Teach me the hardbat ways
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Category: Coaching & Tips
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Forum Description: Learn more about TT from the experts. Feel free to share your knowledge & experience.
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Topic: Teach me the hardbat ways
Posted By: bard romance
Subject: Teach me the hardbat ways
Date Posted: 02/18/2016 at 11:23pm
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Hey guys, A friend of mine and I want to get into the hardbat game for fun and to switch it up from sponge. Could you give some advice about where to start? Are any all-wood blades legal for USA Nationals hardbat singles/doubles play, as long as they are covered with hardbat rubber? If so getting a wood blade would not be an issue, but I'd be curious about where to buy rubbers and which ones someone new to hardbat should get. Also what would be some key adjustments to make and know about? This is going to be a pretty impromptu switch with little time to prepare but we are just going for a general idea to have fun with it. Thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 02/18/2016 at 11:38pm
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For a list of hardbat rubbers check here http://hardbat.com/hardbat.html" rel="nofollow - http://hardbat.com/hardbat.html (click on the "Rackets" button). Dr Evil and Peacekeeper are cheap and available at Zeropong.com and Coldest.com. The LKT Toxic 3 and Toxic 5 blades at Coldest.com and Zeropong.com are often recommended as starter hardbat blades. Sure others more knowledgeable will add to this, but that can give you a start. Mark |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 12:00am
| Thanks for the advice mjamja. I think we'll probably get the OFF- version since we have good ball feel and control in general. It seems like a limited selection of rubber but ideally we'd go for whichever is easiest to transition from the sponge game. The DR Evil claims to be that. |
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 12:02am
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The major difference in hardbat is that it is more difficult to generate spin and especially to return the same spin as the incoming shot (topspin against topspin or underspin against underspin). The classic hardbat game was often one of spin continuation where one player hit topspin and the other responded with chops. If the attacker was forced to push because of a great chop or if the attacker hit a weak topspin, then the roles would reverse. At lower levels (my level) close to table blocking against topspin is also a workable strategy as the hardbat does allow for blocking short enough that attacks are difficult to maintain and for blocking at wide angles to get your opponent out of position. In more modern hardbat play you do see more topspin vs topspin rallies using strokes with similarities to the modern loop stroke. I think you see more long serving and more topspin serves in hardbat play than in spoinge. Attacking in general and especially attacking against topspin is more difficult with hardbat so long serves and topspin are not punished as badly as in spoinge play. For me the major technique difference is not closing the blade when driving against topspin and not opening the blade up too much when pushing underspin. When hitting topspin I also try to have a more vertical stroke than I would with my sponge racket. Not sure if this is the "correct" adjustment, but it seems to work for me. Mark
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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 7:53am
| mjamja thanks for the advice. I'm sure a lot of it will just be getting the racket and trying things out and using our experience in the game to apply it to the new conditions. If anyone else has any advice about things to know for USATT Nationals hardbat play (rules/regulations etc) that would be great to hear. Thanks. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 4:13pm
Hi bard romance, For USATT Nationals hardbat play and U.S. Open hardbat play you must use an all-wood blade covered with an approved hard rubber (see www.hardbat.com for a list of currently approved rubbers for hardbat play). The handle, however, may have a decorative inlay or an inlay with (for example) the name of the blade's manufacturer. Again, the striking surface has to be completely wood, and any blade that is not intended for recreational play and pre-manufactured with already affixed rubber is permissible. The rubber must be the same brand same thickness on both sides. It need not be the same color. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
bard romance wrote:Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 7:44pm
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I recommend the following. Blades> Hunter Hawk, Valor Big Stick or American Chopper, Old Hock 3-ply (if you can find one), Nittaku Resist, TSP Yanagi 3-ply, Joola Tony Hold White Spot. These blades are flexible with huge control. I even loop with my Hunter Hawk with nice spin. Rubbers> Butterfly Orthodox, Yasaka A-1-2, Yasaka Cobalt, Valor Premier, or get Classique from Coles TT cheap. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 8:09pm
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" any blade that is not intended for recreational play and pre-manufactured with already affixed rubber is permissible" You lost me on that one, Berndt. Can anyone elaborate? ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/19/2016 at 11:21pm
Yeah. I can, I think. You can't use a Sportcraft or a Stiga or a Martin-Kilpatrick racket with rubber already affixed to it at the U.S. Nationals or U.S. Open. You may, however, at the discretion of a tournament organizer at a tournament other than these use such a racket if the tournament organizer gives his/her approval or if there are not enough hard rubber rackets for everyone who wishes to play in a hard rubber event or events. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: gnopgnipster
Date Posted: 02/20/2016 at 10:37am
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Check Valor Table Tennis for the biggest selection of hardbat equipment in the USA. All our hardbat blades are handmade specially for hardbat play (although they can also be used for regular table tennis), and all our hardbat rubber is hardbat legal. I can think of a suggestion in one post on this thread were the rubber was not hardbat legal. CHEERS! ------------- Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 02/20/2016 at 4:43pm
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I believe "Classique" from Coles TT is not approved yet. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: cje
Date Posted: 02/21/2016 at 4:49am
not so sure about using a modern OFF- blade. Having played quite a bit of hardbat & sandpaper TT over the last few years, I've found that blades made for hardbat play are FAR superior. I started with a modern allround blade before I picked up an old Barna 'Large Face' balde- the difference was like night & day. By modern standards the speed would be Def/ Def- but it is large, solid & powerful. So it allows you to play defensively (though I don't in matches) and offensively-flat hits really fly!. A cheap option (taken by the best hardbat player in Scotland) is to attach hardbat rubber to one of the WCPP blades (remove the sandpaper 1st!). ------------- http://www.murrayfieldtt.com/ YEO/ Galaxy E-3/ FH: Skyline III Neo / BH: Palio HK 1997 |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/21/2016 at 9:43am
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Yes. We must go back to the hardbat days. To the fine old rare old hardbat ways When every town had a hardbat store: You could buy a hardbat for three bucks--no more. When every home had a ping pong table; You could play hardbat with your girlfriend Mable. You could play hardbat in a Studebaker. You could play hardbat with the local shoe maker. You could play hardbat with the town undertaker. You could even play hardbat with your moneymaker. Wives, daughters, sisters, fathers, mothers All played hardbat with one anothers. Not to mention with their little brothers. Hardbat was infectious, once you took the plunge. Then out of the blue, along came sponge. And now we live in the Age of Tenergy Which saps both money, time, and energy. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 02/21/2016 at 10:01am
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OK cool to know that you can use a regular all wood blade since my doubles partner has used a lot in his time, but like cje said we will probably get some that are specifically made for the play. gnopgnipster I've been recommended to Valor by quite a few people who are familiar
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Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 02/21/2016 at 5:00pm
This, of course, is one opinion. Another is: In days of old, when knights were bold,
slow ping pong was much lamented. We had to play the hardbat way 'til speedy sponge'd been invented. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/21/2016 at 7:59pm
In days of old, when knights were bold, Ere sponge had been invented, Bold Robin Hood and Little John Played hardbat, quite contented. They played with blades of stoutest yew; Rubber from Leyland town. And as their names grew great with fame Folk came from miles around To Sherwood Forest for to see These two stalwarts draw down. But evil King John got wind of this And declared hardbat forbidden. And for the next several hundred years The hardbat game was hidden. 'Til in 1901 one E.C. Goode Who played with a wooden bat, Put a chemist's cash mat on his blade; Rediscovered where hardbat's at. To those who know pong's history The rest is no great mystery. The game has changed beyond repair, And this be true whether hip or square. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: IanMcg
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 12:56am
| berndt_mann, are you real, or are you just Marty Reisman's spirit reincarnated? |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 4:12am
Lovely work, but ... still only your opinion. In all seriousness, I really hate it when people state their personal opinions as facts. As much as you love hardbat - and as much as I enjoy playing it too - reality is that your opinions on the state of the game remain nothing more than your opinions. Dressing your opinions up in poetry or quoting with great erudition on the history of the sport doesn't give your personal preferences any greater claim to truth than anyone else's. Just because you think it's broke doesn't make it broke.
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Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 5:46am
Well what would you have me say, Tassie 52? The game has changed, just my opinion, But supported by those in my dominion. Come now. Or how about: The game has changed, or so me thinks; I think the present situation stinks. Let's try: The game has changed; there are new rules. Does the ITTF (in its opinion, of course) consider us fools? Reality is that every contributor to this forum's opinion on the state of the sport is subjective, be it inclined towards bias or prejudice regarding 2016 table tennis or 1946 table tennis. And just because you may think glued, boosted, tensored, long pipped, antispun, foul serving, chaos at lower levels, Chopin's Minute Waltz at world class levels table tennis is just fine does not necessarily in my opinion make this version of table tennis either hunky or dory. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 6:58am
I'd be perfectly happy with this. Just the same as me saying: In days gone by there was much to love about table tennis. In my opinion there is still much to love about table tennis. Is it any better now than then? Opinions differ, but my thinking is that the changes are consistent with what we see elsewhere in our society, and longing for the good old days won't change that. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 5:50pm
| There are far more table tennis players and spectators worldwide today than there ever were in the hardbat era...and a 1000x times more table tennis tournaments of all levels are being held worldwide than in the hardbat era. The hardbat popularity myth is just a myth. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 9:36pm
------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 9:46pm
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The recent US Olympic Trials didn't have very many spectators. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: frogger
Date Posted: 02/22/2016 at 10:09pm
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I enjoy hardbat, I enjoy Tenergy, pips, wood blades, composite blades, and the friendships over the decades. I play because I love the sport. I win and I lose... that's life. I'm not a pro and never will be that's fine with me. Let all the bickering about this and that just fade away. Enjoy the sport as you see fit as it will be played long after we are all just a faded memory. ------------- Wood Paddle Red side Black side. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 02/23/2016 at 12:19am
As if these guys could outnumber all the spectators at the WTTC final rounds, countless Pro Tours finals and Olympics finals for the past twenty years. And this hardbat match was played in a HOTEL for crying out loud. Not even a real sport. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 02/23/2016 at 12:26am
Check this out: |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 02/23/2016 at 12:29am
| ...too funny. |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 02/23/2016 at 12:46am
True dat. I enjoyed playing hardbat the one and only time, in a tourney where forum member jfolsen let me use one of hiz hardbat setups. Got pics, it waz fun. I enjoy playing vs Boston's duo of 2000 level O60 gents who are full time Hardbatters and play 2000 vs inverted with their hardbats, I like fighting vs them with my 2x inverted to spin them off the table vs them fighting to hit and counter me off it. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 02/23/2016 at 8:14am
So....these were cardboard mannequins, not even real people, international table tennis could not have possibly been played in hotels eight decades ago, and there were no Men's and Women's Singles World Championships. Victor Barna, Miklos Szabados, Laszlo Bellak, Sandor Glancz, Sol Schiff, Jimmy McClure, Lou Pagliaro and Buddy Blattner, whom I suspect were participants in this imaginary event, were all figments of my fevered imagination, as there was no such sport as table tennis in 1935, and if there was such a thing, it wasn't a sport anyway, because spectators watched it in ballrooms (or Wembley Stadium in London, for example), and anyone who wanted to watch this nonexistent sport had to learn about an international event such as that depicted in the picture above by the mythical Mr. Boggan through word of mouth, radio, or newspapers. The hardbat gods and goddesses of the pagan past of this now wonderful sport with all its magical events, filled stadiums, and scientific scintillation are shaking their heads in deep amaze. Too funny. Table tennis began in 1988 when the Olympics recognized it as an Olympic Sport. Or maybe with the 40 mm. ball. Or maybe with the 11-point game. Or maybe with boosters replacing speed glues. Or maybe it'll be a real sport once the ITTF comes up with a new diabolically lackadaisical plan to muck it up once more. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 03/05/2016 at 10:26pm
| Does anybody know which day of the week the Hardbat Doubles event usually is, at Nationals? |