Should the USATT switch their ball choice
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Topic: Should the USATT switch their ball choice
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Subject: Should the USATT switch their ball choice
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 3:41am
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Assume all the balls listed above are 3* Should the USATT switch their ball choice from Nittaku Premium 40+ to another brand for the US Open and US Nationals ? Reasons DHS 40+ is used on World Pro Tour and a lot cheaper Nittaku Premium Cost is $2.50 each, their training balls cost more than the DHS 3* 40+ Why should USA players have pay high prices for balls in a minor sport which does not make it user friendly for new participants to grow the sport. Ask your non playing friends,relatives, co-workers if it makes sense to them. EDIT ADDED What countries outside of Japan are the NP40+ mostly used ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Replies:
Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 6:43am
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Sure, as soon as alternative US Open/Nationals sponsor is identified and current contract with Nittaku runs out. As far as it being obstacle to newcomers in TT - no one forces new players to use NP 40+ when they pick up paddle for the first time. ------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 6:49am
Not until they start playing in Sanctioned tournaments using the Nittaku Premium 40+ or being trained by coaches who use them. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
pgpg wrote:Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 7:05am
Not sure about tournaments and coaches in Pongville, but where I live, I do not have to pay for tournament balls or bring a bag of balls from specific brand to coaching session (and I'm yet to see a coach using NP 40+ for lessons - that's what training balls are for). There are plenty obstacles facing TT beginners, but the fact that US Open uses NP40+ is probably way down on that list. You are entitled to your opinion, of course. ------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 7:33am
You have valid points on beginners. There are clubs in my area which require all players to use house NP 40+ balls unless both players agree on a different ball. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:25am
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If the house supplies the NP 40's, why would anyone care. We use 4 or 5 different balls at our club and nobody seems to care. |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:27am
============ Same in our club. Players bring their own balls.
------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:36am
Because the house balls are well used past new, so you can't even use your own new NP 40+ unless the other player agrees. Some won't agree to use another brand. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 12:16pm
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Before we get too excited about this, let's wait and make sure that the quality that we were seeing with early batches of D40+ balls will be maintained, which we are not yet sure about. However, if so, one might consider changing, depending on some other factors, which I certainly don't know. USATT should save money if they can, and while NP40+ is a great ball that most people like, it is the most expensive ball on the market. On the other hand, if Nittaku and USATT has a sponsorship agreement and USATT gets the balls for free or at a reduced price, then don't change. If we don't know the answers to these questions we can't make a rational decision. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 12:18pm
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Regarding "house balls", most of the places I have played in the US don't supply balls, players bring balls. At my club people have preferred NP40+ for serious play and XSF and Yinhe seamless for multiballs and lessons (also Nittaku JTop), but the D40+ has definitely been catching on. But again, people bring their own balls. |
Posted By: Vince64
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 12:27pm
------------- ustabletennisresults.com https://www.facebook.com/groups/408008237063185 |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 12:44pm
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I wish we had that problem, and although the NP is well liked, the preference of the ball snobs locally seems to be for the Butterfly ball. Yuck! ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 1:00pm
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Our club supplies the balls. One or two want to use their own NP 40's, but most use whatever I buy (mostly nexy, kingnick and yinhee). I've never seen a DHS ball at the club. Most of our players fall under the 1200 level and probably wouldn't know the difference anyway. We have 6 or 7 1700+ level players and they don't really care either. I think if you're looking for differences you will find them. When we miss the table we just assume it's our fault. It never occurs to us that it's the ball, the rubber or the blade that caused us to miss. |
Posted By: LuckyBob
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 1:11pm
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My preference is for the Nittaku. All of the others have or have had drastic quality-control issues in my experience. The first option is an invalid option in my opinion. The quality of ball on the World Tour is much greater than any other ball. The worst DHS ball on the World Tour is better than the best Nittaku an average player could find. I have my doubts that any tournament outside of the World Tour could get a supply of those balls. @Baal If I'm not mistaken, most of the sponsored events gets the balls for free or at a drastically reduced price. For example, a local tournament out here uses Nittaku, and has for decades. I don't believe they're free, but they're cheap to the point that it's not a significant figure in their costs. |
Posted By: PingPongPom
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 3:30pm
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The Nittaku is probably the best quality ball on the market, when you get to a major competition you want a ball that is reliable and that you know will allow you to perform. The issue here is really only with the price of buying Nittaku balls for practice rather than USATT ensuring the best quality conditions for their main events of the year, so in that sense I don't believe there should be a change. ------------- http://mhtabletennis.com |
Posted By: book4all
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 4:16pm
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However good the other brand of balls are, they will have different playing characteristics. If the tournament requires NP40+, then people would like to use NP40+ in training. That is the reason of the cost going up. I wish USATT have no role in deciding the balls used in the tournament. Why do they have to? They do not decide which brand of rubbers and blades, are they?
