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Science of tacky rubbers

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    Posted: 09/17/2019 at 5:56am
Anyone knows the science behind the tackiness of a rubber? Just interested to know...
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Tacky rubber lover :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote firetack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 5:59am
Tackifiers in rubber mix
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 6:18am
I touched upon it briefly. Basically, a tacky topsheet is comprised of 2 layers, with a tacky layer, called "蓋膠", literally "cover rubber", on top of an elastic layer.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 2:31pm
It's hard to discern in black but it's apparent in red.

H3 Commercial
https://www.guoqiuhui.net/Home/Goods/details/goods_id/815
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 9:39pm
Is this legal or not? do the rules allow that design?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 1:32am
Not if we go strictly by the book. But after ITTF's/Sharara's green-lighting factory boosting, their interpretation trumps everything. I guess their response would be it's considered a single layer if it's done at the factory level.

Quote 2.4.3.1 Ordinary pimpled rubber is a single layer of non-cellular rubber, natural or synthetic, with pimples evenly distributed over its surface at a density of not less than 10 per cm² and not more than 30 per cm²
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 3:58am
Here is my question... is that top layer just treated with some chemicals to make it so different from bottom layer or is there a process where the two come together?

To me top layer looks like it varies in thickness throughout so im thinking it is a single layer that is treated chemically to make it that way?...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 6:31am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Not if we go strictly by the book. But after ITTF's/Sharara's green-lighting factory boosting, their interpretation trumps everything. I guess their response would be it's considered a single layer if it's done at the factory level.

Quote 2.4.3.1 Ordinary pimpled rubber is a single layer of non-cellular rubber, natural or synthetic, with pimples evenly distributed over its surface at a density of not less than 10 per cm² and not more than 30 per cm²
lol
what an embarrassment again, maybe not, it’s a lot of more head scratching to me for sure; decades into the practice, dhs & friends are exposed. Maybe nobody cares. Ittf can’t say “sorry we overlooked that” and so they’ll be forced to go with your interpretation.

“What’s the big deal you big drama queens? Just go play.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

lol
what an embarrassment again, maybe not, it’s a lot of more head scratching to me for sure; decades into the practice, dhs & friends are exposed. Maybe nobody cares. Ittf can’t say “sorry we overlooked that” and so they’ll be forced to go with your interpretation.

“What’s the big deal you big drama queens? Just go play.”

Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Here is my question... is that top layer just treated with some chemicals to make it so different from bottom layer or is there a process where the two come together?

To me top layer looks like it varies in thickness throughout so im thinking it is a single layer that is treated chemically to make it that way?...


Below is an illustration from an article on the testing of table tennis rubber published in 2001 by the RITC that invented the tacky rubber. In the description it's clearly stated there are 2 layers, where the top layer is roughly .15-.2mm thick, tacky and lower in strength, and the base layer is .5mm thick and more elastic.



From what I could gather so far, that top layer is created from intentional undercure during vulcanization. To achieve that, the top layer should have a different formula that requires a higher temperature or longer duration to cure than the base layer.

Another way to create tacky rubber is through the use of tackifier as stated above. The tackifier is added to the compound before vulcanization.

Various reviews and sellers in China state that the German-made Tibhar Hybrid K1 series is made without "cover rubber." But from the pictures, K1 and K2 appear otherwise.

K1
https://www.guoqiuhui.net/Home/Goods/details/goods_id/2696


K2
https://www.guoqiuhui.net/Home/Goods/details/goods_id/2967
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Here is my question... is that top layer just treated with some chemicals to make it so different from bottom layer or is there a process where the two come together?

To me top layer looks like it varies in thickness throughout so im thinking it is a single layer that is treated chemically to make it that way?...



Various reviews and sellers in China state that the German-made Tibhar Hybrid K1 series is made without "cover rubber." But from the pictures, K1 and K2 appear otherwise.



Thanks for the detailed explanation,

maybe its possible they are trying to curb tibhar sales in china to protect their own markets... or they think this time around europeans couldnt do something the chinese have been doing for years... copying others.
SFP BE FL 82g | H3 Neo 2.15 + FTL | Aurus Select 2.1
SFP BE AN 82g | 2x Aurus Prime 2.1
TB ALC ST 84g | 2x Rozena 2.1

For Sale: Hadraw VK FL 82g, Rapid Carbon Light AN 72g... PM ME!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 7:30pm
Maybe this is the reason why rubber packages describes about vulcanization process because 2 layers are joined together?? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 11:57pm
few H3 we could peel that layer off.
The rest of H3, you couldn't find where it is. Assume that the H3 you are buying and playing is ITTF legal.
Try to peel that layer off in you cut piece and see what I meant in many posts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Simas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2019 at 5:48pm
an excerpt from thoughtsontabletennis blog (blog unavailable for some time...) about tacky rubbers:

3. What makes a rubber tacky and how does it work?
Remembering the article on rubber chemistry, we know that the rubber consists of long polymers. We imagined them as long chains and in the boosting case we saw that we wanted to stretch them.
We made a short remark on entropic elasticity. These bulky words just say that a polymers chain would never stretch itself. On the contrary it wants to clew itself to a fuzzy ball.
The reason for this goes back to the second law of thermodynamics, which roughly says that the disorder of all things in the universe increases. The measure of this disorder is called entropy. The next time you have to clean something just remember, the universe doesn’t want it properly arranged and clean anyway ;).
Back to the rubber. If you stretch the rubber it’s entropy(or disorder) is lower compared to the fuzzy ball state since all molecules are lined up. Hence, as soon as you let the rubber go, it will return to its fuzzy ball status. Because you can view/call this behavior elastic, we finally arrive at the term “elastic entropy”.
So, how does this help us with our tackiness problem?
A grippy rubber creates its friction simply by rubbing the straightened polymer chain mesh against the balls surface. You might think the ball is smooth, but with a good microscope you can see that the ball rather looks like you “tried” to make a ball made of cellulose strings woven to a ball-like form with many gaps and uneven areas in between. Rubbing the two rough surfaces of the ball and the grippy rubber together creates the friction to handle incoming balls.
On the other side, the tacky rubber goes a step further. The manufacturer willingly breaks some polymer chains. The rubber surface then looks like some kind of dry mop. These limb polymer chains doesn’t seem to help at first sight. However, if we hold one end of the chain and increase the temperature we get an interesting result.
Remember at first that the temperature is roughly defined through the average movement speed of the air particles. This high speed molecules collide with our limb chains and pass them some energy through their impact friction and hence heat. The rubbers polymer chains now have some extra energy. Remembering the second law of thermodynamics we know how this energy is spend. The chain start clewing itself to a fuzzy ball.
Depending on which chain length you use and how much heat is applied, we don’t necessarily reach the fuzzy ball state, but might stop at the point where the free end minimally clewed itself to some sort of hook.
Now remember how we described the surface of the ball, as a fuzzy ball of cellulose string with many holes. This combination makes a perfect hook and loop mechanism, doesn’t it? The same principle is used for hook and loop fasteners (or velcro fasteners) for shoes and other materials like all sorts of velcro games ;).
To state it again, the underlying reason which makes a rubber tacky is the hook and loop mechanic between the half loose polymer chains of the topsheet which are partially clewed and the rough surface of the ball.
Sadly this hook and loop mechanism isn’t picky and likes to grab dust particles just like balls, so we have to clean the rubber more often.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2019 at 4:55pm


embossed text, ITTF logo etc., can be seen on the Base layer of the topsheet, and the outer layer ( of silicone material) is smooth all over.
Cninese inventive people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/27/2019 at 8:07am

Heh, it is getting hot.

Edited by igorponger - 09/27/2019 at 9:10am
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