I found the image below which has the best illustration. It is NOT a wrist movement (which is a completely separate discussion topic in itself), rather it comes from the arm and shoulder. 

Do you have a vid showing this?

Yes you do it for the BH loop, and chiquita. Pretty much everyone at the highest levels does it, however it may not be acknowledged in literature. I'm pretty sure many high level players of this forum do it too, either consciously or unconsciously. You kinda start from the middle position in the diagram shown and move towards the extreme ends. Some people call it a wrist snap but it's a misnomer because the wrist movement is mainly radial/ulnar deviation, this is more of a forearm action. 

It's not a very visible component of the stroke since there is little visual impact other than the position of the wrist at the end of the followthrough vs the beginning that gives it away. I will record some short videos when I have time to show this...

Btw for the backhand if you look closely at the contact they don't contact the ball with a very closed angle, it's more open like 45 degrees, the reason why it is closed at the end is because of supination which acts to close the racket angle.

Btw for the backhand if you look closely at the contact they don't contact the ball with a very closed angle, it's more open like 45 degrees...

I wouldn't say it happens after contact but rather during contact... The effects continue in the followthrough which is when you see it. My experience is that without the supination you can still have a spinny brush loop BH. But when you add in the supination, it becomes a lot more explosive. I have some screenshots from Harimoto training video and a Tomorrow table tennis tutorial video which shows it very clearly.

There are only 19 Tomorrow TT videos. Is it the one titled: 

Loop Like Zhang Jike - Explosive Backhand?

Yes that's the one, he doesn't explain it but his video shows it very clearly...

Look at the section from 1:44 very carefully, you'll notice the supination very clearly, see how his forearm is rotating about the axis of the forearm itself, and there is a corresponding closing of the blade angle. He calls it "whipping forward", but biomechanically speaking it's a combination of wrist movement along the radial/ulnar deviation plane, and supination. 

I'm attaching a common wrist movement image to define the terms I'm using correctly. 

The other thing that's possibly a bit confusing/misleading about the BH racket angles is "unarching" of the back opens up the blade angle which is why the angle looks very closed during the backswing. So you gotta ignore the part before that, during contact (as you can see from the video above) the blade contacts the ball quite head on rather than a thin brush loop, then you're closing the bat angle actively using supination during the "snap forward". 

One of the key cues is that at the followthrough, if you're using the full stroke the blade, wrist and arm form a straight line. It's kinda the opposite of the FH where you start off straight and end up curled, with BH you start curled and end up straight. 

If your goal is to spin the ball it clearly does.

Yeah agreed, I don't see why it wouldn't work with any rubber, it's just biomechanics after all...

High level. Players don't think this way and I wouldn't recommend you look for too much theoretical advice from high level players. High level coaches is s different story but you don't see that many on here.

What you are saying is obviously correct (I can't confirm every detail but the general idea of rotation around the axis of the shoulder/upper arm/forearm) is something that I have always noticed and it is something I focus on when teaching looping.  But I don't teach it by emphasizing it usually. I just shish people how to start and finish the stroke and where to hit the ball in between and it tends to add up to the same thing.

I stress circular strokes when spinning the ball.  This is one easy way to add circular motion to your stroke.  It isn't everything as elbow position and the use of the body to add force to the motion are important.  But I think in terms of spin generation, it is very critical.

If yes, then does this create consistancy issues if a players timing is not high level?  If so, is this supination technique something you teach early on to beginners or is it something added later after the more basic stroke is learned fairly well?

Mark - Questioning minds want to know

Or does it go from closed to open then back to closed? Or am I missing it completely?

Is anyone willing to make a video of them shadowstroking this? With emphasis on how supination is added?

As NextLevel said, its more of a rounded circular motion. A quick snap, something like the motion you make when throwing a frisbee. 

Yes I think the Frisbee analogy is a good one as long as your elbow is used as a pivot. And yeah, I think it's subtle (at least for me it is), because as I posted in your WRM thread, I did not even realize I was rolling the forearm until I slowed the stroke down to observe it!

