No toss serve
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Printed Date: 05/05/2024 at 6:47am
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Topic: No toss serve
Posted By: Pongz
Subject: No toss serve
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 2:28am
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Hi forumers, Can someone please explain to me again exactly where the advantage of the illegal no toss serve? I played a short pimple player... in one occasion he did a no toss short serve... He did it so beautifully that the ball had double bounced by the time I reached it... I know this was illegal serve.. But I was in awe on how the ball moved so quick... so low... He can't do the short serve that effective if he has to toss the ball... Also, regardless how my opponent is serving i.e. toss or no toss, I normally move after my opponent's bat hit the ball... so the 'illegal' benefit must be after he hit the ball.... but what exactly this is?  Thanks ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
Replies:
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 10:39am
| No toss servers should be crushed with maximum amount of offense and humiliation, without regard for their age, gender, or anything else. Very often they are high level and there would be very little investment necessary on their side to adopt a legal serve, but they prefer to play 'uninformed' and take 2-3 extra points every game. I make a point of being extra obnoxious so to make a scene they never forget. I don't even get upset inside as they are not that rare. I just want to extract maximum effect from the scene, try to get everybody watching and finding out what this is about, so the cheater feels uncomfortable even the next match, against a player who doesn't protest. If you understand the decision that those people have consciously made you wont feel bad when you humiliate them. |
Posted By: ri0t1
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 10:50am
You Victor, make a scene... No way >.> ------------- Xiom Europe Vegas|FH Tenergy 05|BH:Tenergy 05FX| |
Victor_the_cleaner wrote:Posted By: mycuzinvinny
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 2:41pm
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Pongz, I think you hit one of the reasons in your example above, 'timing' for the receiver. It can be so quick and unexpected for the returner, that it becomes an advantage for the server. Also, I have seen it where the toss is so low, the hand follows the ball and it becomes lost in site behind the servers hand, another advantage. I called my opponent on it in league play, kept stopping play, frustrating him. In the end I forced him to stop his no toss quick backhand serve, and then he called me a cheater for winning the match. |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 3:29pm
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I've observed two kinds of low toss players. The first is just someone who has played for years and just doesn't care enough to change since he isn't doing much with the serve beyond putting it into play. These are usually older players who started playing in the '60s or earlier. These players are breaking the rules, but they any advantage they gain by the low toss (not much, if any) is negated by the fact that they don't try to gain much advantage with their serves. The other kind of player uses a low toss specifically to gain an advantage. This is frequently from a timing change where they will low-toss/quick serve you at a critical juncture. You can almost predict it based on the situation. Aside from the timing change, another advantage of the low toss is that many are actually backwards tosses as well. So they can get more speed and/or spin in addition to the timing change. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 5:18pm
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These without a doubt are the worst of the cheating serves! It is the one cheat that I cannot ever improve against and have no interest in doing so. It cheats the returner from the timing entirely. It also cheats the returner from being able to get a focus on the ball. wturber is right about the situation and when people tend to do these serves. Only recently have I observed this in my own matches - it's another advantage of having experience. Most of the time I think it is because they are under pressure and it's just harder to toss that ball up. I could be wrong on that. I did correct one guy after a practice match about his low/no toss serves and he told me to tell him the moment I see them when we play again. I'm not going to have my league/tourney matches under the eye of a ref most of the time so hiding the ball and extra deception on serves will slip through, however not throwing the ball up gives me no chance at all. ------------- TB ZLF inverted inverted |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 7:36pm
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I recently watched a game in the Australian open between Buddy Reid the recent winner at the World veterans (I think in the over 75's) and a young Australian player, after a few low trow serves Buddy was warned then had a point taken off, the young player then indicated to the umpire to not worry so the rest of the game Buddy just did low toss serves So it was acceptable for the current world champion to not to do legal serves because he is older It not something I worry about ,Im just telling the story ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 8:02pm
I just took a quick look at some video of Buddy Reid and he seems to fall clearly in that category of being an older player who is not doing much at all to gain an advantage on his serve. He's mostly just putting the ball in play. The younger player you referenced understood this and probably because of this and as a deference to Buddy's seniority preferred not to have the infraction penalized. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: Pongz
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 8:36pm
Thanks for all the responses so far...  Though I also feel frustrated with illegal serves such as no toss serve, but my main question is about the 'science' or the 'why'... I am challenging the assumption that the benefit of no toss serve is about throwing your timing off... Maybe it is not that simple... My opponent did not rush the serve, I was in ready position... The ball simply moved/bounced in the air as ideally as possibly from what I can see... He can repeat the no toss serve quite consistently producing the 'ideal' movement in my opinion, but he can't produce it if he has to toss the serve... Also, I experiment myself, I also notice my serve is 'better' i.e. lower, quicker, shorter with no toss serve than toss serve... In these two scenarios, there is no 'throwing your timing off' factor... Comes to think about it, the only difference between these two serves, one ball is basically stationary whereas the other one was moving downward by gravitation when the ball was hit... so the ball's movement must make my or my friend toss serve not as effective as the no toss serve.. If I can understand the mechanic and know how to counter this, my aim is to improve my short serve.. Imagine if we can produce the no toss serve using the toss serve.... if I make sense... Regards ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 8:47pm
Then he has a timing problem himself. The way to serve fast and long is to hit the ball at a low height. the less the ball is moving vertically, the easier it is to do that. So yes, a low toss serve will help a player do that. It makes it a little bit simpler to time the ball contact. But no, it isn't necessary.
