not significantly tbh

I'm very in shape and slender and beat this 130kg 6'2 bodybuilding freak with ease and he's played longer than me. He has a weak stroke due to being too heavy to turn and cannot pivot at all, makes it easy.

In other words, the hypothesised benefits have been nullified and more than physical limits from being more muscular

That said, does heavy weight lifting really help in table tennis? Probably not a whole lot. But it certainly won't hurt your game either! 

And to smackdat about the 130kg player, it really depends on how well they utilize their muscle mass. You can be muscular without being athletic. Being OVERLY muscular doesn't help in athletic pursuits, but again... it would take YEARS with extremely dedicated effort to ever reach such a state. 

lineup32 wrote: .........My next add to the workout will be a gradual build on jumping rope as a warm up.

Yes. This is one area (plus ladder workouts) I'd love to get good at. I think it's very important, perhaps more than weight trg, when one is >60yo.

There is a BIG difference between performing a properly designed strength and conditioning program designed to increase your performance for a given sport, and trying to become a top bodybuilder or powerlifter. As obesechopper mentioned, you're not going to accidentally become "too big" or "too strong." It takes a LOT of hard work to build up to high levels of strength and musculature. 

The fact that table tennis doesn't require a high degree of absolute strength (like football does, for example) is beside the point. Resistance training does a lot more than just make you strong! There's a cascade of unique health benefits that comes along with resistance training:

One of the most under-rated ones, in my opinion, is the beneficial effects on injury prevention and longevity. It's not just the muscles that get stronger, your bones and connective tissues also benefit! In strengthening these passive structures (along with the muscles designed to support and protect them), you become a more resilient and injury-resistant table tennis machine 

Couldn't have said it better myself!

In general, I agree that weight training isn't going to give some super advantage in TT.  Most elite players are rather thin.  The extra muscle mass will provide extra strength and power, but although a quick motion is advantageous in TT, you are only moving 200g-ish when you swing, so you don't need a lot of power really... just some neural activation that needs to be fine-tuned.  Power training could help a little here, but strength training will do very little.  

That said, do I think power training would help you specifically?  Absolutely.  Like myself, you're a big dude.  The extra mass from muscle will only help enable quick motions, especially with movement.  A lot of people think extra muscle mass makes you slower, but this is a myth.  Ever see the legs on sprinters?  Extra muscle mass will affect endurance, but unless you're really thin in the first place, this isn't really an issue.  

I say keep with the weights.  The only advice I'd give is to do more power-style training instead of strength training (it's also way more fun!)... The fact that you plan to compete probably means that's already what you're at.    Heavier weights, less reps, concentrate on the concentric motion and forget the eccentric motion.  Squats, deads and lunges are probably where the magic will happen.  Weights don't just build muscle.  Power motions strengthen the neuro-muscular connection, meaning you can activate the same size muscle to contract harder.  Bodybuilders are often outlifted by powerlifters half their size.  

I think you're doing awesome.  I say keep it up and let us know how it affects your game.  Also, what numbers are you hoping to put up at your next powerlifting meet?

Indeed it was 315. I plan to only do raw events. I don't even have wrist wraps, but I plan to get a pair as I found out they may be used in raw benching. I found a gym where powerlifters train. They also have good coaches and I've started attending a group class. One coach told me I was gripping the bar too loosely on the deadlift, another told me my weight was going forward too much when I came up on the squat. My TT habits influenced my softer grip and weight shift from heel to toe. I'm not used to a coach telling a student to grip tighter and stay on the heels.

I thought I could enter a meet within a couple of months, but I'm learning that there's so much I need to learn. I doubt I'll do a meet before next year and I have no idea how much I can squat or deadlift. I also found out that one doesn't have to compete in all 3 lifts, so that's something to keep in mind. My goal now is a 500 kg total, but I may find out later that's either too light or too heavy.
 

Having good coaches and training partners is everything for putting up the big numbers.  The lifts look like such simple movements, but there's actually a lot of technique involved.  You've got a nice back arch for bench, and it looks like you're keeping it legal, so you should do very well on this lift in competition.  

Almost everyone is quad-dominant for deads and squats.  This is especially true for people who play sports where you spend a lot of time on your toes.  We come forward so we can get our quads into the lift more, but the muscles with the most potential (hams and gluts) activate when we push with our heels.  One thing that might help is incorporating more lunges/hamstring curls into the routine, or even pre-exhausting the quads with a few leg extensions before squatting.  A lot of powerlifting programs have you do a bunch of squats, then a bunch of bench, then another bunch of squats.  Maybe throwing some leg extensions in before the second set of squats could help.  If your quads are tired, you'll have no choice but to push with your hams/gluts.  

Doing 1RMs for squats and deads is always a scary day, and not something to do often haha.  It's always a guess until the competition.  500kg is a very big goal, and you could very well get it, but remember that for your first competition, joining the 1000lb club is a huge step in itself.  You should hit that no problem with that bench.  

You should post progress videos as you train, like the one you posted with TT and powerlifting side by side.  I think it will be cool to see how one influences the other.  Oh, and compete in all three lifts.  You're already there, go for it!  

Just take it easy and ease into things. Don't rush it. You don't need to hit failure to build strength. It's a good idea to have a speed/technique day in there where you get plenty of practice on form with submaximal loads.

Something like super clean and snappy sets of 3 with ~70-75% 1RM are good for this.

One more note...

While utilizing resistance training for general strength and conditioning has a pretty low injury risk, attempting to become a competitive powerlifter changes things...

If that is your goal, you have now entered the realm of needing to accept some risk for the reward.

To put things in perspective a bit, a study came out this year which sampled around 100 Swedish powerlifters. They found that 87% had been injured in the past year alone!

I'd highly suggest getting some good coaching and making sure you're following a properly periodized strength-focused routine. Shoot me a PM if you want me to point you to some free resources on this.

You're training with coaches and powerlifters, so that will help you a lot.  Back when I was at it, we all followed Sheiko programs.  Kev will probably have more advice here, but if a program has you going to 80% on multiple lifts of the same type (i.e. deads) in the same day, you're probably gunning for an injury.  My first program was the CMS-MS Prep and I liked this one a lot.  The workouts are a bit long, though.  

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vBdL47glReiNALmFw1_ieRg6nMYaJ5OFlmidJ9nUNNM/edit#gid=779444565

In this spreadsheet, go to the tab called "CMS-MS Prep" to see what each day consists of.  If nothing else, it will give you an idea of how heavy and how many reps.  Training for powerlifting isn't all 1RMs, nor is it all heavy sets of 3.  

Kev is certainly a better resource than me for anything program-related, but if there's anything you want to know about diet or supplements, I can certainly help there.  

When it comes down to it, you're in the gym and putting in the work.  No matter what, you will improve.  You've got a pretty mean bench press right now, so you will get to some impressive numbers there for sure.  

Note that I have squatted over 400lbs, but that was 30 years ago. Back then I used to bring a belt and knee wraps to the gym all the time so this isn't a totally new thing for me - I just never did a meet. I was totally sold during my first TT tournament that THIS is what I want to do and the lifting faded (not totally, I've been off and on for approx 30 years)

Table tennis is based on skill, not brute force.

Opinions from trainers should be taken with a grain of salt here. Their livelihood depends on people thinking the services are indispensable so of course they would think weight training is no problem with TT.

Now, my opinion is that huge upper body muscles are a burden, not because of the weight of the extra muscle, but because of the huge masses that can impair quick mobility. Im talking upperbody, not legs. Brian Pace has huge legs and I don't think this becomes much of a problem at all. 

I do wish I was in better shape though. Lean body type is perhaps the best for TT. The swimmers body type.

anyway, my 2 cents.

FdT

That said, I also think it's wrong to discredit those who do make a living in the fitness industry.  Having bias does not discredit the knowledge they have acquired.  It's like ignoring someone who tells you there's something wrong with your car just because they are a mechanic... who is precisely the dude who should know what's wrong with your car.  

The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.

Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?

Again, to gain any kind of appreciable mass like a real bodybuilder... would take tons of effort and dedication. You do not accidentally turn into the hulk overnight! 

I've seen plenty of FAT people playing at higher levels, over 2000 (with almost as many pounds as rating points!). And fat is even more useless than excess muscle... lol 

If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! Those guys try to stay within the lowest weight category they can, so excess weight is minimized. Is that kind of lifting necessary for tt? Of course not! But to say their gained attributes from lifting would be detrimental to tt seems off to me. What about a pro NFL running back? Olympic sprinter? 

Even if you disagree, those are extreme examples of elite level athletes. Casuals doing the same sports reach nowhere near the same levels. Just as tt players dont reach the same level as pros. So to me those even each other out. You won't be too great at tt or at powerlifting, so one wont much bother the other. It only matters when talking about the few top % 

No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. 

How does that prove weightlifting is bad for tt, exactly? Or is it a case of someone trained to play... playing against someone who only thought they were good? 

And how did we go from comparing athleticism from lifting to skill in a particular sport? The two are not the same. 

No different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element. 

If strength and all those attributes that are enhanced by lifting are detrimental... why do the top men beat the best women? Oh right, they have higher attributes in those same areas from genetics! 

When skill levels are equal, how is it you think the stronger, faster, more powerful player would lose exactly?

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. 

it is a matter of balance, like a healthy diet.  too much of a good thing might end up being inefficient or even counter productive

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. "

Again, more inarticulate, garbled argumentation. No one defined the terms. If you are NOW talking about doing SOME, moderate weight training, then yes, I would agree there should be some benefit...Oh wait, I already did mention it before, about pros doing some weight training. Except you just conveniently ignored it or did not bother to read, unless you have bad reading comprehension....

So if we are talking some weight training (legs, core) yeah I can see some benefits. But not bulking up.

Here are some clips showing some exercises specifically designed for TT that I think are definitely appropriate and beneficial....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxrLvooHocA&index=7&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arud6iG9nX8&index=1&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP

FdT

And btw, not all bodybuilders do lift weights ;) 

High number of repetition with lower weight = strength

Lower number of repetitions with higher weights = muscle volume..

Those who work out with heavier weight will develop more muscle mass while those using lower weight and higher repetitions will develop almost identical strength but smaller muscle volume.

Werner at his peak only had something like 2 or 3 percent body fat.. 

I am interested in your statement about the plastic ball ruining your touch? Why? I still think touch is very, very important, or am I out of date on this too?

I remember this player at a San Antonio tournament who looked like he spent more time in the weight room than table tennis table, he could loop anything....

Weightlifting is a sport consisting of the snatch and clean and jerk. No bodybuilders are weight lifters pretty much, entirely different disciplines. Note the difference between weightlifting and lifting weights.

This is exactly the wrong way round. Strength is devloped more efficiently with higher weights and lower reps. Hypertrophy (size) with lower weight and higher reps. This is entirely uncontroversial in exercise science.

Also no he wasn't 2 or 3 per cent body fat. Not even close. At his absolute peak, Wang Liqin was maybe 8-9%. I think Werner was telling you porkies. Bodybuilders on competition day usually do not get to 2-3% and they are in that condition for a matter of hours only and their whole life is built around that. 

I would be pretty shocked if Werner was ever less than 10.

I used to hit with a very closed contact angle. I mostly brushed the ball to produce high spin effects. The plastic ball slips off the rubber with my former strokes so I have to open the racket face more. It's a new stroke for me - a US national champion suggested I should hit this way many years ago. Also, when an opponent makes a topspin attack and I decide to block and place, I instinctively adjust my racket angle and timing based on the previous ball and it often results in my blocking into the net. 

btw, I figured out how to get a good strength workout and play table tennis at the same time. I hope to take video tomorrow.

I challenged a mid 1700's version of Pushblocker with the added rule as follows. I do a set of push-ups before each game and the match is best of 3 (wanted to avoid the possibility of 5 sets). It caused a slight affect in game 1 and my strokes were stiffer early in game 2. By the middle of game 2, it felt normal again and I won comfortably.

I conclude that if one takes a day off from upper body lifting before important matches, he should be unaffected.

I still firmly believe proper resistance training should be a part of every table tennis players training regimen. But, as I state in the book, it shouldn't be the ONLY part. It's just one piece of the puzzle. 

Most are very weak and would benefit from any of the above due to novice gains but j agree with the rest. Apart from the power/strength comment. You have the nomenclature wrong there. It's strength but power is improved concurrently as strength is a component of power. If you train quick lifts this is slightly different as they express power.

You'll even be able to build muscle with sets sub 5 reps, it's just not as efficient (you'll have to do more sets and rest longer).

All that being said, even under the *best* conditions, muscle growth is a slow process that is easy to control, maintain, and even reduce if you feel like you've taken things too far.

Worrying about gaining too much muscle and becoming bulky is like worrying that if you read a medical textbook you might accidentally become a doctor. 

This "anorexic trend" would continue into the late 1990's.  KLH vs. LGL in the 1995 WTTC finals come to mind.  Fast forward to 2003 with the introduction of the 40mm cell and things appeared to change.  Schlager of course won and if you compare his physique from let's say 1997 WTTC to when he won in 2003, he was still skinny but had a but more on the upper body.  Kreanga was not always very skinny.  And as we moved to 2005 until 2013 before the 40mm plastic, players were definitely not skinny.  Take for example Wang Hao.  You can also compare the 1997 versions of WLQ and Ma Lin to their 2007 versions.  Definitely much more muscular.  So we can tell they are now lifting weights.

As for Heavyspin's question, go for it brother!

There is only a subtle difference apart from the weight lifted. They are both "for" exactly the same thing just depends on intensity/volume.

Mark 

Good point - can't argue with that.

During world championship 1987 in New Delhi most of the team got sick. Appelgren was to sick to compete in the singels tournament but Waldner did and managed to get to the finals where he lost to Jiang Jialiang. The analysis after the tournament came to the conclusion that Waldner had been playing the best table tennis of his life, in no small part due to the fact that he had lost 9 kg during his illness and therefore where faster and could use his forehand more.

After worlds 87 the national team started more focused weight training to be able to be faster and more explosive. They couldn't plan stomach flue before every tournament after all . Off course the documentary does not describe the training program but there is an interview from 87 or 88 where waldner is seen squating 50 kg and stating that the plan is to be able to squat the double within 6 months which isn't very impressive but at least tells us that they did weight training with the aim of getting (much) stronger.

For those interested - the documentary is avaliable on youtube with english subs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw  He starts at 3:51 mark until 5:01

Highest rating 2124, obviously he spend a ton of hours at the gym!

I never saw that one, thanks. This is my favorite Ron Joseph video from a while ago.

https://vimeo.com/49714708" rel="nofollow - https://vimeo.com/49714708

Do Ron and Renata ever play in your area? She was a SOLID player!

Yes, I'm friends with Ron and have seen Renata compete at several tournaments.

Yesss!!! When I first saw this thread, I started thinking about the "Killerspin bodybuilder guy" but I couldn't remember his name.  Thank you both for the videos.  I like Ron but I take exception to his nickname Bolo.  There is only one Bolo and that's the guy from Enter the Dragon 

USATT lists him at 1407 in 1994 and he's currently 2067.  That progress is nothing to sneeze at! Regardless of his muscles or athleticism, you need to have good TT IQ at that rating range.  It's great that he's maintained his flexibility and range of motion with that bulk.

His FH looks so similar to the unstoppable Quadri Aruna FH hahaha...

Min.34:20

I also read in Gatien's book that weight training is important.

i have yet to see a compound lift video by a top pro that really blows me away. they all appear to be doing low weight high reps. However there are some pros (not in the top 20) that do have really nice bodies (although they don't post training videos)

Same here, though I'm working to change that!

Obviously nobody is going to be participating in powerlifting meets anytime soon, but NBA point guards often weigh ~200 and can deadlift 400, which I could possibly see ZJK doing. However, Dima and his lunges with 20 pound dumbbells (not to pick on him, but I feel like I've seen videos of him doing this and his body doesn't look that strong to me) is almost certainly not able to lift heavy.

Zjk and explosive tt Players might have an advantage because their style is heavily dependent on strong legs, but Zjk doesn’t weigh close to 200 pounds (154 according to google). Generally TT players just have a weird built for weightlifting. There are so many muscle imbalances from training specifically for TT. Strong and big legs (at least some Europeans and a lot of Chinese), strong stable core, imbalances between the right and left body half when it comes to arms and the back, and also very tight muscles around the pectoral area.