Whats a high level player? When I was around 1100, I thought 1500 level guys were really good. When I got to 1500, I thought man, those 1800-1900 level guys are really good. Now that I'm around 2000ish playing level, 2200-2300 seems pretty good and 2400-2500 and higher feels like a truly high level player(I have no chance lol).  

I think one has to be good at counterhitting first before adding this in...as NextLevel mentioned the elbow position, body rotation, use of legs are more important issues... But once the counterhitting is solid, this will create an order of magnitude increase in the spin and explosiveness imo.

The bat angle goes from closed during backswing to open as you unarch  (straighten) your back (even if you are not doing anything on the bat) which is the confusing part. During contact it should be relatively open, then during the followthrough if you're doing the supination correctly it should be closed. Let me make a video of a shadow stroke later today to illustrate.  

It is very subtle but very important! For me I have always supinated a bit, but not being aware of its potential I never treated it with the amount of respect it deserves, and I kept thinking I needed to move my forearm faster or to use more waist or legs, etc.... But once I was aware of it I could time the impact, use a fuller supination movement, and there was almost a magnitude increase in the power and explosiveness of my BH, I would say that without proper supination you won't be able to loopkill effortlessly. Suddenly I had full confidence in applying as much power I wanted from the legs and body rotation I wanted without any fear of missing.

If you played badminton or tennis, the pronation for FH and supination for BH is taught explicitly and given attention as one of the primary power sources in strokes...

Haha you've got a point there.... oh well for me I think will be above 2000 is a good player  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM

It would be great if someone could translate that from German, but anyway images are clearly enough to show the concept.

My question is, doesn't this technique mean a significative loss in spin (in favour of more flatter power)?

Yes, please! My backhand is horrendous at the moment, and everyone is different, so maybe this is the magic sauce that helps me just 'get it' 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be

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Hi Makele, actually if anything the supination will greatly increase the amount of spin you produce. There's a wrong way to do it where your wrist primarily goes from flexion to extension, that will kill off spin but is effective for flat hits. Instead your wrist should move along the radial/ulnar deviation plane, and you add in supination, that's when you get max spin. 

It is exactly the same for FH loop except the direction is reversed. For FH you pronate and wrist moves along the radial/ulnar deviation plane for max spin.

Try this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be

This supination thread has really gotten me thinking in a completely different way, so thank you blahness for bringing it up.

BH:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h

FH:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 

Yes.... I've also added a slight pronation action to my BH push and it resulted in a significant increase in spin too! If you time it well it can be a very small movement, and you can adjust the pronation timing to create a fake push (push with no spin!)

For me somehow the understanding of pronation and supination has helped me time it much better. In general you always want solid contact, so in my mind it's always very important to achieve solid contact before pronating/supination through the ball. 

blahness wrote: Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps! BH: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h FH: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o

Thank you! You separated them very nicely. Very easy to see. I'm still not a huge fan of the forehand one, but the backhand one just looks and feels right. Maybe in time haha. I watched a Chinese Stiga video last night and the lady in the video did have like a supination like movement as she tightened her grip during contact. It doesn't look as obvious as the backhand when she's hitting the ball, but when she was demonstrating slowly, she mentioned it.

Thank you. I'm going to have to meditate on it a little more. I feel like I'm getting there with the forehand too, but not quite seeing it clearly yet!

Glad it made it clear for you! It was kinda awkward recording the FH ones because to keep the camera steady you can't have body rotation lol...

For FH the pronation is definitely even less visible but if you examine the actions of top players like Fan Zhendong it's definitely there. 

It's actually in Chinese table tennis literature, the term is 手臂内旋（pronation) and 手臂外旋（supination), just that I never understood that term and always skipped past it :(

It is pronation except the ball is on the other side of the bat! 

http://youtu.be/iPjP27VATa0?list=PLYkf6H_0_xdtnkKFSbsC8s07T94SF9uAq&t=178" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/iPjP27VATa0?list=PLYkf6H_0_xdtnkKFSbsC8s07T94SF9uAq&t=178

Thought I'd just leave it here for anyone who might want to see :)

Hi, I'm really sorry for resurrecting this old (but gold) thread. Do you by any chance still have these videos? Links appear to be broken