i know it's allowed but i wonder why one would like to play that style? just to increase your winning percentage? I'd rather quit then.

Frictionless LP are not really allowed, so I'm puzzled a bit why he still plays with one, if it's truly frictionless.

As far as why someone would play that way: it's a personal preference, some people enjoy defense and seeing opponents make a mistake. To each their own.

P.S. There is a decent amount of skill involved in this style. Just different skills. 

As someone said previously some people enjoy winning the point offensively and some enjoy watching others lose by making mistakes. Same type of people will play inverted both sides and just push/chop block everything, so its not rubber specific, but of course frictionless lp does help with forcing more errors.

I always thought people that play like this, whether they use junk rubber or not, have weaknesses that they try to compensate by playing of the forced errors of their opponent.

Defensively this guy is a wall, but you can tell he is mentally weak, it takes a special kind of person to "cho" in your opponent's face when they make an error.

Rubbers that are frictionless from the factory or those treated are ILLEGAL but those who have lost friction due to use/age are legal based on the wording of the rules.. Not sure if any of that applies to his rubber.. Hard to tell.

I agree his game is unwatchable. Ugly as hell. But if he can compete playing this way, good for him.

I don't see a big difference between this and all the other pushblockers in the world.

good to see our sport progressing through these cheaters.

How cho-ing at a mistake mentally weak? lol...

They make errors BECAUSE of what the push-blocker is doing. Part of his strategy is sending over balls that will create those mistakes, which is certainly cho worthy in my book! 

I play that way and love doing it! Letting the other person feel that they CAN'T beat you, no matter what they do is a glorious feeling! They can't out-block, can't outpush, can't out-dink, can't out you name it... seeing THEM mentally crumble (or usually blame the rubber ) is very sweet, indeed. 

What I saw was a very good player beating an awkward opponent. Looking at the scores, it was no wonder that the pushblocker was choing when he got a point.

Anyway, I am for diversity in rubbers.

They should only be banned in those competitions that I am participating.

I'm also a fan of equipment diversity in TT. Just gives it a little something extra.

I personally believe that going inverted on both sides is just better for fitness but perhaps not for winning. There are styles with pips that are also quite active. I think the key is just to be active with your play. The guy in this video is not. He might have a skill but it's closer to playing darts than an athletic sport.

if you look at 1:40 he does a strawberry 

Let me rephrase for you...  i THINK he is mentally weak because he cho’s on forced errors to his opponents face . There... better? It’s an opinion now so you can take it or leave it.

As for your style of play. I’m glad you found what works for you, as long as it makes you happy. Just remember no one is going to be admiring his style of play 5-10-15 years from now, no one is going to clap for the excitement of the rallies that are shown in that video, and no one really is going to see him play and say... “wow that guy is a great athlete” win or lose.

I find this discussion sad.  As if we need to comment on people's choices of style rather than just enjoy the play.  A few of my own thoughts:

1) I seriously doubt there is anyone on this forum (OK, we can exclude Danny Seemiller) where any of us is going to admire their style of play 15 years from now.  We're all amateurs and there is a lot of ugly play here (which is why I never post videos of myself).  The main reason I like watching videos of MYTT members is because of the wide variety of styles, compared to the impressive but robotic play of professionals.

2) "Great athlete" is such a funny choice of phrase.  Table tennis is first and foremost about skill.  If the pushblocker style emphasizes skill over physical athleticism, that's just a choice and there's nothing wrong with it.  There are plenty of people who would claim that there are no great athletes in table tennis, since we lack the back our sport doesn't involve the massive muscles of some other sports.  Certainly, at the amateur level I see very few highly athletic players.

3) The Pushblocker used to post videos of himself and I think they were pretty popular.  Many people do like watching that style and seeing  the frustration of those super-loopers going down.

I think there is a legitimate complaint to be made when the pushblocker player uses illegally slick rubber, because it provides them more success with less skill.  However, you can play good pushblocker style with legal rubbers.

This is just an example of winning ugly and there's nothing wrong that (ask Brad Gilbert). I actually think he's more athletic than he looks. What looks non athletic is his posture, limited arm movement, and nonexistent waist turn. As we all should know, spin, control, and tactics play a huge role to win points and he does a good job in those areas. 

I think its ok to play any style that suits you and pushblocker style is ofcourse one of many in tt. There is nothing wrong playing like that with legal rubbers. With frictionless being illegal, i was surprised a match with a scorekeeper he was allowed to play with that racket. I know in lower levels it may not be enforced as much but i would hope the rules carry across for everyone in this sport, amateur or pro (same way i feel about illegal serves at lower levels, but thats another topic).

I have nothing against lp, sp, anti players. I tried sp/lp myself at one point after i had to recover from an injury and couldnt play inverted and wanted to stay in the game by playing with pips. Probably when im at the age where i cant move as well i would make the switch to pips anyway. The negativity i have for the guy' style in the video came mostly from his attitude when winning points, specifically the choing to the face on forced errors. Its more about etiquette to me i guess than the style. Just doesnt sit well with me.

DreiZ wrote: With frictionless being illegal, i was surprised a match with a scorekeeper he was allowed to play with that racket. I know in lower levels it may not be enforced as much but i would hope the rules carry across for everyone in this sport, amateur or pro (same way i feel about illegal serves at lower levels, but thats another topic).

I agree completely, but I don't think any evidence was presented that it was in fact frictionless. A player with high skill can still play the same style as that of former frictionless players.

Yes I don't like to see players cho to the opponent's face either, that seems unsportsman like to me, irrespective of the style played. Perhaps these guys have a history?

People keep talking about frictionless pips, but do we know for a fact that that is what he's using?  We have a local player here who plays reasonably well (1900 level) as a pushblocker with legal pips. It can be done.

With frictionless being illegal, i was surprised a match with a scorekeeper he was allowed to play with that racket. I know in lower levels it may not be enforced as much but i would hope the rules carry across for everyone in this sport, amateur or pro (same way i feel about illegal serves at lower levels, but thats another topic).

Dreiz, just be aware that in Europe, the person in the chair assumes the role of umpire, even if that person is a player in the group.

There's a big difference in responsibility between a scorekeeper and an umpire.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

No, but what is even sweeter than the cheering of a crowd? 

....the incessant whining of your opponent as you demolish them with "no skill"! Hahaha 

Sorry, I was actually just trying to expand upon what you said.  I should have worded it better.

Why is it that every "push blocker" I see turns into an 1100 level player when they have to make a real shot such as a forehand smash? Do none of them even have any semblance of a traditional offensive game? I have literally seen basement players with better form on put away shots than some high level "push blockers". Given all the pop ups that they get, it would seem to make sense to have this shot in their arsenal.

It's almost like they are playing an entirely different game.

This type of handling the game without good forehand attack are just under the average level for recreational players. And honestly - players using that strategy are the same in the life too.

The answer is simple. They haven't needed to! If you can make it to 2000+ without forehand attacking... I think that says more about your opponents than the pushblockers!

Obviously. There are many different styles out there, and among none other can someone make it to a high level without being able to execute basic, fundamental table tennis shots except for the one that is so heavily predicated on equipment.

Give a 2000 shakehand attacker (hitter, looper, all around, whatever) a pips out paddle and maybe their level goes down to 1800. Make a 2000 shakehand all around player chop, maybe their level goes down to 17-1800. Give a 2000 modern chopper an inverted both sides offensive paddle and maybe their level goes to 1800.

Give a pushblocker anything besides that, and from what I see they become a 1000 level player.

I don't have an issue with people choosing to play this style, but let's stop acting like it isn't a huge gimmick that completely bypasses learning any fundamentals of how to play tt, which any other style of player would need to have. That is why players of this style are hard capped at 2300 level, unless they can actually win points through smashing or something offensive as well. You won't find one that ever goes higher because they completely rely on people to make mistakes and have no way of really earning their own points. That won't work against the vast majority of 2300+ players.

And what level does the average inverted user max out as? Lol... 

Talking about top end players doesnt mean much to any of us amateurs. And for amateurs, pips or junk rubber etc. Is as valid as any other with essentially zero ceiling based on who they play against

I beg to differ on this.  I know 2000 players who chop occassionally for the fun of it.  Their level drops to 1300 or worse if they have to depend upon the chops. The only thing that saves them are higher quality serves.  Similarly, I've seen 1800 players pick up a hard bat and drop to 1400.

And none of your examples are really an apples-to-apples comparison.  Give a 2000 looper a pushblocker paddle (with slick LP) and they drop to 1500.

At the high levels (2300+), this breaks down because of the high level of understanding of how the mechanics of everything work, and because of generally increased athleticism and/or table "smarts."

Frankly, before I send too much time mocking the pushblocker style, I'd rather complain about the rise of "brainless" play (for loopers and hitters) since the switch from celluloid to plastic balls.

I will say that I have rarely come across an actual skilled LP player. Most use it because they are old or just less athletic in general. There are obviously exceptions and my coach is one of the very few skilled LP players in town with 3,000+ rating. I don't give a shit if you use LP or whatever the fking variant of it that are out there. But I can tell when playing against you whether you are skilled or just using it because you aren't physically capable of using inverted rubbers. 

True. Just the same as people use inverted because their brains are incapable of using strategy, skill, or finesse and so they must attempt to power loop or smash everything in a Crog the Caveman style. Which, coincidentally, is the ideal opponent for a pushblocker 

No, I actually think your brain is incapable of understanding a simple logic. Most LP players don't have a fking strategy lol. It looks as if they have a strategy but they look confused as f**k when playing against players who have experience dealing with LP players. 

People don't use inverted because they aren't strategic. It simply requires much more effort and years of practice to be better at inverted. You actually need much higher level of skills to actually EXECUTE your strategy when playing inverted rubbers. I'm starting to think we are just getting a bunch of sensitive LP users defending their style of play as if they are the "smart" players. 

Btw, username checks out. "obesechopper" lol. 

So do you actually believe what you're saying, or do you just make these posts as a way of trolling this thread?  I'm not a pips player and I hope never to become one, and yet even I'm insulted by your remarks.

I was talking over the pushblocker style with another looper (2000 level) and he made the observation that long pips and smooth have different learning curves.  At the start (lower level), it's easier to find success with long pips than with smooth.  Beyond a certain point, it's harder to find success with the pips than smooth.  So being a pips player at 1300 or even 1500 might take less skill than a smooth player at that level.  However, once you get to 1900+, it takes a lot of work (just as much work or maybe more) to keep improving with pips versus smooth.  I can see my friend's point.  The 1900 local pushblocker that I know works very hard on his technique, including regular coaching (from a non-pips coach!) and drilling. 

And then there are your remarks about the popularity of long pips among older players.  It's almost as if you think they shouldn't even be allowed to play the sport.  Of course, when you're older you have physical limitations -- it will happen to you, too, eventually.  But because table tennis was always about skills and tactics, being physically limited doesn't mean you can't compete, it just means adjusting styles, such as playing with LP.

You seem to have a very narrow view of what constitutes "real" table tennis, and i'm very glad that the real world doesn't actually work like that. It would be a very boring sport, indeed.

Mate, you literally repeated what I said. Grow a thicker skin and stop crying like a snowflake. I clearly stated I don't give a shit what rubber you use. I also clearly stated I don't deny there are skilled LP players, but it's much rarer. 

How in the f**k do some ppl get triggered so easily? 

Me smash hard! How pip man return!?!? Ahh... he no win without goofy rubber! 

I can sense your hatred at losing to people who literally never learned to use the other side of the paddle, lol...

At least we can all agree it is YOUR lack of skill hehe

I could recommend admins to lock that topic, as nothing useful can be found inside.

Lack of time only.

Stay obese my friend, stay obese and keep LPing. 

I eat newbie LP players for breakfast. I generally struggle with 2,000+ LP players but no complaints because they are skilled. Too bad they are so rare and are nowhere near being representative of the typical unskilled ones. 

You know what I sense from you? An obese LP player who sweat profusely after a few games. A person who decided to play TT because he's not athletic for any other sports only to find out he doesn't even have the stamina for inverted rubbers. He does comfort himself by contiously repeating in his head "at least I'm playing smart...". 

jpenmaster wrote: it's interesting to see the hate of the LP players on mytt.  LP players still have to put in a lot of time  to become good.  The only advantage  a LP player has is that they constantly play Loopers since it's a common style.  Let's also not forget the great LP players like Joo, Matsushita and Shiono. Each style is unique and should be respected.

Yeah but nobody here is confusing players like Joo, Matsushita, and Shiono who are great choppers with versatile games, with "push blockers" whos only move seems to be to stick their body in front of the ball and let the racket do whatever it does to get back.

I am not seeing the so called strategy i.e. placement, change of pace, variation in "push blockers" that was mentioned earlier but maybe someone can fill me in.

If so, what separates 1200 level pushblocker from 2200 one? 

Being better at sticking your body and racket in front of the ball and letting it do whatever happens and hoping for a mistake.

You guys are just too funny. I assume this means none of you have ever played a PB style player over 1300? Otherwise, you would know better.