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 5:45pm
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Actually they don't decide except in the US Open, Nationals, Team trials etc. which are events that they actually organize (as opposed to just sanctioning). Otherwise in sanctioned USATT events the organizers can choose any ball as long as it is on the ITTF approved list. They have to say what ball will be used on the entry form. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 6:02pm
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Does anyone know the balls used for the top 8 pro leagues in the world ? Is the Nittaku Premium 40+ used for any of them ? https://www.thoughtco.com/the-worlds-top-table-tennis-leagues-3173391" rel="nofollow - Top 8 Pro leagues ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 7:22pm
In the German Bundesliga the clubs get to decide which balls and table they want to use. You can see here what the different teams are using and some do use the Nittaku ball: https://ttvn.click-tt.de/cgi-bin/WebObjects/nuLigaDokumentTTDE.woa/wa/nuDokument?dokument=TeamMaterialsFOP&group=302268" rel="nofollow - Materialliste ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 7:27pm
Slight correction here, the ball has to be USATT approved. The Gambler ball is NOT on the ITTF approved list but it is USATT approved hence it can be used in a USATT event. We did actually use it for one tournament because the ball is cheap and decent but then moved away from it because the tournaments became sponsored by Paddle Palace and they provided Nittaku balls. ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 7:29pm
So 3 of 10 clubs use Nittaku sd 40+ I assume that is the Sha ball made in China ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 7:33pm
Seems to be this one: http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/nittaku-sd-40-3-ittf-3pcs-seam" rel="nofollow - Nittaku SD 40+ Edit: just looked it up and that is not he SHA ball ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:36pm
The side of the ball box says made in China. http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/nittaku-sd-40-3-ittf-3pcs-seam" rel="nofollow - SD 40+ made in China ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:38pm
Yes I saw that it is made in China but it seems to be a new ball and they also offer the SHA which is different. ------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:51pm
The cost of the SD 40+ is $1.27 each half of NP 40+ made in Japan and cheaper than the $2 Sha ball. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:55pm
Why don't you order some and tell us how they play!  They seem to be good enough for the Bundesliga.------------- OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 9:01pm
Then they should be another better economical choice for the USA tournaments and the players who have to use them for training. Why even test them if they have Bundesliga credibility ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 10:13pm
Bear in mind that Nittaku has always had some 3* balls made for them by DHS in China, even back in the celluloid era, so almost certainly these are rebranded D40+ balls. I haven't tried any yet but I would anticipate that they are pretty good. |
Posted By: SmileTT
Date Posted: 09/30/2017 at 9:21am
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Not a lot of people have experience with the Joola flash. Also a good ball, better than XSF. ------------- Xiom Omega IV Euro | Freitas ALC | Xiom Omega IV Euro https://tinyurl.com/yaoh8suu" rel="nofollow - Feedbacks |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 4:23am
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In my opinion, the USA tournaments should use whatever ball is used on the world professional tour. They shouldn't force the USA players to practice with the most expensive ball costing $2.50 - 3.00 per ball, ridiculous. The Nittaku Premium 40+ is mostly only used in Japan. Presently the poll majority supports the DHS D40+ which is used on the world professional tour. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 10:53am
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The Asian TTC used Nittaku this year. WTTC used D40. Variou professional leagues around the world use other balls. Presently USATT does NOT dictate to organizers what ball they should use so your poll is misleading. I like the D40 but facts should be presesnted correctly. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 11:21am
Go back and read the starting poll Question: "Should the USATT switch their ball choice from Nittaku Premium 40+ to another brand for the US Open and US Nationals ?" The facts are stated correctly and the poll is not misleading. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 12:57pm
I think the USATT should use whatever ball the ball sponsor pays them to use, as long as it's a quality ball. A month before a major tournament a participant can buy 3 expensive balls and practice with them before the tournament. It's not that big of a deal. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 1:44pm
