Tensor and high tension the same?
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Topic: Tensor and high tension the same?
Posted By: ????
Subject: Tensor and high tension the same?
Date Posted: 01/27/2007 at 8:46pm
| does tensor just mean alot of tension is built into the rubber like high tension? Some rubbers ive noticed have tensor written on them while others are said to have alot of tension built in but tensor is not written on them. Is this just the different ways equipment brands advertise or is there actually a difference? |
Replies:
Posted By: shij421
Date Posted: 01/28/2007 at 12:41am
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butterfly high tensioned rubbers such as bryce and cermet are not the same as the tensor rubbers (xtend, the andros, etc.) Bryce and cermet are better off with speedglue, while tensor rubbers shouldn't be glued. Correct me if I'm wrong, but bryce and cermet are high tensioned in the topsheet?
------------- Violin FL Tenergy 05 2.1 Black Tenergy 05 FX 2.1 Red |
Posted By: ????
Date Posted: 01/28/2007 at 5:20am
| ya im guessing they are because butterfly says the sponge hardness for bryce is 35 degrees (maybe different brands have different degree ratings) which is extremely soft so the topsheet must be harder considering bryce is very fast |
Posted By: sverige
Date Posted: 01/28/2007 at 8:43am
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yes, high- tension is in the topsheet. ------------- Donic J-O Waldner Carbon Senso Donic J-O Waldner red 2,3(bh) DHS Hurricane 3 black 2,2(fh) |
Posted By: sprite
Date Posted: 01/28/2007 at 1:17pm
|
Actually the Bryce top sheet is soft, and the "high tension" is achieved by using a high modulus sponge. It is the "tensor" sheets which use a stressed, i.e. "tensioned" top- sheet, which is why they wear out so quickly. ------------- YEO Boost TP |
Posted By: shij421
Date Posted: 01/28/2007 at 1:21pm
|
"High Tension rubbers have tension built in
to the sponge and top-sheet. This helps reduce
the amount of energy lost at the point of impact.
In essence, it turns the speed of your opponents
shot into additional power for you. In short,
High Tension rubbers are fast, VERY FAST. The
first such rubber was Bryce, introduced in 1997.
It is by far the most widely used rubber among
Butterfly�s sponsored players including
the 2003 World Champion, Werner Schlager(AUT)." - Butterflyonline.com ------------- Violin FL Tenergy 05 2.1 Black Tenergy 05 FX 2.1 Red |
Posted By: Carbon TT
Date Posted: 01/29/2007 at 12:27pm
|
High tension such as BTY's works by increasing the strength of the molecular bonds between the individual rubber molecules in the topsheet. Tensor works by applying a stretched normal topsheet to a soft sponge to create that bouncyness. ------------- Primorac Carbon MX-P | EL-P |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 02/01/2007 at 3:20pm
|
Wow, this topic went flameing at DTTW a while ago. I found this information, in french, translated by google, so read and enjoy =)
1. The STORAGE Of ENERGY About what is it? The required goal is �to dope� the coating so that it stores energy (�storage of energy�) during manufacture so that it becomes at the same time more elastic and to tend more, but so similar to a coating stuck with fast adhesive. The difference is that this effect �sticks fast� is definitively integrated into the coating. Which are various existing technologies? Technology with storage of energy appeared for the first time in 1999. Currently, you will find these coatings under names, following: � TENSOR (BANCO, JOOLA, ANDRO�) � D. TECS, SPI (TIBHAR) � FORMULATED (DONIC) � HIGH TENSION (BUTTERFLY) For all these technologies, the tension integrated into the coating can vary in intensity according to the required goal. One can apply the tension to foam, but also to rubber. These technologies evolve/move unceasingly worms of the increasingly strong integrated tensions and we arrived today, in particular with the 2nd generation of coatings TENSOR, with the limit of what rubber or foam can support. Coatings with storage of energy and fast adhesive Generally, these coatings were not designed to be stuck with fast adhesive. But certain players seek always more elasticity and the fast adhesive is very largely widespread today among the users of coatings with storage of energy. Its use then increases the effect of tension already present in the coating. But some of these coating already �doped� to the maximum and do not support any more the addition of the fast adhesive, one can then see appearing cracks in the coating or of the barbs which fall apart of foam. We thus advise you scrupulously to respect our indications and those of the manufacturers as for the possibility of using these coating with fast adhesive. 