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spongeless inverted rubber illegal?

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    Posted: 12/23/2012 at 12:20pm
I've read in an old post in another forum that inverted topsheet without sponge is not allowed.  Does anyone know why?  Please advise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 12:45pm
It's not allowed, because the rule states so. I have no idea as to what reasons there are for this to be out ruled though, but it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote experience Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 12:58pm
Ittf confirms just the rubber normal side not inverted side and it must be a confirmed mark on the sheet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by experience experience wrote:

Ittf confirms just the rubber normal side not inverted side and it must be a confirmed mark on the sheet.
but the ITTF mark is on the inverted (smooth) side *scratching my head*.  can you elaborate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 1:59pm
You may use the inverted topsheet upside down as a short pips/middle pips rubber. After all, it is the topsheet that is approved, not the sponge.
 
P.S. This looks like another stupidity contest. So I am in. Star


Edited by Imago - 12/23/2012 at 2:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by pingponger pingponger wrote:

I've read in an old post in another forum that inverted topsheet without sponge is not allowed.  Does anyone know why?  Please advise.
  
 
 Very valid question. Not approved by the ITTF....then why? I would like to know the answer myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 2:45pm
Would anyone REALLY want to use an OX pips in sheet?
 
It has to do with how ITTF defines a covering.
 
Why they did that? Ask a drunken monkey...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toprank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 3:12pm
A member from my club plays with inverted ox...are you saying it's illegal? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 3:25pm
Look at the covering. Look for the ITTF or natl association stamp. do you see it? Is it on the approved list?
 
Some rubbers are designed to be played pips out OX, like a hardbat rubber. If it is an approved rubber, than it is an approved rubber.
 
ITTF has not sanctioned Pips-In OX rubber yet. Has any natl association done this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 3:29pm
As for what goes in a club... big deal. Anyone want to get bent out of shape whether a dude shows up with one of these OX Pips-In rubbers, whatever, there are more important things to worry about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 5:42pm
I'm still quite interested in the real answer to this question.  And I'm not alone.  I know there's always the section of asking Mr. Sharara directly, but wanted to ask the community first.

There are more important things to direct our energies on than trolling around.  And was anyone really trying to use an OX sheet pips in?? Really? LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 6:07pm
I searched around some more and got answers that satisfied me.  The reason was historical, and no explicit restriction on spongeless inverted (it just got left out of the mix, because it was a circus back then as to what racket surface/covering was going to be accepted), when ITTF was still writing its rules.

Here is a link to another forum thread which talks about the topic (admins, please feel free to moderate if there are issues with linking to other forums):

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17863&start=15&sid=2a160ffec47b09c753ab963a2610981e



Edited by pingponger - 12/23/2012 at 6:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 6:13pm

This was discussed on about.com some time ago. Not making inverted Ox rubbers legal was an accident of omission from the original 1959 ruling. Also accidentally left off were sandpaper, cork and wood coverings. Unfortunately, it has never been corrected so those coverings are illegal.

So basically, inverted Ox, sandpaper, cork and wood are all acceptable coverings but unfortunately illegal by accidental omission from the ITTF rules.

Here is an extract from the posts of Jay Turber and bcbcbc.

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?sr=y&msg=28480.26&nav=messages&webtag=ab-tabletennis

Jay:

“The rule is very explicit.  You have two options, ordinary pimpled rubber with pips out or sandwich rubber.  That makes it clear that if the pips are in, it must be sandwich rubber. It gets more specific by defining what it means by "ordinary pimpled rubber" and "sandwich rubber."

2.4.3 A side of the blade used for striking the ball shall be covered with either ordinary pimpled rubber, with pimples outwards having a total thickness including adhesive of not more than 2mm, or sandwich rubber, with pimples inwards or outwards, having a total thickness including adhesive of not more than 4mm.

2.4.3.1 Ordinary pimpled rubber is a single layer of non-cellular rubber, natural or synthetic, with pimples evenly distributed over its surface at a density of not less than 10 per sq. cm and not more than 30 per sq. cm.

2.4.3.2 Sandwich rubber is a single layer of cellular rubber covered with a single outer layer of ordinary pimpled rubber, the thickness of the pimpled rubber not being more than 2mm.”

Bcbcbc:

“>> The rule is very explicit.

It explicitly says what is legal. It does not explicitly say that ox inv is illegal. That is implicit by omission. I agree 100% that your interpretation of the actual text is the only logical interpretation I just see no clear and unambiguous intent to eliminate ox inv. The rule makers were very detailed and explicit about maximum thicknesses of rubber and total sandwich. If they really cared about inv having a sponge wouldnt they have listed a minimum thickness?

>> It seems unlikely that this was an accident that has somehow survived for years. That rule dates to 1959!! I suspect the reasons stopped being discussed decades ago - which is why neither of us has heard anything about it. If it were a new rule, I could see that it may just be a matter of poor wording. But the rule is as old as I am, so that seems unlikely. Surely something would have motivated a "fix" in nearly fifty years.

Why? Who ever cared? I've seen recreational bats with ox inverted. Nobody cares if they're 'legal' or not. Inverted works better with MORE sponge. Classic anti works better with sponge to kill speed. Players looking for reversal can/could do better with pips. Has anybody at nationals ever complained that the opponent was cheating due to using inverted without sponge? Has there ever been a usatt or ittf  ruling that did explicitly say that ox inv is illegal and give a reason?”



Edited by Tinykin - 12/23/2012 at 6:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 9:34pm
It is illegal to play with OX inverted, but it is allowed to use it to simply cover one side of the blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2012 at 10:09pm
Its just a rule, why is the sky blue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2012 at 9:02am
JUST PLAY THE GAME....

it is all belongs to the days of the past.
All the law-makers who layed down the Rubber&Racket rules back in 1959, are stone dead by now.
You shall never know a true answer for your why's, never you shall.

Drop asking iddle questions.... Relax, and play the game. It is still admirable, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2012 at 9:19am
Playing with no sponge inverted   is quite funny. Sometimes I do it  to bring new dimension to the game.

Edited by ChichoFicho - 12/24/2012 at 9:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2012 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

JUST PLAY THE GAME....

it is all belongs to the days of the past.
All the law-makers who layed down the Rubber&Racket rules back in 1959, are stone dead by now.
You shall never know a true answer for your why's, never you shall.

Drop asking iddle questions.... Relax, and play the game. It is still admirable, anyway.
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In addition to playing the game, I find enjoyment in learning the principles and reasonings behind its rules, history, etc.
Not learning from the past and from dead contributors is something you are free to make but I discourage you from.  If you live your life in blind acceptance of things, that's your choice, but that is not an intelligent person's.
I got my answer, from researching.  Read above.  I think I also helped a couple of people who also wondered.
If you think a question is idle, replying to it is more idle.
Yes, we need to relax and play this admirable and well-thought-out (but still evolving) game, and not troll around.
Cheers...


Edited by pingponger - 12/24/2012 at 1:11pm
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