Sure. See above.
All that is needed to compensate for the very slight vertical speed of the dropping ball is a slightly different difference in racket angle and perhaps speed of contact. With practice, you should be able to replicate any no-toss serve with a legal 6-8 inch toss. ------------- Jay Turberville www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
Posted By: Pongz
Date Posted: 07/18/2016 at 9:17pm
Thanks wturber... Your answer does make sense... so in effect you are saying: 1. my or my friend toss serve was not as low as the no toss serve... 2. racket angle to compensate the vertical speed... so to produce short no spin ball, I should open the racket to hit the ball more horizontally?? 3. speed of contact to compensate vertical speed means maybe to loosen up the finger?? Is that right? Comes to think about it, I do have different stance for no toss and toss serve... I normally bent lower for no toss serve... maybe I should try the same stance to see any difference... Thanks ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 1:19am
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Timing is the most obvious advantage gained from no toss serves, but not the only one. With a serve that has no vertical motion it becomes much easier to disguise the difference between top and bottom spin serves. I've seen players use no-toss serves and they can generate very different spins with no visible change in the serve motion. It's just so much easier with no toss than with a falling serve. I also think its' easier to disguise the length (short, half-long, long) of the serve when there is no toss.
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Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 1:41am
| In my personal experience, and I have become quite sensitive to this issue, the people with the no toss serve are always aware that the rules require a toss. As a matter of fact they have no problem serving with the toss; they just lose serve quality. These are people with rotten morals. Sometimes I exaggerate, but in this case I am not. Rotten morals: they consciously take the decision to cheat and get more points. I mess with them even when I don't play. They deserve no mercy, they deserve insults and humiliation and to be turned into example. You know, for one thing the Balkans are better than Americans - we have no manners and very low tolerance for this kind of sh1t. Americans are ALWAYS avoiding confrontation. 'He is an old man'.. I don't want to hear it! Have some balls for once in your life! Go confront somebody! |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 6:09am
Wow, you are my new hero in table tennis!! |
Posted By: Pongz
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 8:46am
Absolutely agree... I am trying to understand the reason behind it. At least, these are the differences between my no toss and toss services: 1. Much lower stance, initial ball's position is on my eye level for no toss 2. Much less hand movement for no toss. 3. Much shorter initial distance between my bat and ball (Actually sometimes, I just tap the ball for no toss and it looks good and effective to my eyes.) 4. Much less 'information' is given to the opponent due to 2&3?? ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
Posted By: Pongz
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 8:47am
I can see your point Victor  ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 3:58pm
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With the discussion of intentional no toss serves, I want to point out that unintentional no toss serves area also frequent. What I've observed in a great many cases is that people who toss the ball for their normal short serves will suddenly do no toss when using their long fast serve. For the under 2200 crowd, I would call this a very common problem. And usually they are completely unaware of it (because all their other serves do have a vertical toss). When I point this out to people in tournaments, they genuinely seem unaware of it. They also seem genuinely unable to add a toss to their long fast serve (at that moment, in that match; I'm sure they could learn with practice).
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Posted By: Pongz
Date Posted: 07/19/2016 at 9:44pm
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I see your point... Some serves like the backhand or tomahawk serves probably fall in this category too... It is easy not to toss the ball high enough with these kind of serves... some people just toss the ball very low and drop their palm... so it looks like a legal serve... but it is not legal... ------------- Butterfly Sardius FH Donic Barracuda BH Tibhar MX-P |