Anyone has the same problem or any suggestion to it? I think that many might have the same problem.

Thanks. I think I have done all these. I feel my problem is that when my paddle contacts the ball, it hit the weight center of the ball, so it creates only little spin. To create more spin, I have to hit the upper or lower part of the ball. It is just very hard to do that consistently. Maybe, more practice is what I need?

you should brush the upper part of the ball with your wrist. Then your able to create more spin on your loops. I guess your problem is that you contact the ball too flat, with too little wrist and fore am acceleration. The cause of this problem can be that your grip is to firm,too tense. Relax your grip!

Actually you can loop underspin with a closed blade and this is the more modern technique.  In the modern technique you overcome the underspin by swinging the racket fast enough that the racket is moving faster (tangentially to the ball) than the underspin is spinning backwards.  If the blade is faster than the underspin at contact, the reaction is actually as if you were hitting a light topspin ball instead of hitting an underspin one. You get maximum tangential speed if your swing plane angle matches your blade angle (max brushing) so you want to trying and match these up.  But what angle do you use. 

There is no one right angle in terms of getting the ball back, but different angles have different difficulties and benefits.  If you use a neutral blade angle then you have to swing straight up to match swing plane to blade angle.  Because you are swinging straight up you need less racket speed to overcome the underspin since the more upward motion helps lift the ball more.   If the ball is travelling almost horizontally, using a vertical swing means the timing will be more difficult.  This is why you most often see the vertical swing loop used by letting the ball start to drop (move more vertical) before swinging.  The more vertical stroke also produces a slower ball since none of the swing energy is going into producing forward motion.  As you close your blade a little (say to 70deg) your swing will be primarily up, but will need to be a little forward as well.  You get less lift from the swing direction (less upward) so you have to swing faster to overcome the same amount of topspin as with the vertical swing.  However, you do get a lower and faster ball with the more forward swing. 

For non-world class players a 45 deg angle is probably the maximum practical angle for normal pushes.   Of course if the underspin ball bounces high enough more closed angles can be used.

One thing to mention is that the swing plane angle is determined by how far back in your stance you contact the ball.  For a vertical swing you need to position yourself (or let the ball travel) so that you contact the ball when it is even with your hitting arm shoulder.  For 60-70 deg swing you will need to contact the ball more forward like just in front of the hitting arm side toe.  For 45 deg you will be contacting the ball more even with the non-hitting arm foot.

One way to practice this is to use an empty small plastic water bottle with the ball sitting on the open top.  Put the bottle on your Bh corner of the table (right at edge) and stand to the outside of the table positioned so the ball is about even with the middle of you back foot and the right distance to your right (for right handers) for comfortable contact.  Practice swinging with the blade at about 60 deg and the swing angle the same.  You should be able to hit the ball off the top of the bottle without hitting the bottle.

Good luck.

Mark

Thanks a lot, Mark.

The looping curve is generally a semi-circle. Where would you contact the ball with the paddle?

Also, when would you fold your forearm in the swing plane? I read some chinese articles that said one should start to fold the forearm about a couple of inches before contacting the ball.

Also when to start to twist the wrist? 

I normally focus on making a straight line swing from the knee, through the contact point, and up to about shoulder high.   There is some curve as I start the swing forward with hip rotation until the racket comes around and clears my body.  There is also curve in the follow through after the racket reaches shoulder high.  I do not think too much about the curve parts since if I get the straight line part right they come out right naturally.

Remember that the kind of loop you have decided to hit, slow, normal, aggressive will determine the angle of the straight line swing.

This is a simplification of course.  But it is hard to describe just in words.

You want max blade speed at contact so any elbow closure or wrist action needs to start before contact, but not so early that it has already started to slow down at ball contact.  That couple of inches suggestion seems like a good starting point.  Experiment a little to get a feel for what gets the most spin for you.  Sometimes you have to think about doing it earlier or later because where you are thinking you do it, is not actually where it takes place. 

Mark

I understand is that when the right foot (right handed player) starts to push from the floor, the body weight shifts and the forearm starts to fold, then the paddle will make contact with the ball. 

