2300 He beat a lot of good players. I find it interesting that no one made specific mention of his serves. I misread them a lot and while I am a bad serve returner, I actuallyguessed the orientation right most of the time and consistently missed the amount of spin. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 10:10am
| Kids with regular training are very hard to estimate. If you let the them rally, play at their tempo, then they can look like a million bucks, even the ones at a lower level. However, I think this kid is a real deal, his footwork is excellent. I don't know enough about rating to estimate, but I think neither HS, nor NL will have a chance to beat this kid, the kid is simply better. |
Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 10:23am
| Here's a scary thought. This kid was easily the weakest of the group of Korean kids who participated at this tournament. He was relegated to a 3rd division team while the other kids formed a team in division 1 and held their own against 2600 level competition. |
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 10:55am
I think some of his pushes looked good. Plus I think he wanted his opponent to open to punish it!
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Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 3:35pm
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I think they gave this kid an estimated rating of 1800. Since the kid beat HS, so the kid is probably worth 2200. His service returns remain much to be desired. If he improves on that front, that may very well add 200 more points to his rating.
------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:03pm
Ha ha. C'mon man.... ------------- Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3) FH: D05/G1/RX BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro |
Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:26pm
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Seriously, I think if this little fella don't lose motivation to play, very soon he'll become one hell of a scary player to play against, regardless of his American rating. BTW I didn't get it, what means Korean kids exactly? Kids coming from Korea to participate in this competition, of they are American from Korean origin. ------------- Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3) FH: D05/G1/RX BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro |
Posted By: danseemiller
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:31pm
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They came from Korea- 4 of them. Their #1 team only had 3 players so this youngster joined up with some other Korean players from New Jersey. The 13 year old bookish looking junior on the # 1 team was amazing. Incredible power for someone who could not have weighed more than 100 pounds. ------------- DS |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:42pm
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Dan, do you have any idea what the coaching tools are that give kids this kind of power? |
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:52pm
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Baal, How could you ask such a question? On this forum we all know it has to be the equipment  Mark
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:53pm
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Full body torque? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: tabletennisx32
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 5:57pm
| About 1700 if here was in California |
Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 6:16pm
The story with the ratings is pretty funny.Obsession or what? Looks like a kid with no rating can beat guys with 2000 and above.....  ------------- Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3) FH: D05/G1/RX BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro |
Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 11:52pm
i played in california before and beat 2300's there. it's not bad, at least compared to nj/ny. anywhere where there's a large pool of players, incremental differences in rating are more frequent and thus not largely deviant from the norm. it's the places with fewer players and large skill gaps that it's possible to have a lower rated player who's good but just has no chance of going higher bc the next division up is a big gap up. ------------- Viscaria H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 12:09am
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Baal, the reason this kid is so good is because children learn things very quickly and very well when they are very young. A child can learn detailed techniques much faster than adults, and will retain the details better. A child's technique for any level of training would be better than that of an adult with a similar amount of training, accounting for the adult's higher level of physical fitness and motor control. All in all, it's not that the kid is being coached better per se, but rather that he learns much better. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 12:15am
You do know that Baal is a professor working in learning related/neurological fields, do you? He's asking the question in a table tennis technique context, not a general learning one. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 12:25am
| I did not know that, and there is mostl likely no table tennis context here - the kid is probably just doing the things every good coach teaches, such as body rotation as you mentioned. I don't think there's any secret here to learn. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 1:50am
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There have been kids in my club who have been coached by Chinese and European coaches and who have gotten really good. One of these is Timothy Wang, who I have known since he was 9, and played with until he was nearly 18, but he has certainly not been the only one. So I have seen how they learn and improve at an amazing rate. (I also started playing as a kid, so experienced it to some extent, but once my family returned to the US, there was not much coaching available for me -- I see what kids in California and Maryland and even my city have now in terms of coaching and I wonder how things would have been if I had had access to some of that high level advice). Some of these kids level off at much higher levels than others. In my experience, though, that level of power usually comes a little later. So I was wondering if someone knew if there were some relatively new coaching techniques that help kids generate this, or if maybe this particular Korean player is just really talented. That's all. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:26am
Exactly - the kid is closer to 2400, and that is what I don't think shows in these videos. But it will be interesting to see his actual rating when it comes out. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:39am
| I imagine these Korean kids at BTY teams are not training in the cramped conditions at BH-Man's Korean clubs or league matches. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:53am
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The guys I've played who were 2300 (and that's about where I stop being competitive at all) typically don't move as well but have better short games. The only better players I've played were Francisco Mendez and Alfred Najem. Alfred looks way way better (he was 2500 plus at that time). Fransisco was older and probably doesn't have the footwork, but his serve and return game looked quite professional in comparison. It's hard for me to see him over 2300 ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: LOOPMEISTER
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 12:10pm
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I'd be really surprised if he's over 2300... Being a lefty might make it difficult to pinpoint his level. To people who have trouble with lefties, he might appear to be 2500. -------------
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 1:31pm
Partly because you are overestimating the importance of the short game for how he plays and underestimating his ability to cover it up with his rally skills. Georgina Pota for example almost never pushes short. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 2:54pm
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So the poster who said he pushed long just to sucker the opponent into starting the rally wasn't completely off-base? ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 3:00pm
Of course he wasn't completely off base. I thought he was fairly obviously correct Why should a short player who is good at rallying push short? Virtually all my points against him from topspins came when.I managed to.get him.to.give me a half long push to attack. I could not really rally with the kid. I have played many 2100 kids and the inevitable losing in the rally that I experienced against that kid tends to start at 2300 for kids. The kid may have lost to one of the kids on the Quebec team but we shall see ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 3:14pm
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is the kid a Korean born player, is he on tour, is he a resident, or American ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 3:14pm
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I hadn't thought about the fact that he is short so he shouldn't push short. I've always had long arms. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 3:19pm
| I should have been more clear in my original post. The boy was fresh of the boat from Korea, just visiting. |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 3:29pm
------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 4:55pm
I am usually off base or sarcastic, so your initial impression of my post is logical.... But when you are clearly a level or two above your opponent and can destroy their opening shots it is a fun way to play. Also as nextlevel said, short/junior players often do not have good short games be that due to size or even personality.
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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 5:33pm
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Here I thought he was just misreading the serves. I didn't get the impression he was a level above Bavly nor two above NL, but really I can only judge up to like 2100. If this kid is 2400, there's clearly something I'm not seeing. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 5:41pm
Larry is a 2300+ player with difficulties moving so you don't see the difference. For the things I do well, I thought I should have tricked him but I kept underestimating the kid's spin. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 5:56pm
Wait a minute...Larry WAS 2300 in the early 90s but has been 2050 +/- 50 for the past couple of years. ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 6:03pm
Sure, if you read my post the way I intended it, you will see that. If you really think Larry is a typical 2000 player like say myself, play him with your anti. You may be surprised at how many chances you get to hit the ball if any because Larry's problem is usually keeping his form while moving quickly, not power generation or spin manipulation or ball control. If you let Larry open, you are usually toast. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 6:22pm
Look dude, I don't want to argue with (though it seems to end that way with a lot of people in many threads) but based on his current rating Larry is a solid 2000+ guy who may have some 2300 strokes. It's not about how a certain style (like my style) works or doesn't work against Larry. Most players have some limitation(s), some players have great strokes and don't move well, others are great movers but have weaker shots but at the end of the day the overall rating or strength of a player is the sum of all things. This thread was not about how I or my anti would do against Larry but I just wanted to put this in perspective to Larry's rating. ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 6:27pm
Understood, Matt. Fine, Larry is 2400 strokes in a 600 rated body. I hope my perspective is understood too. Cheers. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 7:30pm
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Wow , exciting. C'mon guys don't make me wait...... Who's next. Give us some attitude ------------- Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3) FH: D05/G1/RX BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 10:14pm
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I thought Bavely was 2200. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:19pm
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yea he's around 2200 at best currently (bavly). i've seen him play a few times. probably bad days = 2050. good days 2200. avg between 2125? his techniques are a mix of ok and a few good ones but makes up for it with a lot of exp. after watching the match with NL, i revise my estimate of the krn kid to upper 2200's to low 2300's. not just technique, he has also demonstrates a great deal of exp despite his age. you can see the certainty in his plays like he'd done it so many times, no hesitation. sometimes NL thought he read the ball correctly and wasn't sure why he missed, but actually the kid changed the contact, varying the trajectory, spin, and speed, resulting in an earlier or later drop. mizutani described such in a tutorial before. not many ppl can do that in the middle of a game. now if that were accidental, that's another thing, but the confidence in his play leads me to believe they're intentional.
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Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:27pm
no a memory of a player who was better 20 years ago means he is better than his flat line rating of 2050 going back 3 years =2200 or we can do what others have done and see Larry has played plenty of times and has a fairly accurate rating of just over 2000 ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:52pm
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Those ratings probably contain matches (lots of them) that Larry played as a chopper. But in any case, we are detracting from my main point. As an analogy, I could just have said that Jim Butler is a 2650 player with fitness issues due to age. Or that George Braithwaite is now a 2100 player who can lose to 1800 players because of the inconsistent nature of old age. But I appreciate being corrected by people who interpret me literally just to win arguments. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 11:57pm
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Kurokami, There are reasons I do not use my name on this website and even if I did, I do not know you personally and I do not appreciate your using my name, which you did in the past even when I explicitly avoided it. If you continue to use my name, I will find yours and use it publicly on this website Please use the name I chose to call myself on this website going forward to avoid any issues and edit the post you just made. Thanks. NL ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/04/2015 at 1:44am
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Forum members, please don't use people's actual names without their permission. |
Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 12/04/2015 at 5:31pm
| My level of play in recent years varies from tournament to tournament largely based on how my lower body feels. My game has suffered the most when I've competed despite having achilles tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, or leg circulation issues. Other than a minor ankle twist against the Korean boy at this tournament, my discomfort was minimal so I played in the 2100-2200 range and expect my rating to rise significantly when the ratings are processed. |
Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 12/04/2015 at 6:20pm
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Heavyspin agrees :D 21-2200. Sry NL I thought you had left your videos in the forum where it shows your name so I figured it's fine. I'll use your alias going fw. ------------- Viscaria H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
Posted By: danseemiller
Date Posted: 12/07/2015 at 11:08am
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USA Table tennis is doing them this week. Should be out Friday ------------- DS |
Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 12/07/2015 at 11:51am
That would be uncharacteristically fast... but if you have already processed and submitted everything then, yes, they should post it by Friday. With JOOLA Teams I do not expect the results before Jan 8, frankly. But they have a sort of excuse - they have so many (literally on the order of hundreds, well maybe just above one hundred) either unrated players or players with expired memberships and outdated ratings that they need extra time to properly process all the membership paperwork. ------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |