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Backhand problems

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Category: Coaching & Tips
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Topic: Backhand problems
Posted By: brands77
Subject: Backhand problems
Date Posted: 09/29/2022 at 4:49am
I am returning to TT after a long time off. I've been back about 6 months now, after 40+ years, with a short 2 year stint back about 15 years ago and am really enjoying it.
I would like some advice please.
I can't get my backhand right. It pops up high or long from my pushes and my attempted loops. About 33% of the time it works, but mostly it doesn't.
I used to have a decent backhand, I was/am a pretty flat hitter, and could normally play this shot reliably, I could also chop and push solidly.
Now I can't get it right. I like to play close to the table and my problems are worse when I am forced back to play at a distance, my backhand is even more inconsistent from there.
What is confusing me is that, I recently found my old bat a pre-made Friendship 729 one with Friendship II rubber on it. This rubber is over 15 years old, it is dead and was stuck in the garage hidden for quite a lot of the intervening time. I can play my backhand much better with this than my new bat, which had DHS G888 on it and more recently Giant Dragon Superspin. I don't think my problems are purely down to my rubber, but I think it may also not be helping.
Sure I am never gonna set the world alight with my tt, but I would like to at least get back to near the standard I used to be as a kid.
I would be really grateful for any tips for me to try and at least improve my backhand problems.




Replies:
Posted By: GSOM_GSOM11
Date Posted: 09/29/2022 at 6:06pm
Maybe your new blade is too fast and bouncy. An old premade bat is usually pretty slow and helps you control your pushes and chops and flat kills.
What blade do you use now?


Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 10/01/2022 at 11:15am
hi brands
after 40 years the ball is a different size
thats what cauzes yr timing problem
keep practicing and maybe punch the ball a bit more
good luck

-------------
inactive dotec carbokev

yin he galaxy 1 p
ly

FH moristo sp AX MAX

bh moristo sp ax max


Posted By: brands77
Date Posted: 10/03/2022 at 7:39am
Hi GSOM and Pingpongpaddy,
Thank you both for the advice.
GSOM I have an Avalox all round blade, so I hope that isn't too fast for me. My forehand plays fine with it.
Pingpongpaddy, I played last night and tried to put your advice into action. I'm not entirely sure I was doing it correctly, but tried to hit through the ball a bit more. I think it may be working, but as you say time and practice will tell.
Thanks again both for taking the time to reply to me.


Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 10/05/2022 at 2:49pm
Best bet is to have someone film you while playing, that way you can see how you actually strike the ball.  I know it helped my brother work through some issues he was having.  In some cases what we think we are doing and what happens while playing are "somewhat" different.  It was in his case, and once he saw what was happening it became easier to make adjustments.  They say seeing is believing.

You don't need anything fancy to do this, just someone willing to hold a phone (or camera) while you practice.  Some controlled play where you script out what you are going to do (pushing or hitting for instance), and also some random play where you can see what happens in more of a game setting.

Let us know how you progress!


-------------
Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 10/05/2022 at 3:36pm
Hi Brands, I notice older players just don't move the same and therefor can't do their best shots as much

maybe getting advice from locals or getting a coach to help you


-------------
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: brands77
Date Posted: 10/06/2022 at 6:23am
1dennistt and smackman,
Thank you for the sound advice. I really hadn't thought of filming, but it does make sense and is pretty easy now and yes, my footwork is nowhere near as fast as it was, so I will make a conscious effort to think about it. I just know my backhand does feel right when I strike the ball and it isn't playing the way it used to.


Posted By: brands77
Date Posted: 10/20/2022 at 3:37am
Ok I have had some time to digest all of the advice and I've had a couple of session since. I thought I would give a progress update to let those of you who took the time to give me help, know how it worked out.
I tried pretty much all of the advice and all helped to some degree and I am a bit more consistent, but mostly more confident on my backhand now.
Snapping through and punching the shot has worked for me off the table, but not so much close to the table.
I've made a more conscious effort to move and get my feet into position too and that has worked - I think age and laziness had caught up with me. Mostly I am more aware of when I don't get my feet in the right place and am figuring out how to get them sorted. It is taking time, but I am getting there.
I also by chance started to bend my knees much more, which has helped both my bh and fh topspin.
One final thing, as any bad workman, I was looking at my "tools" to blame. I thought that my rubber was too fast and didn't suit me. The problem was basically my technique, I have got more used to my bat and rubber, it's not too fast I just needed to get better!
I know these would be obvious to pretty much all, but as pingpongdaddy said it's been a long time and you forget a lot. It was very useful to get back to basics and getting advice from the forum has helped me do that.
Thank you all.


Posted By: LOG1C1AN
Date Posted: 10/20/2022 at 11:59pm
You might consider trying short pips on your BH to facilitate your preference to hit through the ball and learn to punch it.


Posted By: brands77
Date Posted: 10/23/2022 at 4:46am
Yes, it is something I have considered, but I am trying to get my technique back first and then when I feel comfortable I might try it.
However, no one I know plays with short pips so I haven't been able to borrow a bat and see how they play.
What would anyone suggest as a cheap intro to short pips that I could try to get an idea of how they play? I was thinking of putting it  on an old blade and experimenting.


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 6:16pm
Hi Brands.
I have similar problems in terms of not enough consistency of BH and not enough speed in shots, 
and it's mostly shown with much better players than me as they are faster.
With close to my level of game (those guys are 2150, 2200 usatt) I have not so many issues with my BH as they give me more time to be able to think
 and I still can make pretty good shots from both BH and FH :) :) :) 
Example of my game (I am in black t-shirt, my opponent in beige t-shirt is 2500 usatt which is much better than me  in this game I lost 9,7,7).
https://youtu.be/xpnBDk_WlXM?t=637" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/xpnBDk_WlXM?t=637
One of such moments on 10-37 - He serves, I am receiving back with rotative BH and move to possible position where I could hit.
But I am unable to hit as my mindset is "just return back" instead of "make a quality shot - you are in proper position".
It's bad and it should be just well trained and set to reflexes - as in game not always you have much time to think.

To achieve those things - have faster BH, get more consistency and proper mindset for good shots, I started to make exercises to be able to hit with my BH from distance.
I am using return board (as do not have practice partners as we 99.9% of time play in club and not train) in my practices.
The exercise is simple - set up the board more than 1 meter away from the table and try to make good series of BH topspins(or at all shots) against it.

Short video of my trainings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIssWyUWHo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIssWyUWHo

So just train with stronger hits in one direction, try to keep one and the same pace, try to keep one and the same tempo, make video of your trainings and make little adjustments.
For you may be it will be more difficult to hit to 1 meter away RB, as it requires good physics so just use 1 foot distance.



Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Hi Brands.
I have similar problems in terms of not enough consistency of BH and not enough speed in shots, 
and it's mostly shown with much better players than me as they are faster.
With close to my level of game (those guys are 2150, 2200 usatt) I have not so many issues with my BH as they give me more time to be able to think
 and I still can make pretty good shots from both BH and FH :) :) :) 
Example of my game (I am in black t-shirt, my opponent in beige t-shirt is 2500 usatt which is much better than me  in this game I lost 9,7,7).
https://youtu.be/xpnBDk_WlXM?t=637" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/xpnBDk_WlXM?t=637
One of such moments on 10-37 - He serves, I am receiving back with rotative BH and move to possible position where I could hit.
But I am unable to hit as my mindset is "just return back" instead of "make a quality shot - you are in proper position".
It's bad and it should be just well trained and set to reflexes - as in game not always you have much time to think.

To achieve those things - have faster BH, get more consistency and proper mindset for good shots, I started to make exercises to be able to hit with my BH from distance.
I am using return board (as do not have practice partners as we 99.9% of time play in club and not train) in my practices.
The exercise is simple - set up the board more than 1 meter away from the table and try to make good series of BH topspins(or at all shots) against it.

Short video of my trainings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIssWyUWHo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIssWyUWHo

So just train with stronger hits in one direction, try to keep one and the same pace, try to keep one and the same tempo, make video of your trainings and make little adjustments.
For you may be it will be more difficult to hit to 1 meter away RB, as it requires good physics so just use 1 foot distance.


It's a good backhand but your wrist is too tight.  So you need to make everything happen with your muscles and that will make your stroke more stable in matches but will limit your ability to add heavy spin.  That's my opinion.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Hi Brands.
I have similar problems in terms of not enough consistency of BH and not enough speed in shots, 
and it's mostly shown with much better players than me as they are faster.
With close to my level of game (those guys are 2150, 2200 usatt) I have not so many issues with my BH as they give me more time to be able to think
 and I still can make pretty good shots from both BH and FH :) :) :) 
Example of my game (I am in black t-shirt, my opponent in beige t-shirt is 2500 usatt which is much better than me  in this game I lost 9,7,7).
https://youtu.be/xpnBDk_WlXM?t=637" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/xpnBDk_WlXM?t=637
One of such moments on 10-37 - He serves, I am receiving back with rotative BH and move to possible position where I could hit.
But I am unable to hit as my mindset is "just return back" instead of "make a quality shot - you are in proper position".
It's bad and it should be just well trained and set to reflexes - as in game not always you have much time to think.

To achieve those things - have faster BH, get more consistency and proper mindset for good shots, I started to make exercises to be able to hit with my BH from distance.
I am using return board (as do not have practice partners as we 99.9% of time play in club and not train) in my practices.
The exercise is simple - set up the board more than 1 meter away from the table and try to make good series of BH topspins(or at all shots) against it.

Short video of my trainings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIssWyUWHo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izIssWyUWHo

So just train with stronger hits in one direction, try to keep one and the same pace, try to keep one and the same tempo, make video of your trainings and make little adjustments.
For you may be it will be more difficult to hit to 1 meter away RB, as it requires good physics so just use 1 foot distance.


Interesting to see Alex Yao playing again. One of the top juniors in the USA about a decade ago and then disappeared from the map. Doesn't look like he is 2500 level anymore, but has he started playing/coaching again?


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's a good backhand but your wrist is too tight.  So you need to make everything happen with your muscles and that will make your stroke more stable in matches but will limit your ability to add heavy spin.  That's my opinion.
Hello, yes - I sold my spin in sake of stability, and tempo - the shot with less spin is much shorter in amplitude and allows to return back into ready position and play faster. 

I did not do video with previous technics against topspin but just compare 2 BH topspins against underspin (the RB in this case does not have grip and returns back underspin from topspin (like longpips or antispin))
Old approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNSi_tb5vOo&t=123s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNSi_tb5vOo&t=123s
New approach: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7kDJOxltwo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7kDJOxltwo
I like more new one - even though it is less rotative - it's still pretty stable and fast.

And game is game- in game I will of course adjust :) 
My training of serve + attack when there is no partner (against RB) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lVzUXCJwPQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lVzUXCJwPQ


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Interesting to see Alex Yao playing again. One of the top juniors in the USA about a decade ago and then disappeared from the map. Doesn't look like he is 2500 level anymore, but has he started playing/coaching again?
Mb he is not playing on 25 hundred right now - but still is much better than me :) 
He moves and plays faster, has better touch, good reflexes as he basically trained since childhood while I started to train at the age of 32 :) .

Not sure if he is back to trainings, hope yes. 
And it is good that he came to our club - we adjusted to each other too much so currently changes started to happen.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's a good backhand but your wrist is too tight.  So you need to make everything happen with your muscles and that will make your stroke more stable in matches but will limit your ability to add heavy spin.  That's my opinion.
Hello, yes - I sold my spin in sake of stability, and tempo - the shot with less spin is much shorter in amplitude and allows to return back into ready position and play faster. 

I did not do video with previous technics against topspin but just compare 2 BH topspins against underspin (the RB in this case does not have grip and returns back underspin from topspin (like longpips or antispin))
Old approach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNSi_tb5vOo&t=123s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNSi_tb5vOo&t=123s
New approach: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7kDJOxltwo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7kDJOxltwo
I like more new one - even though it is less rotative - it's still pretty stable and fast.

And game is game- in game I will of course adjust :) 
My training of serve + attack when there is no partner (against RB) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lVzUXCJwPQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lVzUXCJwPQ
The old one has a stiffer wrist than the new one, so I don't agree with you it has more rotation, and arguably the new one is still too stiff.  But you know what you are doing, I am just pointing out the technical limitation that would make it easier for someone at a higher level to play against.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The old one has a stiffer wrist than the new one, so I don't agree with you it has more rotation, and arguably the new one is still too stiff.  But you know what you are doing, I am just pointing out the technical limitation that would make it easier for someone at a higher level to play against.
To ensure that the old one has more spin check following:
Old one - is "classic" - supination in wrist  - so extra spin produced with + of supination; Thus the ball flies back from the RB worse - additional arc makes ball to fly more to bottom and returns back not so stably - worse for the exercise - but does not matter - just shows us that it has more spin.

New one - is "modern" - pronation in wrist - no extra spin produced; Thus the ball flies from RB better  - as no much spin - the arc does not go down till the RB and thus the ball flies back better with less underspin.

About too stiff - I constantly change the grip for proper situations to have enough amplitude to make stroke - when need banana - make more BH-ish grip, when attack from FH - change it to be more FH-ish.

If you check the game - will see that it seems in game that it's too loose actually :)


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 9:19pm
It looks like you're simply opening the bat angle more in the "new" BH variant, but really you're supinating in both cases - otherwise it wouldn't look the way it is looking now (your BH rubber will be facing towards yourself if you really did pronate instead of supinate)

The old one you're still contacting upper half of the ball and relying more on brute force brushing to overcome the underspin which is indeed the "old" way of doing BH opening loop. 

Imo the open angle BH opening loop against heavy underspin (your "new" approach) is similar to the BH philosophy of Darko Jorgic and Tomokazu Harimoto and is a better approach for the BH against underspin for many reasons. Firstly you're almost immune to extremely heavy backspin as you simply open the racket angle and convert the incoming backspin to your own topspin, whereas with the more closed angle, if your opponent has better spin production capability you'll be overwhelmed by the backspin and have to compromise on body position to loop it. Secondly, the set up time is a lot less as it's easier to execute (you can even make the backswing even shorter than what you have now), you can in fact take the ball on the rise easily like what you do for topspin. Thirdly it requires less arm power as you're borrowing from the incoming underspin rather than working against it - resulting in a smoother, more consistent stroke. Finally, because there's less upwards movement required it's easier to transition to the next ball (which will be topspin). The tradeoff, like what you identified correctly, is less spin, but I'll take that trade any time of the year. 

Both my BH and FH opening loop off backspin is based on such a philosophy. If you're looping everything early it creates quite an oppressive game for your opponent. 

On the FH the closest comparison I thought of is Sun Yingsha/Ma Long who employs the open angle FH against underspin on one hand, and Timo Boll/Zhang Jike on the other end who "brute force" spins the ball with a more closed angle. I think the brute force spin approach has some merits but requires a lot of explosiveness and power to execute - not everyone can be so physically gifted. Open angle approach is simply easier and more reliable imo.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It looks like you're simply opening the bat angle more in the "new" BH variant, but really you're supinating in both cases - otherwise it wouldn't look the way it is looking now (your BH rubber will be facing towards yourself if you really did pronate instead of supinate)
To understand whether it's pronation or supination you should check the bones of the wrist at start point and at the end point of motion - it's possible to do even with this quality of video.
And 1 more thing :) 
I do not care to much in ensuring you in all that stuff (supination or pronation is used) - what I do care  - it's to give and advice to topic starter.
The advice is an exercise which can help.

While something like "you should use more wrist" or "you should play faster - just out of bounce" is just a gathering of statistics but not and advice.
You can not tell yourself - play faster and start playing faster. 
Only specific additional exercise can help.
IMHO :) 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It looks like you're simply opening the bat angle more in the "new" BH variant, but really you're supinating in both cases - otherwise it wouldn't look the way it is looking now (your BH rubber will be facing towards yourself if you really did pronate instead of supinate)
To understand whether it's pronation or supination you should check the bones of the wrist at start point and at the end point of motion - it's possible to do even with this quality of video.
And 1 more thing :) 
I do not care to much in ensuring you in all that stuff (supination or pronation is used) - what I do care  - it's to give and advice to topic starter.
The advice is an exercise which can help.

While something like "you should use more wrist" or "you should play faster - just out of bounce" is just a gathering of statistics but not and advice.
You can not tell yourself - play faster and start playing faster. 
Only specific additional exercise can help.
IMHO :) 

Forearm pronation and supination is an objective scientific term lol...

Using pronation in the context of a BH loop is plain misleading imo.

If you can see your knuckles/back of the hand, it is in a pronated position. If you can see your palm it is in a supinated position. The fact is that in all your BHs you end in a position where you can see your palm -> which is a supinated position and meant that you supinated to reach that position. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:32pm
I know what is what :) 
Moreover can proof it with pictures from video - but I do not need it cause I do not care :) 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

I know what is what :) 
Moreover can proof it with pictures from video - but I do not need it cause I do not care :) 

Lol - I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your observation/advice - I'm just nitpicking that the terminology you mentioned (pronating forearm for a BH loop) is just a plain scientifically incorrect observation. I think a more accurate description would be that you pronated more during the backswing to open the racket angle up, not that you pronated while hitting the ball. 

See end position screenshot here - it is quite clear that in your end position the palm is facing you - hence you're in a supinated position and supinated to get to that point:



-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm just nitpicking that the terminology you mentioned (pronating forearm for a BH loop) is just a plain scientifically incorrect observation.
Lol :) 
I just state that you are making  a plain scientifically incorrect observation that I was wrong in using that terms :) 
But I do not care :) 
BTW to check whether it's pronation or supination you need 2 pictures - start point and end point - then it will become obvious for you that you were making wrong conclusion :) 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/13/2022 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The old one has a stiffer wrist than the new one, so I don't agree with you it has more rotation, and arguably the new one is still too stiff.  But you know what you are doing, I am just pointing out the technical limitation that would make it easier for someone at a higher level to play against.
To ensure that the old one has more spin check following:
Old one - is "classic" - supination in wrist  - so extra spin produced with + of supination; Thus the ball flies back from the RB worse - additional arc makes ball to fly more to bottom and returns back not so stably - worse for the exercise - but does not matter - just shows us that it has more spin.

New one - is "modern" - pronation in wrist - no extra spin produced; Thus the ball flies from RB better  - as no much spin - the arc does not go down till the RB and thus the ball flies back better with less underspin.

About too stiff - I constantly change the grip for proper situations to have enough amplitude to make stroke - when need banana - make more BH-ish grip, when attack from FH - change it to be more FH-ish.

If you check the game - will see that it seems in game that it's too loose actually :)

Got it.  I don't see the supination in the first video but I probably need to look closer.  When I see the banana, it might make sense, but in the game, the quality problem was the same, but against a 2500, I guess it won't matter.  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm just nitpicking that the terminology you mentioned (pronating forearm for a BH loop) is just a plain scientifically incorrect observation.
Lol :) 
I just state that you are making  a plain scientifically incorrect observation that I was wrong in using that terms :) 
But I do not care :) 
BTW to check whether it's pronation or supination you need 2 pictures - start point and end point - then it will become obvious for you that you were making wrong conclusion :) 

If you indeed used pronation for power - the end position should be in a pronated position and not a supinated position and you would be seeing your knuckles (from your point of view) instead of your palm. 

I know you're opening racket angle prior to hitting the ball for better ease of lifting the backspin but you're definitely not pronating during the stroke (nobody at a high level does pronation when hitting the ball in the BH stroke period...) 




-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:05am
anyway Valiantsin has a very good BH and BH chiquita, it's funny to see him say stuff about "not enough consistency and speed" with his BH.... guy even goes to the FH side to chiquita FH short balls (which I generally never dare to do for fear of getting aced on the deep BH), and generally wins points when he gets the killer BH in. 

If there was any improvement to make it would be more on footwork and FH imo. But as Alamiyan has proven, with a strong BH you don't even need any FH stroke to play at a high level lol


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:33am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

anyway Valiantsin has a very good BH and BH chiquita, it's funny to see him say stuff about "not enough consistency and speed" with his BH.... guy even goes to the FH side to chiquita FH short balls (which I generally never dare to do for fear of getting aced on the deep BH), and generally wins points when he gets the killer BH in. 

Thank you for good words about my BH :) 
 
By not consistent I meant when my opponent can deal with my speed and moreover can propose higher speed - then my shots become risky and not consistent.
And one more thing - I need not only to return somehow but to make some good shots from my BH and whenever I tried to add power - in 80% of cases the ball flowed wherever it wanted except where it needed to be.
Prior to these changes I trained like I thought mostly girls did - I mean tried to do close to table game and till some level of opponents it went well, but this guy showed me perfectly -  I am not able to win only in close to table game if my opponent is fast and powerful enough.
Or I need to have not only FH killer shot but BH as well to at least show aggression from my BH to not to allow him play freely through my BH - he returns pretty simple to my BH when wants to buy some time.
Thus I came to idea to make my BH powerful shots more consistent and working on that.
Sometimes works well, sometimes does not.

With this part I agree :
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

If there was any improvement to make it would be more on footwork and FH imo. But as Alamiyan has proven, with a strong BH you don't even need any FH stroke to play at a high level lol
My FH is pretty strong but need to utilize it better and thus need better footwork to do that.
For BH as well.
And for receives as well.
Overall - I know how to move only close to table (there are not so many options - so easy - see the ball try to get there or at least reach it stretching the hand :)  ).
When started to train with bigger shots from BH saw very awkward moves from my side on video and yes - trying to work on footwork but there is not so much of improvement.

About my banana - it's not so much spinny or speedy as appeared easy to attack actually - this guy showed it. So against him I needed to do it not in tempo I used to, but tried to do it faster and thus risked pretty much and he caught me couple of times with longer serves because of that. 
Overall I liked to play against him - pink glasses were broken.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:44am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.

Because you don't have a range of wrist motion, the equality comes from your upper arm usage and that is usually very visible.  You can't play a backhand like say Liam Pitchford or even Ma Long or Fan Zhendong - you have no wrist leverage.  You are a good player for sure, I am just pointing out a technical limitation of your approach - the backhand gives you less because the backswing gives you less because you don't get much whip on the backswing.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 1:49am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

With this part I agree :
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

If there was any improvement to make it would be more on footwork and FH imo. But as Alamiyan has proven, with a strong BH you don't even need any FH stroke to play at a high level lol
My FH is pretty strong but need to utilize it better and thus need better footwork to do that.
For BH as well.
And for receives as well.
Overall - I know how to move only close to table (there are not so many options - so easy - see the ball try to get there or at least reach it stretching the hand :)  ).
When started to train with bigger shots from BH saw very awkward moves from my side on video and yes - trying to work on footwork but there is not so much of improvement.

About my banana - it's not so much spinny or speedy as appeared easy to attack actually - this guy showed it. So against him I needed to do it not in tempo I used to, but tried to do it faster and thus risked pretty much and he caught me couple of times with longer serves because of that. 
Overall I liked to play against him - pink glasses were broken.

Tbh your banana flick is pretty strong - I wouldn't want to deal with it in a match and would be aiming to jam it as much as I can. The issue in your match is that you were only banana flicking one type of spin and placement which made it easy for him to anticipate. If you did the short spinny chiquita, and also occassionally the chiquita towards his FH, and mixed the sidespin / topspin proportions (there's even a chiquita that produces side-underspin if you wanted to really mess with your opponent's head) it'll make his life hell trying to decipher all the variations. 

Your FH is pretty strong when you get it in, but there's a lot of errors and also you're not getting in a good position for the next shot if it's blocked - mostly due to weak positioning of the feet - you're not getting into the "power" position which the FH requires. 

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).






-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 2:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  IF you need a bigger stroke to get quality, it never fools anyone.
Hi - did not get what you meant by this phrase.

Because you don't have a range of wrist motion, the equality comes from your upper arm usage and that is usually very visible.  You can't play a backhand like say Liam Pitchford or even Ma Long or Fan Zhendong - you have no wrist leverage.  You are a good player for sure, I am just pointing out a technical limitation of your approach - the backhand gives you less because the backswing gives you less because you don't get much whip on the backswing.
:) You compared me with guys from another planet :) 
For me I think my BH when becomes really stable (i.e. I will make in a row 50-70 strokes of a good level against RB without loosing the ball in series in this exercise against topspin RB) will be good till level of 2400-2500 
:) :) It seems it's obviously that I have some other limitations like for example blahness mentioned - too much of additional weight that will not allow me to get to that level (and many others - but this one I consider as a main one) 
So basically this BH will be more than I even can have in best case :) 


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 2:17am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Tbh your banana flick is pretty strong - I wouldn't want to deal with it in a match and would be aiming to jam it as much as I can. The issue in your match is that you were only banana flicking one type of spin and placement which made it easy for him to anticipate. If you did the short spinny chiquita, and also occassionally the chiquita towards his FH, and mixed the sidespin / topspin proportions (there's even a chiquita that produces side-underspin if you wanted to really mess with your opponent's head) it'll make his life hell trying to decipher all the variations. 
You know - I do not have much of experience to play against such strong guys.
Last time I played against similar rating guy was against Yinka Olasoji (he is also around 2500) that time I could not even make myself to attack at all from my BH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_qvEBsvVkA" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_qvEBsvVkA
After that started trainings to utilize pattern serve + attack.
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Your FH is pretty strong when you get it in, but there's a lot of errors and also you're not getting in a good position for the next shot if it's blocked - mostly due to weak positioning of the feet - you're not getting into the "power" position which the FH requires. 
Yes - I need better patterns and better footwork for them.
But it all need time and ability to train - not all I can train without practice partner - far from all actually.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).

Yes - my weight is a stumbling block for me :(
I try to deal with it from time to time - but have no much success with that :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/14/2022 at 4:57am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:


Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It could also be because of your weight - if you were lighter it would be easier to move faster. Usually heavier players choose a much more compact FH stroke sacrificing some power for continuity (basically minimal arm movement with most of the incoming power coming from weight transfer) so that they can get in position faster. The other thing is fast shuffling of the feet and increasing your frequency of steps instead of one big lunge which leaves you unbalanced).

Yes - my weight is a stumbling block for me :(
I try to deal with it from time to time - but have no much success with that :(

You can watch how some other heavier weight players deal with that (Sun Mingyang, Liang Jingkun, etc...). I think their strokes are usually super compact and they make their attacks really count. 

Or just cut carbs and lose the weight haha, I once lost 10kg in 2 months doing just that!


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:58am
What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 11:22am
It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A96q8X1SrcI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A96q8X1SrcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-FX486fPA" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-FX486fPA

Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A96q8X1SrcI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A96q8X1SrcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-FX486fPA" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-FX486fPA

Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168
First 2 videos - Fan is using modern techniques - none classic flower.
Third video - Liam shows exactly what should be done https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=173.
Dan does shorten, more modern variant https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=216
Could you please clarify what you mean by using ancient techniques?
And tell please more wide about what to your mind I am doing wrong in BH?



Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 2:06pm
I like what does Liam here :  https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=269" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=269
BTW there is interesting situation:
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=408
First 3 shots Liam is making "flower" while next 3 shots he is doing in modern technics - more focused, more consistent, more powerful, but yes - less spinny.
I advice you to look at 1/4 speed of a movie - it allows to see pretty much to be able to analyze.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

Analysing Dan's technique - his elbow is in the exact same position from start to finish which means he's not engaging his lats for extra power (you see the elbow go to the right and even sometimes backwards in a clockwise rotation in all top players). Also there's no weight transfer, also an incredibly important part of power production. They only analysed surface level stuff like use of wrist which is just lame imo.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It seems all the best players in the world are using these ancient techniques - you are focusing on the wrong thing if you call it flower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A96q8X1SrcI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A96q8X1SrcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-FX486fPA" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-FX486fPA

Another example without any flower:

https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=108
https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=168
First 2 videos - Fan is using modern techniques - none classic flower.
Third video - Liam shows exactly what should be done https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=173.
Dan does shorten, more modern variant https://youtu.be/28eNy4mtzKA?t=216
Could you please clarify what you mean by using ancient techniques?
And tell please more wide about what to your mind I am doing wrong in BH?


You dont use the wrist the esy they do to get an aggressive stroke.  Ancient techniques is my exaggeration of your classic backhand statement.  That said, if you think you are doing what Liam and Fan are doing , that is okay.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:49pm
Many coaches show that old is old and not to use that as it gives less control (motion is less focused): 
https://youtu.be/08uke_yt-gQ?list=PL00V7VVbh-k-9mcrTLyaUdlJg3mBqJcpi&t=279" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/08uke_yt-gQ?list=PL00V7VVbh-k-9mcrTLyaUdlJg3mBqJcpi&t=279
Here is how to study BH smash/drive in modern way:
https://youtu.be/MSTzw6MZwb8&t=1428" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/MSTzw6MZwb8&t=1428
Here is how to properly study banana
https://youtu.be/A1vq-Kfx2zs?list=PLGOhPLDsvCQIhfMYdtmptLcQtBNqyycii&t=213" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/A1vq-Kfx2zs?list=PLGOhPLDsvCQIhfMYdtmptLcQtBNqyycii&t=213
Overall tendency for BH - shorter + faster instead or more rotative but slower.


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
Agree - I almost do not have problem with hand motion (except I do know what exactly I do and use pronation and supination depending on proper things - but does not matter :) :) )
What I have problems with - is movement.
That's why I often times do strokes just with hand instead of proper usage of technics-  then the ball flies somehow but the quality is poor.
What more worse is that without proper movement to the stroke I can not go to the next position well - and often times just can not deal with incoming ball if it returns.
Fat + bad patterns of movement and that's it - my BH looses 70% of how much deadly it could be.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  
Agree - I almost do not have problem with hand motion (except I do know what exactly I do and use pronation and supination depending on proper things - but does not matter :) :) )
What I have problems with - is movement.
That's why I often times do strokes just with hand instead of proper usage of technics-  then the ball flies somehow but the quality is poor.
What more worse is that without proper movement to the stroke I can not go to the next position well - and often times just can not deal with incoming ball if it returns.
Fat + bad patterns of movement and that's it - my BH looses 70% of how much deadly it could be.

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
The answer is easy: for first 2 years I trained + played in a small room.
It gives many limitations.
To win in a small room you should have powerful and pretty consistent strokes.
You do not necessarily need to have good movement as there is not much place to move actually.
So the pattern to win there is simple - be first to attack and return ball as much inconveniently as possible.
But that "inconveniently" is not such difficult in good gyms with enough place if your opponent fast enough :) 
And the strokes quality becomes somehow not "killing" enough :) 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/16/2022 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah your movement patterns are kinda messed up at the moment, it seems that you probably didn't apply the same amount of effort to understand footwork the way that you applied to your BH stroke.... 
The answer is easy: for first 2 years I trained + played in a small room.
It gives many limitations.
To win in a small room you should have powerful and pretty consistent strokes.
You do not necessarily need to have good movement as there is not much place to move actually.
So the pattern to win there is simple - be first to attack and return ball as much inconveniently as possible.
But that "inconveniently" is not such difficult in good gyms with enough place if your opponent fast enough :) 
And the strokes quality becomes somehow not "killing" enough :) 

Yeah that explains a lot. I feel like the best footwork tutorials I found online are all in Chinese, by a guy called 米粒乒乓, and the ideas he teaches are nowhere to be found in any English tutorials so far. The concept he always teaches is to use multiple small adjustment steps, not one step to reach the ball. The idea is that you don't want to commit your body weight onto any foot too early lest your anticipation is wrong and you get caught flat footed. For eg even when you can reach a middle short ball in 1 step you should still take 3 steps instead so that you can still watch the ball like a hawk in the meantime and adjust in case your anticipation is wrong. You only commit to a stroke (plant your weight on a foot) once you're sure, and by the time you can no longer adjust much, so you better plant the foot in a good position for hitting it. This way you don't "commit" early, which removes a lot of assumptions you need to make before hitting, also you get more information about the trajectory which reduces errors, and maybe your opponent will make a positioning error which you can exploit (for eg pivoting too early). After hitting any shot you should continue doing the left right left right stepping/shuffling in order to "find" the best position in relation to what your opponent can do.

One advantage of the new horrible WTT side view is the footwork angle. I watched some Ma Long games and he definitely takes a lot more steps than a lot of ppl realise. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/17/2022 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.



-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/17/2022 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.
SSSS :) 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/17/2022 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 12:53am

Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 1:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....

Of course you don't need to create spin with the wrist.  All advanced players just do it.  No not just Timo Boll. All of them.  The body is far more important but watch the degree of wrist snap driven by the backswing of any top player's strokes. 


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 1:24am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 
with all due respect this doesnt address anything I have written.

Look at the very first shot that Fan hits.  Look at his backswing.   Valiantsin foesnt have anything close to that.  

I get that the body usage is different and I am not even arguing or debating that. But sometimes you can see when there is a limit of what is getting transmitted to the racket.




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 3:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

What Dubina is doing with his wrist here is what I am talking about.  I hope it is more accessible than the prior examples I gave.  

https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/zXPD6nO_Vj0
He is doing classic old technics - we call that sometimes "flower" because in final position his palm reminds leaf while his head is a flower :) 
It's not bad - just old one.

I actually agree with you here, this way of powering the BH is the old way. With the new way the bat is a lot more open and the BH rubber will be facing right side (not pointing downwards like Dubina). Dubina uses a lot of power but still the ball is not that fast imo. 

For me this kind of brute force brushing with the wrist is the old way. The new way is like Darko Jorgic and Harimoto - open blade angle and hitting through the ball - and also same concept as your newer BH. 

So you are saying that Valiantsin plays his backhand like Fan right?

Yes the concepts are similar - open angle + supination + lat pull mechanism + a full arc (goes from bottom to top and then bottom again), except Fan Zhendong actually gets a lot lower in his body position and has much better weight transfer and explosiveness and moves a lot better (Valiantsin often compromises his strokes when it comes to weird positions instead of moving).  

The .major difference, which you seem to miss, is that swing plane is not the same as active use of the wrist.  Old classic technique had a swing plane that went from left to right and trapped the ball.  New technique tries to improve the degree with which the backswing and follow through are lined up with the ball by taking the wrist further back on the backswing and playing more towards the ball. Otherwise the techniques are not that different - they have similar sources of spin and power.

Valiantsin is not engaging the wrist, he is mostly driving the stroke with his shoulder.  Not necessarily a bad thing but I won't post beyond this point. Because at least you agree with him.

Here is Ti Long posting a video where he refines someone's old technique to make it more modern and new.  Note that the wrist is still actively used.  It is just the swing plane that is different. And he illustrates this clearly in the video.

https://youtu.be/t149bZuzw_k

The techniques are not as different as you think they are.  Someone with a good backhand with the old technique will still have an awesome backhand,  he just might have some recovery issues.


You don't need to use the "wrist" to get a lot of spin, the supination + fingers can create a lot of spin by themselves. Trying to actively spin mainly with the ulnar deviation plane of the wrist can create instability in the contact which may not be desirable unless you're Timo Boll and can handle all the thin contacts precisely....

Of course you don't need to create spin with the wrist.  All advanced players just do it.  No not just Timo Boll. All of them.  The body is far more important but watch the degree of wrist snap driven by the backswing of any top player's strokes. 

Now you finally say that the body is far more important - yes it is and this is exactly why Dubina's stroke is incapable of reaching the very high power levels - it simply lacks a few critical power generation mechanisms by the large muscle groups. The wrist is probably the weakest mechanism - it only needs to go along with the ride (which is what you're seeing in most top players). 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 3:31am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Notice how in almost all the finishing powerloops, Fan Zhendong has his bat near his hip and pointing downwards see 6:47 slowmo for example - compare it with Dubina's finishing position near the front - this is where the "missing power" is (Dubina is missing that complete weight transfer to the right leg, and also missing the use of the powerful lat muscles to pull the elbow to the right in a clockwise motion, and also missing a more complete use of supination). I would actually volunteer that Valiantsin's stroke has a higher power ceiling than Dubina's stroke (though Dubina probably has quite a bit more spin). 
with all due respect this doesnt address anything I have written.

Look at the very first shot that Fan hits.  Look at his backswing.   Valiantsin foesnt have anything close to that.  

I get that the body usage is different and I am not even arguing or debating that. But sometimes you can see when there is a limit of what is getting transmitted to the racket.



Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 5:01am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
I guess it would be great to have video which will have proper explanation on what really happens to avoid the myths of "wrist" motion.
At the same time it will become more clear on how actually the stoke can happen in different situations


Posted By: brands77
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:17am
Valiantsin, Thanks for the follow up to my initial post. You are way, way better than I. I have no idea what my usatt rating is as I am from uk, but I have only just started playing in the bottom division of my local tt league. I am winning about 50% of my matches though.

My problems I think are multiple, but if it is any help to any other lower standard players like myself. the big thing that made a difference for me, was footwork. I thought I was ok on my feet, but that was when i was 15 when I last played. Now I am 60 I am not as fast on my feet at all. I tend to plant myself for the shot at the start of the rally and I don't anticipate until too late. I have worked hard on this, moving early and try to move back to the centre line without thinking.
For me this has been the thing that has helped the most.


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:39am
Agreed Valiantsin.....great idea Thumbs Up

It would be great to have a "Saved" thread with video and a clear explanation in plain language for the players which everyone can understand in a very simple straightforward way.

People tend to learn in very different ways especially later adult learners or the very young. Nextlevel etc and the other good journeyman players/coaches/Practice partners who have helpled tons of fledgling players will hopefully agree that sometimes things click different ways for different people. This can be because of age, size, or injury maybe or starting levels.

Soooo... it really must breach those issues. You can't expect the masses  of people to understand scientifically correct terms if they have no base to work from. Also there is the other slight issue of almost forcing scientifically correct terms on players. Exanding knowledge is amazing but in a way that the masses can understand and benifit from would be even better.

Non of us here are playing Chinese/Euro super league.... after all....If anyone is....can I have tickets or a crafty bit of kit Smile No really it would be good...

It must of course explain these terms in the simplest way so a newer players isn't overly confused by complicated scientifically correct terms and can grasp these scientifically correct terms while being easy to understand. Especially if these are younger or very new to the game.

It a great idea honestly.

Any takers to get this off the ground? Smile



Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 6:44am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Believe it or not, most of the power from the chiquita is still not coming from the wrist (although it looks like it), it is coming from fingers+supination for the most part. The ppl who think that they can achieve such an explosive chiquita against underspin with just the "wrist" (referring to the ulnar deviation plane) will pretty much never get there. I'm saying this as someone who has the chiquita as a main weapon. Of course a lot of ppl refer to forearm supination erroneously as a "wrist" action - which is of course technically incorrect. We need to stop using scientifically incorrect and vague terminology in describing technique to avoid any confusion in newer players. 
I guess it would be great to have video which will have proper explanation on what really happens to avoid the myths of "wrist" motion.
At the same time it will become more clear on how actually the stoke can happen in different situations

Table tennis is a weird sport. Every other sport like badminton and tennis already have incredibly scientific, detailed biomechanical description of what is involved in every aspect of the stroke. In particular, nobody talks about "wrist movement" in badminton, they use the correct terminology ie forearm pronation and supination lol. 

Tbh this is not new in the Chinese circles, they call it 小臂内旋(forearm pronation) and 小臂外旋 (forearm supination). I once asked my ex-Chinese provincial player about the secret to his incredible amount of BH spin, and he did tell me once it was all about the supination and good use of body.

I have some beef with this issue because most coaches tell you to "use the wrist", and never tell you in what particular way they mean (there's 2 planes to wrist movement - radial/ulnar deviation plane, and flexion/extension. Pronation/supination doesn't come from the wrist but is a forearm action. 
So when a coach says "use the wrist" it becomes a 1/3 chance that the student will know what the correct movement is lol. 




-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:00am
Originally posted by brands77 brands77 wrote:

Valiantsin, Thanks for the follow up to my initial post. You are way, way better than I. I have no idea what my usatt rating is as I am from uk, but I have only just started playing in the bottom division of my local tt league. I am winning about 50% of my matches though.

My problems I think are multiple, but if it is any help to any other lower standard players like myself. the big thing that made a difference for me, was footwork. I thought I was ok on my feet, but that was when i was 15 when I last played. Now I am 60 I am not as fast on my feet at all. I tend to plant myself for the shot at the start of the rally and I don't anticipate until too late. I have worked hard on this, moving early and try to move back to the centre line without thinking.
For me this has been the thing that has helped the most.
Hello Brands.
For those who is 15 years old it makes sense to make a video of the game and also look and see what is their footwork level.
I am not speaking only about those little mini jumps for more precise adjustment but overall footwork - game without the ball.
It should be patterns of movement, should be some anticipation (it's actually experience + quality of your own shots prior to opponent return) and yes - finally little adjustments.
without last one - still possible to play - bright example is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_8o-QNErsQ&ab_channel=guybr50" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_8o-QNErsQ&ab_channel=guybr50
but without first 2 - no.
Overall Waldner felt the game:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXC8BsxnUig&ab_channel=Pingvincible" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXC8BsxnUig&ab_channel=Pingvincible
This level not sure if can be trained - but proper patterns still exist and good coach can train you them.
Myself have not so many patterns but still using them when not lazy/have enough energy.
2 of them are: 
1) service + 3d ball attack
2) bh + move to fh winner
There are very many other good patterns - but to work on all of them you need to have practice partner (better if it's a coach or coach is somewhere near to look and fix errors) and time.
It's better to work on not so many patterns but to implement them good then to work on many and implement it badly.
IMHO of course.


Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:03am
I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 


-------------
Blade: Hurricane Long 5 FL
FH: D09C max
BH: D09C max


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:27am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 
Mb you are right.
But there exists  low of identity in the logic and to think coherently and to speak with colleagues you need to have proper terminology.
That's why imho it should be video which kinda gives some simple explanation on what is what in some plan like this:
1) Flexion + Extension; Radial + Ulnar Deviation; Pronation + Supination;
2) degree of freedom of movement with and without paddle, what positions of paddle in palm gives what;
3) How it looks on example of BH;
4) What adjustments can be done to manage the ball correctly;
Last point is exactly what you mentioned but without understanding previous 3 it does not make sense - just imagine you are using terms that 90% of people just do not understand.



Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/18/2022 at 10:59am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 1:54am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:00am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 


-------------
Blade: Hurricane Long 5 FL
FH: D09C max
BH: D09C max


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:42am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:47am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.



-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:14am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.


Timos whip and racket head speed produces spin one would think while WLQ speed. 


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

Can you explain in plain language maybe so the masses can understand? Then there can be no confusion. Simples is sometimes best when explaining to a group of people. It woukd help alot more. 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:49am
Supination is already clearly defined in the picture and it is a separate concept from racket angle although it is related. 

If you lean forward your racket becomes more closed and vice versa - if you raise your hand your racket becomes more open and vice versa. 

The racket angle is not just controlled by pronation/supination.....


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 10:37am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

Wang Liqin has a lot of whip in his forehand loop.  Can anyone look at this stroke and say that there isn't whip in the racket?  You can see his racket lagging the stroke on the backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmO_JSMJSns

That Timo Boll uses his whip to power a smaller stroke is part of what I am talking about.  No doubt, one can get a good stroke by being more physical.  But I tend to say that a stroke without some whip is not *optimal* and has some room for visible improvement - it is not about having more whip per se, but about having visible whip.  But maybe I am overthinking it.  What I originally said was that not seeing the relaxed whip in the stroke that Valiantsin is practicing and it seems to me more shoulder driven because I don't see the lag that usually signifies good racket head speed.  His ball quality speaks for itself and is pretty high.  Having more whip in your stroke can add some instability but can improve your racket head speed.




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

You said "With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general", and I'm showing evidence that it's not the case. I didn't say anything about pronation/supination. 


-------------
Blade: Hurricane Long 5 FL
FH: D09C max
BH: D09C max


Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

Wang Liqin has a lot of whip in his forehand loop.  Can anyone look at this stroke and say that there isn't whip in the racket?  You can see his racket lagging the stroke on the backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmO_JSMJSns

That Timo Boll uses his whip to power a smaller stroke is part of what I am talking about.  No doubt, one can get a good stroke by being more physical.  But I tend to say that a stroke without some whip is not *optimal* and has some room for visible improvement - it is not about having more whip per se, but about having visible whip.  But maybe I am overthinking it.  What I originally said was that not seeing the relaxed whip in the stroke that Valiantsin is practicing and it seems to me more shoulder driven because I don't see the lag that usually signifies good racket head speed.  His ball quality speaks for itself and is pretty high.  Having more whip in your stroke can add some instability but can improve your racket head speed.



All top players have some whip. My philosophy on technique is don't worry too much about the forward swing, you just need to keep things relaxed until you're ready to unleash power, generally from the bottom up (legs to waist to shoulder to arm to wrist to fingers). What people usually get wrong, or simply differ, is the backswing. For FH for example, many people don't weight transfer to the hind leg, or don't rotate their waist enough. When you get the backswing right, you'll naturally whip your arm/wrist/etc. during thr forward swing.

A personal example was my BH technique. People kept on telling me that I use too much wrist. I recorded a video of me playing, and felt they were right. I kept on trying to use my arm more, even adding excessive swing from my shoulder to no avail. Then I studied my videos closer and I realized that it was because I kept my elbow too close to the body. Try it, keep your elbow close to your body and you'll have almost no range of motion with your forearm. To add any speed/spin you'd have to use a lot of wrist. Once I fixed that, the forward motion fixed itself. 


-------------
Blade: Hurricane Long 5 FL
FH: D09C max
BH: D09C max


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.

https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ug74t3i4N5E

It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

You said "With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general", and I'm showing evidence that it's not the case. I didn't say anything about pronation/supination. 

I personally also have a closed angle during the backswing, but really when it contacts the ball it is an open angle, and then after that it becomes less open due to the supination.  The reason it looks the way it does is because of the other joints in the body (particularly taking the elbow back) which creates this illusion of a closed bat angle in the beginning when really what matters is the racket angle at contact, and how it is changing during those milliseconds of contact. 

Especially against heavy backspin, sometimes you even need to open it beyond 90 deg (BH face facing upwards) to lift it with ease.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:18pm
With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: dingyibvs
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.

I agree with your view on the wrist, there's no need to actively use the wrist to create quality shots, particularly on the FH. As long as you keep all your joints loose until they're activated sequentially you'll naturally be dragging your wrist and whip it forward just before contact. You can intentionally cock it backward like Timo or Liam and often times ZJK, but guys like WLQ and ML can obviously also create quality shots without it. 

For the BH since you can't use your core nearly as much, the wrist is a bit more important. Even then, you just need to worry about the backswing. You'll naturally develop a comfortable forward swing depending on the timing, location, and your preference re: spin vs speed so long as you sequentially activate your muscles. 


-------------
Blade: Hurricane Long 5 FL
FH: D09C max
BH: D09C max


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/20/2022 at 8:57pm
For both FH an BH strokes I am considering 3 different types of technics. 
They have different biomechanics (starting from legs position and finishing the complex of wrist motions)
 and well distinguished by the following legends (to my mind well - to other minds it can be just confusing :) :) :) ):
1) making pancakes;
2) oared rowing;
3) lifting;
There is an ability to add right or left sidespin to all of them.
All of them suitable for topspins, smashes, drives and blocks.

From my observations - main errors happen when people are trying to mix these biomechanics as their strokes become less consistent 
(too much of additional noise to muscle memory).

"Brushing" is as far as I understood just a radial/ulnar deviation.
Actually it's really difficult (if possible at all) to remove "brushing" when you are really hardhitting the ball - easier to have your wrist slightly tensed than 
over-tensed (in this case you would deal with unnatural tense of the whole arm as it's almost impossible to tense wrist not tensing the upper arm)
or totally relaxed (totally relaxed impossible - your paddle would just be thrown away :) )
So "brushing" happens anyway and the extent of tension is limited by the type of technics (those 3 types) you use and by your legs+body explosion power you apply.
Otherwise if you overbrushing (manually give too much of a relaxation on the joint) - it can lead to pathology and finally lead to some injury.

There is a trade off for a function of (spin, speed, consistency) edge points and this trade off is between the biomechanics types you chose 
and depending that type your paddle will have one or another closed/opened angle and this angle will be changed dynamically on those 20cm which actually is mainly the scattering ellipse 
inside which you actually apply all that exploded power from legs+body through the shoulders/chest/back to the arm and palm finally be it BH or FH hit.

So the main idea - do not try to do something "unnaturally": too relaxed is also unnatural thing and  too tensed as well, all that is in between - is just ok.
You can try make little changes bit by bit and check first of all the health and after that the result of flying of the ball.
The paddle is often times 150-230grams - not so much for grown up, but the biomechanics of motion is going through so called "stretched" or weak positions (as there is no specific muscle stabilizer or the vector of movement sets it to weak position) and thus are risky as can hurt you at any time.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/22/2022 at 10:50am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.

I agree with your view on the wrist, there's no need to actively use the wrist to create quality shots, particularly on the FH. As long as you keep all your joints loose until they're activated sequentially you'll naturally be dragging your wrist and whip it forward just before contact. You can intentionally cock it backward like Timo or Liam and often times ZJK, but guys like WLQ and ML can obviously also create quality shots without it. 

For the BH since you can't use your core nearly as much, the wrist is a bit more important. Even then, you just need to worry about the backswing. You'll naturally develop a comfortable forward swing depending on the timing, location, and your preference re: spin vs speed so long as you sequentially activate your muscles. 

Let me throw some wood on the fire here.  Without any serious concept of whip or wrist usage, can anyone explain why Wang Liqin never achieved the same appearance of two wing dominance/balance that Ma Long or FAN Zhendong or Zhang Jike did?  Was it just a style choice?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/22/2022 at 10:53am
Exhibit A

https://youtu.be/BdDaFGjqUtU" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/BdDaFGjqUtU


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/22/2022 at 11:00am
Exhibit B.

https://youtube.com/shorts/jdhn3uEbmf8?feature=share" rel="nofollow - https://youtube.com/shorts/jdhn3uEbmf8?feature=share


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/22/2022 at 4:45pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFMS58erEvg&ab_channel=skjutmigmormor" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFMS58erEvg&ab_channel=skjutmigmormor
Check the game vs Jang Jike (whose prime was around that time - 1 year till OG championship) do you still think his BH is bad?
Check first set - who won from BH more JJ or WL :) :) ?
The result is WL 4 JJ 2 (while 1 of them is edge ball)
And last point of the whole match JJ lost from BH btw - does not mean anything - just interesting fact.



Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/22/2022 at 6:53pm
FZD's entire stroke structure is based on a lot of wrapping of the ball via pronation (in the FH) and supination (in the BH) and imo is the most advanced topspin technique of the CNT at the moment. Wang Chuqin uses very similar technique too and so does most of the younger generation of CNT (for e.g. Lin Shidong). 

In fact if you look at his FH loop, during the backswing there is a brief period where he supinates the arm to allow for max room to pronate during the stroke which is why you can see the blade angle changing like a magician when the blade is about to start swinging forward. It is this pronation/supination mechanism which contributes to the complexity in FZD's strokes as compared to older gen CNT players like Wang Liqin. 

So it does appear that there's a lot of changing racket angles in his stroke (it is not so "constant" as the older players - NextLevel's slowmo demonstrates the key difference between his and WLQ's strokes). Wang Liqin doesn't even use much pronation/supination for the most part - only a bit. 

FZD even intentionally designs his stroke to take advantage of the pronation/supination mechanism - you'll notice that the bat is not completely horizontal but slightly upwards and forwards during contact - it is only in this angle which allows for the pronation/supination to coincide with the direction of the finger power to direct the force forwards/downwards 

One very simple test to show what I'm talking about - hold your forearm completely still (with only wrist allowed to move) while holding a bat. Try as you might, you cannot change the racket angle with the wrist alone without rotating your forearm - the wrist can only move up/down via radial/ulnar deviation or backwards/forwards via flexion/extension both which don't change the racket angle. 

Also with this test, you can test the power of the 2 mechanisms of the wrist vs forearm pronation/supination in this instance without help from the rest of the body. You will notice that it's not even in the same order of magnitude (the amount of force you can generate via wrist vs forearm pronation/supination). 

The biggest advantage of forearm pronation/supination is this - you can generate a lot of "secret" power even without much body involvement which is incredibly advantageous when the ball is not what you anticipated and you're in a bad position. This is even more key in close table situations (for e.g. FH flick or BH chiquita) where you can't always use your body optimally due to the table being in the way.  


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/22/2022 at 11:00pm
The simplest way I can tell it is a wrist problem and not really a supination problem is to look at the many great backhands that don't supinate (Karaksevic).  But I am okay as long as people accept that backhand only survived because Wang Liqin was an amazing athlete and that there is something technically inadequate about it.  For me, the backswing is clearly not good enough.  And in my opinion you can't improve it by speaking purely in terms of supination and pronation.  But others may disagree,  there is a reason why you never saw Wang Liqin doing a banana

Not saying that Valiantsin has the same problem as he has better technique but that the wrist is not just all pronation and supination. I know you all know this, it is just about degree.  But anyone saying that Wang Liqin is not using his body would be laughed at.  But it is clear to us that something is missing from that stroke.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 1:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The simplest way I can tell it is a wrist problem and not really a supination problem is to look at the many great backhands that don't supinate (Karaksevic).  But I am okay as long as people accept that backhand only survived because Wang Liqin was an amazing athlete and that there is something technically inadequate about it.  For me, the backswing is clearly not good enough.  And in my opinion you can't improve it by speaking purely in terms of supination and pronation.  But others may disagree,  there is a reason why you never saw Wang Liqin doing a banana

Not saying that Valiantsin has the same problem as he has better technique but that the wrist is not just all pronation and supination. I know you all know this, it is just about degree.  But anyone saying that Wang Liqin is not using his body would be laughed at.  But it is clear to us that something is missing from that stroke.
Not sure what you're looking at, but Karakasevic has an amazing supinating BH and so does Kreanga - you can see from all the slowmos






-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 1:48am
You can see in the slow motion video below how much the forearm is rotating forcefully about the axis of the forearm itself (forearm supination). This is also much more easily achieved in a position when the wrist is slightly in flexion. If you notice, the same thing is happening during the FH loop - a forceful pronation (you can see clearly the sudden acceleration it is causing even in slowmo) while the wrist is in slight extension.



-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 2:40am
Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:09am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:32am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?

https://youtu.be/wwtn8qgTTeY?t=66" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wwtn8qgTTeY?t=66

So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...


blahness, so based on this would it be fair to say that the vast majority of club players use supination on the BH with the rare case being something like a Seemiller grip?


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?

https://youtu.be/wwtn8qgTTeY?t=66" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wwtn8qgTTeY?t=66

So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.



Yes all 3 are pronation - it's a visual illusion.

It's easy, with the racket in hand, put it very low with the FH face facing the ground. Without moving your wrist at all or pronating/supinating, use your shoulder to move it up so that the racket is above your head. 

What happens to the racket angle? You'll find that the FH face is already facing the sky without any pronation/supination business. This proves that racket angle is not only determined by pronation/supination. 

However, say if one does the exact same shoulder/arm movement, the FH face is not facing the sky but facing forward, then he must have pronated to reach that position. 

To judge accurately, you have to first replicate the body, hand and upper arm position and do it without any pronation/supination - then compare the finishing position racket angle with the picture, to truly eliminate all other factors and thus isolate the effect of pronation/supination on the racket angle.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...


blahness, so based on this would it be fair to say that the vast majority of club players use supination on the BH with the rare case being something like a Seemiller grip?

Not necessarily. I would say based on USATT ratings the majority of 2000+ level loopers will be using some of it - and they will call it "wrist movement". However better players will understand it better for sure. 

I too was taught this by my ex provincial player friend. It was a game changer for me because pronation/supination is the most effective way to do a forceful spin of the ball which is especially important in looping awkward balls. With this knowledge, you can loop heavy underspin balls with this mechanism alone without any body usage at all, any additional body usage will simply be directed to increase the quality and power. You no longer have to do a 120% effort loop to overcome incoming spin, you can do it with 20%, 50%, 75%, 100% effort whichever is most comfortable for the situation.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: longrange
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 7:43pm
Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".

I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist.

So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0H89WfDsA&t=163s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0H89WfDsA&t=163s
after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgsMc8u4mI&t=375s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgsMc8u4mI&t=375s
Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it.

So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm.

Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep.

I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?

https://youtu.be/wwtn8qgTTeY?t=66" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wwtn8qgTTeY?t=66

So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.



Yes all 3 are pronation - it's a visual illusion.

It's easy, with the racket in hand, put it very low with the FH face facing the ground. Without moving your wrist at all or pronating/supinating, use your shoulder to move it up so that the racket is above your head. 

What happens to the racket angle? You'll find that the FH face is already facing the sky without any pronation/supination business. This proves that racket angle is not only determined by pronation/supination. 

However, say if one does the exact same shoulder/arm movement, the FH face is not facing the sky but facing forward, then he must have pronated to reach that position. 

To judge accurately, you have to first replicate the body, hand and upper arm position and do it without any pronation/supination - then compare the finishing position racket angle with the picture, to truly eliminate all other factors and thus isolate the effect of pronation/supination on the racket angle.

Can you find a video that illustrates what you are trying to point out?  I can't make sense of your example/experiment. 


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:07pm
Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".

I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist.

So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0H89WfDsA&t=163s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0H89WfDsA&t=163s
after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgsMc8u4mI&t=375s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgsMc8u4mI&t=375s
Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it.

So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm.

Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep.

I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.

Awesome that the shot is working for you.  Ultimately that is the most important thing.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Good day, gentlemen. I was following the discussion and last week I tried to reproduce this "modern backhand".

I'm used to play the "classical" thing on bh: be it chiquita or normal topspin. Being no specialist in biomechanics and googling pictures on the web, I'd characterize the motion as from flexed/ulnary deviated/supinated to extened/radially deviated/supinated, i.e. closed racket from beginning to end and the spin is produced largely by the wrist.

So, coincidentally together with this thread I've stumbled upon a japanese video devoted to the topic and at first tried to reproduce the thing from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0H89WfDsA&t=163s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD0H89WfDsA&t=163s
after like 10 strokes ...it made absolutely no sense to me. I couldn't even hit the ball (I have the same problem when trying to hit loopy backhand, what my coach calls a "classic european topspin": it's difficult to connect the vertical motion of the racket and the trajectory of the ball: thin brushing contact and all that. I am more comfortable with hitting into the ball through the sponge). Then it clicked to me that the thing can be easier built on top of this technique:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgsMc8u4mI&t=375s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgsMc8u4mI&t=375s
Here it's like a flip: mostly pure supination (I guess it is called supination). Now, this is very easy to perform: you wait for the ball and hit it.

So, coming back to this "modern" loop technique you hit the ball from below (yes, Yokoyama does not do quite like that but his racket is very open, practically vertical at contact), but unlike in the latter video you don't supinate (pronated to supinated position) and I would characterize the wrist motion as ulnary deviated -> radially deviated, but without extension (flexed->extended), and therefore without this characteristic "leaf" shape of the hand-wrist. This shape is in fact impossible to achieve with this technique: the wrist is locked somehow. The spin is generated largely by the forearm.

Now could I notice any profit during just one session? I asked my coach to serve his toughest underspin serve, which normally I have troubles with: using my normal technique with closed racket I can overcome the backspin, but depending on where the ball lands on my side of the table I have to adjust my position at the table — I have to backpedal if the ball lands close to the white line. So, taking this into account I'd say 50% is my success rate vs this service. Using the new technique it was something like 80-90% and I didn't have to adjust my position whatsoever even if the ball landed deep.

I must say that before that I tried to copy what I think Harimoto does. At least in my mind it's something in between the two: short stroke, some supination, some wrist, a little forearm—and it was already more stable than the classical wristy backhand. But this exercise helped me articulate the difference in techniques.

My BH is actually incredibly similar to video no.2 - but against balls I want to add a lot of spin too it will look more like the 1st video. Sometimes against even heavier underspin, you'll even need to finish higher (shoulder height), but the concept is the same - hitting into the ball with an open racket angle rather than trying to brute force brush the ball (classical BH technique)


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.

Just imitate the exact hand, elbow position along his trajectory and you'll see that his racket angle is more closed compared to what it should be had he not supinated. Sometimes he doesn't supinate on opening loops and it results in a much less spinny ball which opponents will dump in the net if they don't read it properly.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 12/23/2022 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Okay, I think I understand what you are trying to say.   It was the point I made when I said that pronation and supination happen coincidentally on a variety of strokes.  So what joint are you looking at when you claim supination is the key?  Shoulder?  Elbow? Wrist? Or something else?

It is the forearm supination (forearm rotating about its own axis)
Okay.  So what is the visible evidence of supination in the backhand on Karaksevic?  And what is the evidence of pronation of the forearm on example 1 in the video I shared previously?

I can show the visible evidence of wrist deviation on Fan's stroke if anyone wants to check it.

Just imitate the exact hand, elbow position along his trajectory and you'll see that his racket angle is more closed compared to what it should be had he not supinated. Sometimes he doesn't supinate on opening loops and it results in a much less spinny ball which opponents will dump in the net if they don't read it properly.

If this is the best you can do, we aren't going to agree on this, I can not backhands that show he is not supinating.

I also cannot hit forehand one in the video I linked to without supinating.



-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: C1
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...



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