We have different opinions. Since the USA big tournaments use the NP 40+, they appear to set an example that a lot of clubs and other tournaments follow. We have 2 clubs in my area which use the the NP 40+ and the club I go to which uses the DHS D40+. A new ball last around 6 hours before the new liveliness wears off so it can be expensive to play simulated tournament matches with a new ball. I always play matches 6 hours before I change new balls, so presently costing me $.55 for 2 x a week vs $2.50 a week for a Nittaku Premium 40+. I like to use the money I save on balls for TT replacement rubber. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 3:25pm
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Our new balls last much longer than 6 hours. I've never checked how long our balls last, but I'm guessing that they last 30+ hours. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 5:06pm
| The other thing is that if you practice with D40 the switch to NP40 is pretty easy. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 6:20pm
WTTC actually used Nittaku. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 7:11pm
From my experience, one club using NP 40+, say a ball new vs one used well over 6 hours, the service return is much easier with the used ball. I have always enjoyed bringing out a new ball to play vs players who practice with well used balls. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 10:29pm
You are right. I was there and should have remembered properly. The point was that not all ITTF events use D40. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 10:32pm
| In any case before long we will mostly be using ABS balls made by DHS or Nittaku in US tournaments even if they have other labels. Eithe one is fine with me. |
Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 10:41pm
Do you think it will really happen, given a large number of tournaments/clubs sponsored by Butterfly and Joola in the US? I suspect sponsorship plays a major role here. Edit: I guess you are assuming that Butterfly, Joola, and other major companies will start offering ABS ball variant soon. Perhaps, we'll see.
------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/01/2017 at 11:17pm
| I think everyone who has been selling rebranded DHS cellulose acetate balls, including Joola and possibly Btfly (although Btfly may have been selling a DF ball) will before lomg sell rebranded DHS (or DF) ABS balls. They also know the cellulose acetate balls are bad but they didn't have a lot of options before. Joola eventually sold a seamless ball, and Btfly has their own G40 that is IMHO pretty disappointing. But as you say, we'll see. A lot of these companies had previous agreements with DHS so why not again in the future? |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 9:46am
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Summary of thread info to date Nittaku Premium 40+ made in Japan, was used in the Asian TT Championships and the World TT Championships but not in any of the top world professional leagues or the world professional tour for 2017. Then I think the USA should rotate the balls used yearly for the US Open and the US Nationals. Does anyone know what balls will be used for the men's and women's world cups this year ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 10:21am
============= Don't know about this year. Last year both of them used: DHS 40+ *** Most likely, they will use the same ball this year. (They have not announced it yet.) ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 12:50pm
So the Open and Nationals would use a different ball every year. That means that ball sensitive players would also have to buy different balls for each tournament. Would you be willing to make up the sponsorship money lost due to the changes? |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 2:49pm
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Again, this discussion is not taking into account whatever sponsorship agreements USATT may have to reduce their costs. Since the DHS and Nittaku balls are not all that different, really USATT's costs should be the deciding factor. We know that Nittaku balls are a lot more expensive for us but we don't know what kind of deal USATT may be getting. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 2:56pm
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I'm pretty sure any ball sponsorship is going to start with free balls. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 3:05pm
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I agree, I don't think the cost of the balls is an issue. Sponsorship money would be important. I also would like consistency. I suspect that the NP has a multi year agreement. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 5:09pm
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This is abit off topic but I’ve been playing with the new Joola Flash 40+ ball since my practice partner is getting ready for the Baltimore event on thanksgiving, and this ball is not bad. Plays much better than the XSF ball in terms of consistency and bounce. Seems more durable as well. Didn’t check the roundness but I didn’t see any wobble during play. And then I went to check the price of this ball and it’s about 2.50/per ball... still expensive but cheaper than NP40+ which is still #1 IMO. Has anyone recently practiced with this ball? Any thoughts? ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 6:57pm