2. COATINGS �ADDITIVES� A AIR! How does that function? One can for a long time reproduce the effect �sticks fast� in an artisanal way. Indeed while plunging any coating in an atmosphere under high pressure, the cells of foam �inflate� at the end of a few hours. One then obtains a coating similar to that stuck with fast adhesive: even its at the time of the play, even characteristic of elasticity! The disadvantage is that this coating finds at the end of a few hours its starting characteristics, as the pressure decreases inside the coating. POWER SPONGE (BUTTERFLY) SPEED TUNED (DONIC) TUNED (TIBHAR) Recently, a manufacturer developed a new technology being based on this principle and which �dopes� the traditional coatings. The innovation, it is that from now on the pressure does not decrease any more at the end of a few hours but only at the end of a few weeks. Some marks propose today their coatings treated with this process; they are thus perfectly in conformity with the new payment of the ITTF, since they do not use any adhesive! Constraints So that the pressure inside foam remains maximum, the coating must be preserved in its special packing under pressure. Once left, this pressure decreases in a slow and progressive way to disappear completely at the end of a few weeks. You find your traditional coating then. To prolong this pressure, it is highly recommended to preserve your racket under pressure, in a packing especially conceived for that. You must then �inflate� this packing with air to maintain inside there a pressure higher than the normal. Compatible with the fast adhesive? These coatings, already �doped� with the air, can moreover be stuck with fast adhesive. That increases still considerably their elasticity and their effect of catapult-launching. Now, that was Tensor as a replacement to speedglue, if I understood it correctly. The Tensor itself is described as follows: ABOUT WHAT IS it? Process TENSOR developed by ESN, a company of high technology, consists in introducing between the chains of rubber molecules, a substance which acts as a spring. This one draws aside the rubber molecules and thus maintains a tension continual very similar to what occurs with the molecules from the vapors from solvent from a fast adhesive. While measuring the elasticity of rubber and foam, one arrives at values much higher. Thanks to this process, foam becomes more tender from 5 to 8 degrees, and more rubber band. For the first time, a coating becomes at the same time faster with more control! Incredible but� true! ITS CHARACTERISTICS 1 - The sound: The coatings with storage of energy produce the same sound during the striking of ball as the coatings stuck with fast adhesive! Whereas the adhesive could only �dope� foam, technology TENSOR is also applicable to rubber and produces the same effects: more elasticity for more control. One will thus find coatings which one will have applied technology TENSOR only to foam, and others where it will be applied to foam and rubber. In the first case, the coatings will tend to want �to roll itself� (exactly as when you use fast adhesive!), and in the second case, the coating will be presented flat because the 2 parts are doped. 2 - Which difference with a normal coating stuck with fast adhesive? The coatings with storage of energy produce the same sound that a stuck normal coating, and have a similar dynamics. But it would be false to say that they have the same characteristics exactly. The coatings with storage of energy have their own characteristics. To tend more and more control The coatings are more tender than the normal coatings, but their foam has 10% more elasticity. From where a considerable improvement of the control of ball. But it is possible that the �gluer� does not find completely the same speed there. Power on �request� What differentiates more the one coating with storage of energy from a traditional coating, is its capacity to restore �with the request� its energy. When you block passively, the coating absorbs more energy of the ball and you can slow down and control easily the play. On the other hand, when you block more actively, the coating releases all its energy and allows a good acceleration. This is one of the great advantages of coatings TENSOR. Sorry for the awful long posting, but I hopes this information brings knowledge to this forum! ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: tthj2
Date Posted: 02/01/2007 at 8:15pm
|
I use Yasaka New Era rubber that is supposed to be a tensor rubber. The sponge is hard but the top sheet seem flexible and the net result is that sheet is not fast at all which is consistent with the speed rating given to the rubber. Does anyone know of any other tensor rubber with similar characteristics.
Ted ------------- Ted |
Posted By: wfwfitz
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 12:33am
|
I also used the new Era speed and found it played much better glued than unglued. ------------- Wfwfitz Xiom Axelo Xiom Sigma Pro Red and Black Butterfly Amultart Tenergy 05 Black and Red 64 |
Posted By: TT_Freak
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 5:30am
|
No they are not the same, if Bryce was playable without speedglue it'd say so.
------------- Violin F1 Actor 10g at 3 and 9 10g at 12 20g at the end of handle |
Posted By: tthj2
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 12:02pm
|
I find New Era to have good control blocking and driving thorough loops but I do have to work to put some speed behind it. I will try to counter loop with it and see how it works. With New Era I am finding I have to take big swings or the ball won't go too far but I can use less power because the placement is better.
Do you find tension rubbers such as Bryce to be much better than let's say a sriver. I assumed you can use smaller swings and get good speed and spin. How do you find Bryce controlwise and do you find big difference with speed glue and regular glue?
Ted ------------- Ted |
Posted By: TT_Freak
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 7:46pm
|
Bryce must be used with speedglue or it isn't worth the money, and no with Bryce anything less than a confident swing at the ball will result in a low quality shot.
------------- Violin F1 Actor 10g at 3 and 9 10g at 12 20g at the end of handle |
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 8:08pm
| thats not true, Bryce is fine without speed glue. |
Posted By: TT_Freak
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 8:11pm
|
You can get better performance in all aspects in cheaper rubbers if you don't speedglue, such as Hammond X, Green Power and F1.
------------- Violin F1 Actor 10g at 3 and 9 10g at 12 20g at the end of handle |
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 9:54pm
| you probably dont know how to handle bryce. Shots has to be very delicate on bryce ( unglued ) to get its performance... and for that, not many people are able of. Thats why most people dont like to use bryce unglued. |
Posted By: tthj2
Date Posted: 02/02/2007 at 10:36pm
|
Could it be that if a handful of rubber sheets are examined the matter of gluing is a more important factor and not whether it is tensor or not.
If that's the case it may be better off with cheaper sheets and speed glue until the speed glue ban kicks in. However, this will become moot in 2008.
Soon the default situation will be with no speed glue and it could change many equations in terms of rubber and blade selection and perhaps technique. I think it will be interesting.
Ted
------------- Ted |
Posted By: TT_Freak
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 6:03am
|
...What? You do realise that Bryce like Hurricane 3 is meant to be dripping with speedglue? Thats the entire point of rubbers that are made for professional use. At least with H3 it can be reasonable if you stick to the table, but Bryce will simply be an overpriced slab thats outperformed in all aspects without the benefit of speedglue.
------------- Violin F1 Actor 10g at 3 and 9 10g at 12 20g at the end of handle |
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 10:09am
| Unglued, Hurricane 3 cannot be compared to bryce, Bryce is definately more powerful than Hurricane 3 in both speed and spin. The only bad thing about Bryce is its price... the price cause alot of people hated it. BUT dont forget, it might be expensive, it also last longer. |
Posted By: D4VOW
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 10:33am
Here we go again  ------------- Blade:Stiga Offensive Classic (FL-Master) FH:Stiga Boost TC (2.0) BH:Stiga Boost TC (2.0) |
adambty wrote:Posted By: TT_Freak
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 10:57am
|
So, Adam. Are you saying that your serves and pushes are spinnier with Bryce than with Hurricane 3?
------------- Violin F1 Actor 10g at 3 and 9 10g at 12 20g at the end of handle |
Posted By: Jolan
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 12:42pm
Dear TT freak. I admire your boldness. I suppose you know you are leading to a dead end flaming war. It is still time to retire with dignified disdain and let this place as peaceful as it is... ------------- Joola Wyzaryz Freeze Vega pro 2.0mm Vega intro 2.0mm Blade collection : https://photos.app.goo.gl/PrgCu5ib5RnhVXTn9" rel="nofollow - https://photos.app.goo.gl/PrgCu5ib5RnhVXTn9 |
Posted By: *JC*
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 4:41pm
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oh sh*t, i think someone devided by zero and created a time paradox..... parrelle universe, etc.... im something quite simlair to this happened at dttw PS: i dont mean to brag, but i picked adambty being ken at least 3 months ago.... ------------- Thats not a knife THIS is a knife. Thats not a knife THATS a spoon. |
Posted By: fatcomet
Date Posted: 02/03/2007 at 8:18pm
that reminds me... im gonna go chew some gum right now
|
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 12:51am
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ttfreak, yes you can get spinner shots from bryce compared to hurricane if you strike the ball at the right angle and velocity.
-------
for those who has yet to get involved in this discussion, as you can see now who is trying to stir up problems in this harmless discussion... I am just posting my views. Just look at how JC, jcdi and the rest of the DTTW forumers jumping in to make fun of someone who has different opionion than them. Luckily they are not moderators here.
|
Posted By: D4VOW
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 2:05pm
Having your opinion is fine. The problem is that you don't allow anybody else to have their opinion, constantly going on about how great Bryce is and putting down anybody that says otherwise. Bryce may be good for you but it isn't good for everybody. Stop destroying threads with your constant barrage of trash. ------------- Blade:Stiga Offensive Classic (FL-Master) FH:Stiga Boost TC (2.0) BH:Stiga Boost TC (2.0) |
Posted By: ????
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 4:13pm
| i would imagine bryce is better at spin for fast shots and the hurricane 3 better spin at slow shots like serves, pushes. Although maybe bryce could be just as good or better on serves on an extremely fast swinging motion. Im not sure, this is just a guess. But i also hear that the chinese are taught particular motions to get maximum spin out of these tacky rubbers on fast shots too. What kind of motion is this for a forehand loop for example, just of curiosity, i dont play with chinse rubber. |
Posted By: *JC*
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 4:41pm
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ken/adam/wtf your not so much lucky that we are not moderators here........ you are lucky here that the moderators dont make much impact here, and dont have such itchy trigger fingers as the dttw mods have ( and imho a itchy trigger finger is a good thing to have ) ------------- Thats not a knife THIS is a knife. Thats not a knife THATS a spoon. |
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 7:05pm
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D4VOW, since when I do not allow others to have their own opinion. If others give their opinion I am fine. I am just give my opinion just like everyone else...
Opinion 1: Hurricane is spinner than Bryce
Opinion 2: Bryce is spinner than Hurricane
Why is it Opinion 1 is fine and Opinion 2 is a trash ? If you think Opinion 2 is trash, share your opinion why it is a trash, instead of personal attacks.
JC, what is wtf means ?
I hope with these few posting from JC the DTTW moderators and some of his friends, I hope will see clearly who is the real troublemaker.
Now back to the topic, Let me explain in more details...
Even though Bryce topsheet is less grippy compared Hurricane... it is very hard to spin Hurricane at high speed... it will tend to pull ball higher and further because ball tends to stick harder to the rubber, chances it will miss the table if swing too fast.
It is different for Bryce, although Bryce also have a grippy surface, when you hit at high speed... ball do not get stuck as hard as Hurricane, the ball will sink-in slightly because of its softer sponge, it will leave the blade quickly with the springy effect of its sponge, it will be just nice to impart a high spin ball ( due to your high speed swing ) which will land on the table much easier.
Most people are afraid to swing too fast on a ball, if you have bryce do have a try at different angle towards Bryce and see the result.
|
Posted By: YATTP
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 7:32pm
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If you like unglued Bryce it's OK. I'm sure that you are not alone with this opinion, but you have to accept the fact that most players who play on a competitive level use speed glue for a very good reason. The characteristics of speed glued Bryce and unglued Bryce are *so* different that there is no point in comparing them. In TT you can be good with anything as long as it's good for your game. |
Posted By: Leeroy
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 7:40pm
hmmm...that actually tells much...
I had to quote that before it got deleted or edited...
To the topic, I see what your on about adambty. I have played with both Hurricanes and Bryce glued up. Hurricane can be "harder" to handle in more ways than one because of that resistance, but because of that resistance potentially can do more than Bryce. Not taking anything away from Bryce, they are both good rubbers.
I felt like I couldn't miss a loop with Bryce glued up on a Primorac Carbon, but it felt like potentially Hurricanes can do more but harder to handle.
------------- Blade: Galaxy U4 BH: DHS H2 (orange) FH: DHS G666 or 729 40H German ESN http://www.myspace.com/leethedream |
Posted By: sprite
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 7:46pm
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It seems to me that there are two problems with adam's posts, namely jc and D4VOW.
------------- YEO Boost TP |
Posted By: *JC*
Date Posted: 02/04/2007 at 8:00pm
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oh ffs, not you again. and, adam/kenn http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wtf ------------- Thats not a knife THIS is a knife. Thats not a knife THATS a spoon. |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 02/12/2007 at 5:45pm
Might as well make that 3 problems, cause you can count me in on it. Note: I have never tried Bryce but the majority of all the forums I have attended claims that Bryce needs glue to work, without glue it's simply rubbish. Are they all wrong? Should we trust Adambty who claims that he alone have found the magic way of using it and that the rest should learn his techniq to master the un glued Bryce? I doubt it. If it work's for him, then that's fine for him but I for one would take the word of the majority instead of his. Everyone who has ever used speedglue on pretty much any rubber know's what it does, so claiming that Bryce or anything else (exept some of the newer powersponges) works great without glue is either utterly rubbish or proof that the person making the claim has never used speedglue. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 02/12/2007 at 5:53pm
Actually, it's not. The Yasaka page writes this about the rubber: NEW ERA is a high-tech product consisting of Latent Energy Inside. We use a new revolutionary glueing technique to put top sheet rubber and the sponge together. It keeps the rubber and the sponge in a constantly expanded form. Latent energy inside and loads of BS off course, as always when marketing something but they do not claim it's a Tensor. Why? Look further up at my wall of text, there is a explanation... ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/12/2007 at 6:41pm
Speedplay, its not about who is wrong or right, its about rights of a person to present his opinion. If "majority" says opinion "A", does it mean that nobody else can say opinion "B" ?
Just like in the past, "majority" says that the earth is flat and suddenly a second opinion says that the earth is not flat ? so the "majority" is always right, nobody is allowed to say that the earth is not flat.
Sometimes the "majority" is made up of people in power, the rest are just followers who make up the "majority". Nobody is right or wrong, they are just opinions... Opinion A,Opinion B, Opinion C... etc
By the way, what makes you say that I have never used Speedglue ?
|
Posted By: *JC*
Date Posted: 02/12/2007 at 10:44pm
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Adam, you fool. Have you not ever seen a map. Does it look round? no. If the earth was not flat, we would all just fall off. Globes are made round for convenience sake. So instead of having to to look all over a map, you can just spin it around, it also is designed like this to take up less room. Haha, and i thought your bryce issue was bad. lmao earth not flat. Your kidding right? I Just put a ruler down on the ground and you know what, it seemed pretty flat to me. However, just to be sure, i sent my friend in america an email, and asked him if he was upside down. Turns out he was standing upright too. Fancy that. geeze, some people need to go to school and do geometry. ____ = Flat O = Circle ------------- Thats not a knife THIS is a knife. Thats not a knife THATS a spoon. |
Posted By: Leeroy
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 12:35am
|
{EDIT} Deleting incorrect quotation. Same post next with the correct quotation. Must quote before gets edited  . ------------- Blade: Galaxy U4 BH: DHS H2 (orange) FH: DHS G666 or 729 40H German ESN http://www.myspace.com/leethedream |
Posted By: Leeroy
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 12:38am
JC, adambty is refering to a piece of history in which, I think Capernous (I know spelling of name wrong), a Polish astronomer, came to the discovery that the earth was round. At "that time" people thought the world was flat and everyone dogged Capernous theory on the earth being round. He was refering to a point in time or history
 .Ok let me bring it to this time a little more for ya JC. It is like Maccas. A "large" majority would choose Maccas as the premier restaurant. But the burgers are better at Hungry Jacks (or Burger King). So the majority is wrong in this case..
Saying that I don't like Bryce as the premier rubber prob like the majority
 . Also noting I have seen some players kick butt with Bryce unglued. But every rubber is better with glue no doubt. I have played a couple of players having Bryce unglued and they have done quite allright with it. But Bryce glued is better no doubt. How much I didn't know. I played with a bat with Bryce both sides, one side glued and other not on a Joola Kool. I had it my hand but only tried it for like 1 miunte and only did forehand loops with the glued side . Spewing I didn't try the unglued side. The guy mentioned he didn't like the fact that the glue effect diminished on one side...I would say that 729 40S Jap on a 9010 carbon blade is the best backhand combo, but everyone will laugh at me if I did
.Oh and 40S Jap speed glued is a monster on that blade
. It goes from Lou Ferigino non hulk version to Lou Ferigino green hulk version .------------- Blade: Galaxy U4 BH: DHS H2 (orange) FH: DHS G666 or 729 40H German ESN http://www.myspace.com/leethedream |
Posted By: *JC*
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 1:40am
|
yes, im quite awear of that event leeroy. Sailers scared they might sail off the edge of the earth and such, etc. I also am not that fond of bryce, glued or unglued. I much prefer Sriver. I also thought your BK / Maccas thing was quite well done. While, adam/kens main point is that bryce is brilliant with out glue And while i accept that yes - some people might like bryce with no glue There is no way such a combination should be recomended to every player. PS: he also talks a lot of sh*t, mostly sh*t. Infact, all sh*t. ------------- Thats not a knife THIS is a knife. Thats not a knife THATS a spoon. |
Posted By: adambty
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 4:54am
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I hope everyone gets the point now, it is not about who is right or who is wrong. It is about everyone should be allowed to state their opinion freely. Opinion should not be dictated by a group of people.
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Posted By: fatcomet
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 8:23am
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so is there a consensus?? tensor =/= high tension just for the record etc |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 11:35am
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@Adambty, the reason I claim that you haven't used speed glue is in my previous post, cause if you had, you would know that Bryce and any other rubber pre-powersponges and that stuff, works much better with glue. Sure, as a noob the speed and spin might be easier to handle with out the glue effect, but that's another story. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: creeder06
Date Posted: 02/13/2007 at 1:31pm
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yeah long live the bryce is better unglued than hurricane II glued
best macho libre voice bryce is that best, no it fantastic!! ------------- if table tennis is to sports, what star wars is to movies, then you must be chewbacca. |