I watched a couple of videos. Several players did not start to push their rights foots until almost contacting the ball. 

a. off the bounce or on the rise - it is when you loop the underspin ball before it reaches the highest peak of its bounce. This is done using a closed angle about 30 degrees? of you racket angle based on the table. You need to close the angle because you are looping the ball above the playing surface of the table. This means using speed and hitting the ball more through the sponge to overpower the underspin. This is the fastest kind of loop but the least accurate and also the spin is less with more emphasis on the speed. You can also brush the ball lightly but it isn't that fast and not that effective. Great for half long serves and gives your opponent less time to react.

b. peak timing - when you loop the ball at its highest height of bounce or its peak height. This has the best ratio of speed and spin but it is not as fast as the off the bounce or not as spinny as the late contact. You can contact the ball through the sponge or brush it lightly but hitting through the sponge is the optimal idea. May be done at about 45 degree angle racket.

c. late or after the peak contact - this is done when you loop the ball after it begins to go down towards the floor or table. This is the easiest kind of loop to do, the most accurate and has the most spin but has lesser speed than the first 2. Also, if you opponent gives you heavy underspin pushes or he chops your topspin, then for a  mere mortal this is the kind of timing you use to loop the ball. Brush loops or looping the ball thinly are the spinniest at this timing but tend to be slower. You can also hit through the sponge to give extra speed. Can be done at about 50-60 degree racket angle.

Now of the 3 kinds of loop timing mentioned, which are you trying to do? all of these are looping strokes but they differ in timing and contact. They are classified that way in order to give you a better understand and make you choose which one you are trying to do or learn.

Thanks, Yogi.

I tried to do the third type: looping on the early drop from the highest point. To me, spin is the most fascinating part of table tennis. 

QUOTE=yogi_bear]there are about 3 types of looping vs. underspin generally based on timing.[/QUOTE]

If you don't have video for yourself, your self-awareness is limited.  Even if you don't want to share video, get video of yourself and analyze it.  We really can't help you but you really need to help yourself.

PS - warning. don't fall in love with this stroke. It can lead to bad habits if used too often. I tend to use this as my main forehand stroke and often times I deal with not having enough power. I'm currently working on mixing in more drive/power strokes.

I realize that I did not push my legs against the floor and  turn my waist before contacting ball. My grip of the paddle also leads to the paddle facing too much upward. Any other suggestion?

I also observed that I flipped my wrist a little bit before hitting the ball.

Kindof99,

I think you are doing something very similar to my problem that showed up in the video I posted in the "Loopkill against Block (the video)" thread.

When you start you backswing your shoulders rotate, but the arm and the racket do not.  Instead the arm (upper and forearm) move almost straight backward.  You start with your elbow well out in front of your shoulder line (imaginary line running between the right and left shoulders and extending out in each direction).  By the time you finish your shoulder rotation the elbow is well behind the now rotated shoulder line.  The elbow also has to move up as it goes back.  So at the end of your shoulder rotation (when the backswing should be finished) you still have to pull the forearm out to the side so that the Fh blade face is now facing toward the table.

If you look at your swing at 0.25 speed on you-tube you can see that during much of the backswing you can clearly see the complete Bh side (red) of your blade.  If you were rotating the arm out as the shoulders turned you would quickly see the edge (tip end) of the blade only (no red) and then start seeing the black Fh side start to appear.  By the time the shoulders turned about 3/4 of the amount you are doing you would already have the racket out to your side and the Fh blade facing the table.

With your extra arm movement backward and up, you have to start your forward swing with your arm (to get back in line with the shoulders) and this means most of the time you hit the ball with mainly arm motion, with the shoulder turn happening mostly after ball contact.  If you look closely at the start of your forward swing you can see that initially you have to swing slightly down (to get that raised elbow back into position) then you can start the normal approximately 45 deg upward swing.  This complicates your timing and robs you of some of your forward power.

You do not pull the elbow back and up as much as I do, so you are able to recover to a more normal swing than I do, but I think it still  is affecting you.  Shadow stroke and focus on not moving the arm at all relative to your upper body.  Just turn at the hips and as the shoulders turn the racket should first move almost straight to the right.  Then as it moves in a circle (around your point of rotation) it will start moving back and to the right.  Just before the end of the backswing (after following about a 1/4 circle path) the racket will be moving almost straight back and the Fh blade face should be at the perfect angle (facing the table) for ball contact.  You can continue with more rotation if you are flexible enough and want more power, but essentially at the end of the 1/4 circle you could stop.   If you do it this way you should find that you can get the racket into hitting position with less initial shoulder turn than you used before and that you can start your forward swing just by rotating the hips back in the opposite direction instead of having to make all the arm motion adjustments you are doing in the video.

I will try to make a demo video with both motions tomorrow if I can get my video cameral working.

I am getting much better results thinking of "rotate the racket out to the right" instead of thinking "take the racket back".  Maybe thinking that way to initiate your backswing will help you also.

Mark

I generally started twisting my wrist before contacting the ball. And well, my set up is not the best for learning as you suggest. 

And of course, my timing of contact needs a lot of improvement. I knew that in the video, several balls did not pass the net due to too late contacts. 

It will take a while to work on these issues.

I tried to brush more, but have not succeeded fixing my techniques.

To brush more, what should I do?

1), more wrist twist?

2), more elbow snap as NextLevel suggested?

3), more weight transfer from right to left?

4), more forward motion?

I actually started to have the feeling of brush the ball after I started this post. I used to have a linear looping motion, which resulting in almost no spin. 

at 1.20 you can see how u need contact the ball to create topspin with your wrist. you seem to use your wrist more to create speed.

You didn't flip your wrist a little - the wrist naturally does that if you are relaxed.

Your loop is not bad - you just are putting more into pace than you are into rotation/spin.  And to change it you can either brush more or contact the ball more off center.  I think contacting the ball off center will fit your mindset better, but you need to learn both.  The key to brushing is really to time the elbow snap so that it happens when you are close to the ball so that it throws the wrist forward and into/around the ball.

So I would say work on 

1) snapping the elbow closer to the ball.

2) work on looping more slowly but giving the ball more spin and less pace.  Look at the video from Skyline for how the wrist can do this.

3) work on looping hard but contacting the ball off center - hit it around the side top and not from behind. but still finish in the direction you want the ball to go in - don't produce sidespin.

All of those will give you more spin than you are getting now.

Nicely done Mark.  One thing I noticed in his video that was also apparent in your video is that for medium speed strokes, the problems aren't that obvious.  You might feel like you don't have the consistency you want, but it probably doesn't feel too bad.  However, when he or you go for a strong shot (power loop, loopkill, etc.), the attempt at extra power exaggerates the flaws in your stroke.  I suppose an analogy would be if your car shutters and chugs at 60 mph.  When you try to drive at 120 mph, the car is impossible to control and quickly crashes.

This is a good example of why we work on perfecting our mechanics are lower speeds, so there aren't those flaws at higher speeds.

 

Thanks. But I would rather not try it. I just see another EJing coming with short pips.

I think you were suggesting that I hit too much, especially on back hand. Right?

I have a friend who plays short pips on forehand and people ask him why.  Even though he answered for the fun of it, the real reason he does that is he can't get the stroke right.  Nevertheless, he has a nasty backhand but it just doesn't translate on the forehand.  Once, we were warming up and he commented about how my forehand had so much sting compared to that of another friend even after training for so many years.  The gist?  Talent.

I guess that I will keep practicing until I get it right. I might have to get some serious coaching if needed. 

I actually have  improved a lot since I started the post, . My problem is that I only play in the local club and everyone tried to teach me something. I have tried many fancy stuff that I probably should not have tried. Right now, I think I will stick with the fundamental and improve the consistence for the moment.

I used to play those rush table tennis just for fun. So I tend to play too fast and aim for the kill. I think I will slow down more and try to do more slow loop maybe.

That is the mighty advice that should solve some of my problem.  I have not switched my mindset from hitting to looping, so I try to hit hard every time I see a ball pass the net. I have tried to receive the ball when it drops. BUt damn, it is not easy to do that consistently. That is the mindset that I need to adjust to.

when you say kill.. i really recommend staying away from those slaps that beginners use. Stay away from flat smacks as much as you can. Your ball doesn't have a lot of energy. You can increase both spin and speed simultaneously, so even when you drive very hard you still do it with topspin and bend the ball around the net. No bend no success. I never aim to win points with spin. Spin is only a tool to bend the ball around the net. That, and to add stability to the flight path, just like a bullet has to spin if you want it to have stable flight.

Good observation. I often changed my grip at the contact point just for convenience of hitting the ball. 

Thanks, NL. Will try to update with some more videos in the future.

I spotted more problems than I thought with these videos. Maybe I should start to record my play more regularly. 

Forehand drill 2

what i spoted is that you need to increase your recovery time and also it seems maybe im wrong of course that if they move you a little the things are getting messy.
just work on that.
apart from that really good swing.
once you improve some minor things you will increase your level ++

IF you are working on your game, you should always record it and review it while you are there if there is no coach.  If there is a coach, you can wait till you get home unless you have no clue what he is talking about.  Over time, your mind and your body will become more together so you can review less, but recording is the only way to know what you are actually doing.  Your brain deceives you.

I think it's lower than that - but why even bother asking? You are in US (at least your profile says so), looks like there is a decent crowd in your club, so I presume there must be tournaments around. Sign up for a tournament or two and find out . 

Fair enough - then if you have clubmates with USATT rating, see how you do against them. It's going to be a somewhat optimistic estimate, since people don't take club matches that seriously, but it will give you an idea. 

ALso I tended to push a lot if I started a push mode. I absolutely need to adjust to loop after the first push.  I am not afraid to lose, but my mind told me to keep pushing.  And I think that is subconscious. 

You've got to involve the waist and knee as well. Just like in your avatar