Clarification, USATT should use the same ball for both tournaments in the same year, Nittaku Premium 40+ for 2017. I think they should use a different ball for 2018 tournaments, say the same ball to be used on the world tour for 2018. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 7:06pm
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(LUCKYLOOP) In my opinion, the USA tournaments should use whatever ball is used on
the world professional tour. They shouldn't force the USA players to
practice with the most expensive ball costing $2.50 - 3.00 per ball,
ridiculous. Yeah it is. Tennis anyone? Tennis Warehouse sells 3 ball cans of Penn, Dunlop and Wilson, all of which are perfectly acceptable for mortals and pros alike, for around $3.99 a can. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 7:12pm
The USATT mission is to develop the National team for international competition. Then wouldn't it be appropriate to use a ball that their teams are most likely to encounter during the year. I don't think Nittaku should even be considered if they are not going to a competition that will be using it for a specific year. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/03/2017 at 8:28pm
I would rather have the ball sponsorship money used to train our players to be competitive. I can't imagine that the ball we use for the Nationals and the Open would make much difference at the international level. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 1:08am
| Seriously, you can adjust between d40 and np40 in about one or two minutes. In the worst possible case, a day of training is enough. This is a non-issue. The only issue is cost. And that depends on what usatt pays, if anything. But if USATT did switch to d40 because they got a new sponsor I would be ok with it. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 2:09am
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Question What is the retail profit generated by a ball selling for $2.50 -$3 per ball vs a ball that sells for half the cost or less ? What is the profit generated by the manufacturer too ? In essence, are USA players being fleeced by Nittaku sponsorship at the 2 tournaments ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 3:34am
I think one can very quickly adjust to any ball with a consistent bounce and roundness that stays that way. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 11:01am
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Now this I don't understand. If Nittaku donates balls to USATT for the two tournaments USATT organizes, somehow US players are getting fleeced as a result of Nittaku's generosity? You can train with D40+ and if you are really concerned you could play with Nittaku for a day or two before the event and be fine. Like I said, I like D40 balls, but in terms of quality control in general you get what you pay for. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 11:36am
WHAT IF it has generated an average of 10,000 or more ball sales per month in the USA ? Edit Addition Getting what you pay for: Average hourly factory wage Japan $7.30 China $2.00 usually do not get paid extra for overtime ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 11:45am
Why would anyone care how many balls were sold each month in the USA? It's my choice whether I buy the balls or not. I buy 3 NP's before the Nationals and the Open. Somehow buying those balls don't make me feel fleeced by Nitakau. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 11:58am
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So what? People should simply buy D40s for practice if they are concerned about the price of the ball. It is the ball I use about 80% of the time. But bear in mind that the Nittaku is a very high quality ball. It has the best playing properties of plastic balls (not 100% of people agree, but they would get more votes than any other ball). So a lot of people are buying Nittaku who will never go to US Open or Nationals. So it might be hard to claim that any particular sales figure they have is directly caused by their sponsorship of these events. If Nittaku does get a sales bump from sponsoring these events, well that is the reason all manufacturers sponsor events. And it makes the events better. All in all, this is some pretty crazy reasoning. I don't think we should criticize a company that donates balls to our national events, especially when a lot of people would say it is the best 40+ ball in existence. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 12:00pm
I have an apartment in China. It costs about 1/10th of what it would cost in Japan (maybe 1/20th if we are talking about central Tokyo), as with a meal at a restaurant, a ride in a taxi etc. Part of the reason stuff from China costs less. Another reason is the QC. How stringent are your standards? What are you willing to put in the box? The fewer you throw away, the less you have to charge. Nittaku has really high QC standards, for a long time now. Anyway, over in Pongville feel free to use whatever you want. I suggest D40. It won't hurt you training for events where they use Nittaku. |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 12:41pm
DHS balls will be used at the Mens and Womens World Cup. It's on the ITTF page for those events. The balls for the Teams has not been announced yet. ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 1:27pm
I am not criticizing their Company. Actually it is very astute marketing strategy to generate USA sales. I am educating players about the balls used all over the world and the overpricing of the NP 40+ due to wage factors beyond their control. By getting the NP40+ in the two most prestigious USATT Tournaments Nittaku gets a name Brand Reputation and Recognition at a very inexpensive advertising cost. A lot of consumers are duped by price on different products thinking the most expensive is better, which is not always correct. It is usually the indicator of a better product. It can depend on countries standard of living. Why are a lot products not made in the USA anymore ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 2:18pm
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My personal preference starts with is it round, not the brand. I usually still manage to get a couple of matches in with the Bfly ball each week. It takes longer for me to make the adjustment, so if you play me you get a automatic spot if we are using the Bfly ball. I just treat it like a handicap match and make it a challenge for myself. I even will play with an old cell ball if nothing else is available. (I'm still using them in my robot.) We have some people who really seem to like one particular Brand over the others. Hey if they want to supply a NP40+ ball I'm fine with that, I will add that even their 2* ball seems to be a good quality ball, from my experience. Me, I'm probably only interested in one or the other when I'm getting ready to go to a tournament, like the Joola ball for instance. Or last year the Bfly. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 4:58pm
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Baal wrote So a lot of people are buying Nittaku who will never go to US Open or Nationals. So it might be hard to claim that any particular sales figure they have is directly caused by their sponsorship of these events. When I started to play in clubs, the ball of choice used was the Nittaku Premium. I hadn't played in the US Open or the Nationals. I have played in several clubs in various states in the past. All used the Nittaku Premium. The majority of the club players never have played in those tournaments. The ball used at those clubs was determined by the persons running them, which some have attended the big 2 tournaments. So yes the Nittaku Ball advertising has affected usage by players a lot who have never playing in the US Open or Nationals. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 8:13pm
| Advertising or the quality of the product? It has been the ball of choice in the US for decades. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 8:37pm
Probably both, I knew very little about the other balls back then. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 9:06pm
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It is word of mouth mostly. Also people try the balls and they like it. If they made a crappy ball at that price nobody would buy it. My sense is that very little TT advertising is very effective. But yes, even in 38 mm era people in US generally preferred Nittaku to other balls, and they were always the most expensive. Now the D40+ is a more or less acceptable alternative and a lot cheaper. DHS made a decent ball in the celluloid era too, including some sold with a Nittaku label. |
Posted By: Vince64
Date Posted: 10/04/2017 at 10:52pm
------------- ustabletennisresults.com https://www.facebook.com/groups/408008237063185 |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 9:18am
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Summary Only 35 participants in the poll I feel we have learned a lot from this thread. The Nittaku Premium 40+ appears to be overpriced based on manufacturing cost labor conditions of Japan compared to China. The NP 40+ made in Japan is not used on the World Pro Tour or any of the 8 top ranked professional leagues of the World. Therefore, based on usage by the professionals, there are other quality balls available that could be used in the US Open and US Nationals and even smaller independently sanctioned US Tournaments. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 9:44am
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For USATT to use another brand, that manufacturer needs to provide a better sponsor package than Nittaku. I don't think USATT selected Nittaku just because they supply free balls. And they won't select another brand just because that brand is used elsewhere or that brand is cheaper or whatever. It comes down to whoever gives USATT the best package, period. ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 10:06am
Then, based on marketing strategy, Nittaku is targeting the USA while DHS is targeting the World Professional Tour. Maybe Nittaku considers the USA an easier MARK for their expensive balls than other parts of the world. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 11:17am
You really don't know how sponsorship works, do you? ------------- Gewo Aruna Hinoki Carbon Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 53 SuperSelect Yinhe Qing |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 11:23am
It's really PAddle Palace since in a sense, they are Nittaku USA. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 11:38am
My statement above was based on the premise of usage by professionals. See my other statement based on the premise of marketing strategy. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 12:23pm
I think he just has a lot of free time and likes to start never ending useless threads. |
Posted By: Vince64
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 12:36pm
I think he just has a lot of free time and likes to start never ending useless threads. A sanctioned tournament can use whatever ball they choose to as long as it’s ITTF and USATT approved. There is no secret ball police traveling around the country taking club and tournament directors into a dark room telling them to use Ball A, B, or C. I’m not really sure why it would even matter to you since you have stated previously that you are in favor of playing non competitive matches where winning and losing isn’t relevant anyway. ------------- ustabletennisresults.com https://www.facebook.com/groups/408008237063185 |
Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 12:53pm
I gave up on trying to find rationale behind posts of some prolific forum participants. They exist in every forum and sometimes it's best to just ignore some of the posts and posters - changing someone's mind is next to impossible in my experience. ------------- USATT: ~1810 Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 12:55pm
My premises with statements are based on factual data while you are making unsubstantiated statements to support your arguments. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 2:55pm
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The United Kingdom has a similar standard of living and english speaking compared to the USA. The UK has about 26,000+ members compared to 8,000 for the USA. What brands of ball do they use in their league system ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/07/2017 at 9:03pm
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For league matches at the club level what I have been told is that is determined by the local club, I'm not up to date on what's used after that. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/08/2017 at 4:52pm
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Rural USA 2017 Newgy and Wang Vision Institute Open Franklin, Tennessee 2 Star event OCT. 14 - 15, 2017 Ball: Nittaku Premium 40+ 2017 Santa Fe Open Santa Fe NM 2 Star event October 21 & 22, 2017 Ball: Nittaku Premium 40+ ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: gosm92
Date Posted: 10/08/2017 at 5:40pm
| i tried joola flash,so far the best ball,round,doesn't brake often,not as hard as other,good bounce |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 12:34am
Will be used at the World Veteran Championships June 2018 Present Cost $2.49 each at Megaspin.net Seamless Ball http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79060&title=ball-review-joola-flash-p" rel="nofollow - Review ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:28am
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And South Bend tournament in Indiana is using the G40+, so is the Vernon Hills Giant RR. Knoxville used the Gambler ball in their last tournament I think. and Aurora IL is using 40 mm white 3-star
PLASTIC XuShaofa balls in their tournament. There are others I saw using the Nittaku also. My perspective: The point being that no one decides what ball each tournament is going to use except for the Tournament Organizers and their sponsors. If that tournament is able to secure balls at a reasonable cost (or free) from a sponsor, they wind us evening out the cost for acquiring the balls. In other cases a tournament will use whatever brand is popular locally with their players. If the majority of players in a certain local choose Nittaku or Butterfly, then that is probably what the tournament is going to use. They will just make up the cost in the entry fee, or through sponsorship. If the people running the tournament are pinching pennies, they will use whichever ball they can get the cheapest. This is probably more true for local events, than for events trying to pull players from a larger area. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:32am
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One other note, the cost of the balls used in tournaments pales in comparison to the cost for the venue to hold the tournament, at least if you have to rent somewhere large enough to hold the event. This is especially true for large events, like Joola's or Butterfly team events, or the Nationals/Open. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:52am
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So far Nittaku is the best ball I've tried, so if I were to vote (and I didn't because I'm no national player) I would vote to stay with. I certainly play the best with them personally. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 9:48am
But if a manufacturer is providing additional forms of sponsorship, the least you can do is use their balls. |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:03am
Yep, I agree. And just like all the rule changes we have gone thru in this sport, change for change sake is not always a good/wise thing to do. Even at a $1 per ball difference (which I doubt it is for large sponsored tournaments), the cost is nothing compared to the cost of the venue. If lucky's real issue/complaint is that people at his club expect you to use/supply them with expensive balls since that is what they think is "the best", and what will be used in major tournaments. That is another matter, it has to be addressed locally. It is akin to peer pressure. If someone is wearing brand 1 then everyone wants to wear brand 1. This I can sympathize with, but it is a separate thing than what should be used at the Nationals/Open. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 7:34pm
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FYI the US economy is the largest in the world but the USATT membership is one of the lowest for tt associations for countries half the size of the US or even much smaller. The USA probably has well over 100,000 fairly serious hobby type club players. The Nittaku Ball is well established in clubs across the USA. The quality of the ball is not disputed only the Price to the consumer or regular club or recreation center participants. What is the mission of the USATT ? Is it best served by allowing Nittaku to supply free balls for the US Open & Nationals every year ? The World championships, Asian championships, don't use the same brand of ball every year. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 8:38pm
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Oh, now I get it. So this is another I hate Butterfly, or in this case Nittaku, because "The price for their product is just too high in MY opinion" threads. Got you, moving on now, nothing to see here. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 8:39pm
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It's time you let this thread die. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 11:31pm
How many of these unicorns actually exist in 2017? i enjoy the NP40 AND D40+ balls. is it because they don't dent? ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 10:33am
mts388 said It's time you let this thread die. Let's not be bitter with personal attacks, I just use the facts !! I am not trying to embarrass you if you appear to be an easy Mark for Nittaku balls if more money than brains. The Joola Flash 40+ *** is the ball of choice in England for 2017-18. https://tabletennisengland.co.uk/news/archived/ball-supplier-announced-for-201718-events/" rel="nofollow - Link ....... ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/15/2017 at 11:26pm
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The Stiga 40+ is used by 2 clubs in the German Bundesliga League. Where can you buy it ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 10/18/2017 at 1:47pm
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I prefer the Nittaku Premium.. It's also the thinnest of all the plastic balls, measuring barely above 40 mm while some of the seamless balls are like 40.30 mm... Smaller size = more spin.. ------------- 2010 Florida State Champion Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/18/2017 at 2:14pm
That might be true when they are new, but as they age, as slick as they become, I suspect they have less spin than the seamless balls. We have a lot of them running around our club that are so shinny, they would have been discarded in the 38 mm days. Of course at the price they charge they are still in use now. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 10/18/2017 at 2:17pm
Agreed.. The Nittaku Premium get very slick when they are used a lot, resulting in less spin.. However, a brand new Nittaku Premium 40+ seems to have more spin than any other 40+ ball when new. ------------- 2010 Florida State Champion Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/18/2017 at 2:28pm
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Have you tried the new DHS D40+? I'm wondering from a pips perspective how it fares compared to the NP 40+? ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 10/18/2017 at 2:30pm
I have played it once or twice.. Seemed similar to some of the other seamless balls to me.. Didn't notice any major difference.. From the Seamless ones, I actualy like the Xushaofa the best. JOOLA ball is pretty decent too but I'm getting the best results with new Nittaku Premium 40+..
------------- 2010 Florida State Champion Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |