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Timo Boll ALC vs Viscaria

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    Posted: 01/15/2011 at 2:53pm
Hi guys I know this thread has been posted before but the answers weren't very specific so I posted this topic.I would like to know the difference between these two blades in terms or looping,counter looping,smashing and serving.which one is a better blade?Thanks and sorry for the second post
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote german-defence-freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2011 at 2:59pm
You can´t say, which blade is better.

Viscaria has more feeling and it´s softer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2011 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by german-defence-freak german-defence-freak wrote:

You can´t say, which blade is better.

Viscaria has more feeling and it´s softer.
 
agreed. It is not a question of being better. they are a little different.
 
however pay attention to weight. if wants more power take +90 gr.
 
TB ALC is harder and a little faster. I like tb alc a little more for smashing and blocking but viscaria feels better to have bh stroke variation. good looping blades.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2011 at 4:43pm
I own both blades. TB ALC feels a touch lighter than Viscaria. IMHO, TB ALC has more control than Viscaria in the short game. Heck, you can even chop with a TB ALC, but not with a Viscaria. Lobbing is also easier with ALC than with Viscaria. Blocking, looping, and smashes are pretty much the same, perhaps blocking is easier with TB ALC because it's slower than Viscaria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2011 at 5:41pm
ok,thanks for all the replies,that's exactly what I wanted to hear,now,time to buy my second TB ALC instead of a 1st viscaria Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2011 at 1:05am
so is the alc slower than the viscaria?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2011 at 2:57am
yup, that's how I recall it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2011 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

so is the alc slower than the viscaria?


No, no, and no. The ALC is harder and faster than the Viscaria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2011 at 6:35pm
lol this is what happens when Butterfly make 50 blades that are almost all the same :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2011 at 10:27pm
Bluebucket has it correct.  They are very very similar blades.  I have owned at least six Viscaria blades, and have played with many different TB ALC blades (and owned one), all covered with T05.  These things are made of wood, so no two are exactly alike.  I actually believe that the differences within each model are at least as large as the differences on average between Viscaria and ALC, at least with respect to speed and feel.  (People knowledgeable about statistics who have used an analysis of variance test will recognize that this is another way of saying there is no significant difference between the speed or hardness of the blades).  The slight trend is for Viscarias to maybe be just a little softer than TB ALCs, but not always. 

The handles are quite different though, and I think they are made of some different materials, so the weight distribution will feel just a bit different.  That is a much larger effect than the underlying wood/fiber.  Also, these days only the Boll blades are generally available in a straight handle if that is what you like.  If you took away my Viscarias tomorrow and said I had to play with a TB ALC, my level and style of play would be exactly  the same after about 6 hrs of practice with the new blade.  If you took away the Viscaria I use now, and made me use my spare, which is a bit heavier and faster and which I don't like as much, it might be the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2011 at 10:30pm
One other thing, the older Viscarias are a bit softer than the newer ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2011 at 3:21am
yes, the blades are very similar in almost all respects, and Baal got the bulls' eye that variation within the model are as large as variation between models. I also think the old Viscarias used to have different core and have softer feel than new ones, and I confirm that the only material difference between the Tb ALC aand the Viscaria is the weight distribution (having owned 4 Viscarias and 5-6 ALCs and TBSs IMO Viscarias is a more head-heavy blade than the ALC) and this is a significant difference for high-speed and power play.

Edited by vvu.tee - 10/13/2011 at 3:24am
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(2) BTY T64 - BTY M.MAZE - DHS H3 Neo Provincial
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2011 at 12:42pm
I am planning to use a Viscaria for training purposes. 

I am trying to test if there is a difference between training with a faster blade and playing serious matches with a controllable one with all the same characteristics as the training blade. All are going to be with the same set of rubbers. Hence, Viscaria ---> ALC. 
 
Will it be beneficial to do so? 
Should i consider my serious blade be a Yinhe V-14 which is said to be softer and slower than a TBS?

Viscaria - 88grams
ALC - 86 grams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2011 at 7:36pm
It makes no sense to train with a blade that is different than the ones you will use for serious matches.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mizutani_jun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2011 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

It makes no sense to train with a blade that is different than the ones you will use for serious matches.  


+1...
train blade = serious match blade.
Why need to train and play serious game with different blade?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 12:21am
did you try it? that's why i want to try it. 

a slower blade might help with control when needed 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 1:37am
So let me get this straight.  You want to practice with a blade with one feel and set of response properties, and then play serious matches with a setup with different feel and responses because you think this will make you play better?  I am sure you cannot be dissuaded from what you have decided is a good idea --and for which you seek approval.  For the sake of completeness though, here is why you will eventually give up the idea.  When you play a serious match with your suddenly slower blade, and are looking for the power you need-- say, on opening loops just to name one shot -- you will find it's not there, so you will find the need to swing harder to get the penetration you need--and then you will be rushing your shots, and mistiming.  Therefore missing more, not less.  Your blocks will go into the net, and the feel on short game will be different, causing you to overcompensate and pop balls up.  Probably lots of other bad things will happen too.  There is a reason this is not an accepted training technique for any serious players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 1:48am
Actually, I did try it once, but not on purpose.  Like a fool, I packed my two Viscarias in my checked luggage on the way to a tournament.  The luggage was lost for awhile.  Didn't make it to my hotel until late in the afternoon on the next day.  However, I had matches early that morning and had to play with a friend's blade (a Maze).  Slower.  Not even a lot slower, but not what I was used to.  Not good.  Definitely not good.  I ended up buying another blade and rubber after the first match (since there was someone there selling Butterfly blades).  Same model as my other two that I eventually got later that day.  Still didn't play as good as my favorite one.  But it was a whole lot closer and I played a lot better!   And after that tournament, I had three blades.  I don't think I have any of those three anymore.  Oddly enough, the best of the three was broken in the carry-on compartment of another flight because I did not have an adequate case.  One was stolen out of my car.  The third, the one I bought at the tournament, I eventually gave away because I never did like it.  Now I have one that I really really like, and I am very careful with it!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 1:58am
For a pro, this is a matter of dynamic accommodation.
 
BTW, 10 days ago, I ordered a Viscaria from Presports - and still processing. These guys do not seem to have the blade in stock.


Edited by Imago - 10/24/2011 at 2:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 2:05am
I was under the impression that Viscaria was due to be replaced by the Zhang Ji Ke blade.  If so, then I guess what would be more relevant is a comparison between ZJK and TB ALC blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 2:08am
How to compare if they - bty.tt - have no desire to ship ZJK outside BRD, Austria and Luxemburg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2011 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

How to compare if they - bty.tt - have no desire to ship ZJK outside BRD, Austria and Luxemburg.
I saw something from ButterflyOnline that said the ZJK would be coming to North America soon.  And since N.A. is usually last on Bty's list of priorities, I think it's safe to assume that this paddle will soon be available everywhere. Of course, "soon" could mean another year.
 
In the meanwhile, I was hoping for comments from people who'd bought one in Japan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 6:51am
it's not slower. after trying several ALC and viscaria, viscaria is definitely faster. the original butterfly ratings had the viscaria speed rated higher. no idea why it's positioned lower on the matrix. however, only bty NA has that...and NA either doesn't care or messes up info a lot

if you ever played with the original iolite, that was rated 9.6 speed on the numerical system. the TBS being 8.4, viscaria was rated 8.9

*edit: so someone mentioned it seems slower up close. i thought about it. yes, viscaria is softer and for light shots, the speed doesn't kick in. in this sense, it feels slower than ALC, which will have a more solid touch when bouncing the ball off the racket. when making strong attacks however, viscaria will be noticeably faster. 





Edited by kurokami - 04/30/2013 at 7:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jobaumi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 11:39am
[QUOTE=kurokami] it's not slower. after trying several ALC and viscaria, viscaria is definitely faster. the original butterfly ratings had the viscaria speed rated higher. no idea why it's positioned lower on the matrix. however, only bty NA has that...and NA either doesn't care or messes up info a lot

if you ever played with the original iolite, that was rated 9.6 speed on the numerical system. the TBS being 8.4, viscaria was rated 8.9

*edit: so someone mentioned it seems slower up close. i thought about it. yes, viscaria is softer and for light shots, the speed doesn't kick in. in this sense, it feels slower than ALC, which will have a more solid touch when bouncing the ball off the racket. when making strong attacks however, viscaria will be noticeably faster. 



Full agree. It has a better touch in the short game. But its faster with a full swing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 12:11pm
Part of the difference lies in something Btfly is doing to the top ply of the TB-ALC, something similar to what Stiga does on the CR blades.  Viscarias are not like that.

The original speed ratings always depended on which example of either blade you tested, and there has been some change over time.  The Viscarias sold in the last 18 months have been consistently faster than ones bought before that  (I have been playing with Viscaria blades since about 2006).  Recent TB-ALC blades have tended to be lighter, a lot of them in the 85 g range, down from when they first came out and averaged closer to 90.  Viscarias are still around 90 most of the time.  That means they will feel more stable from mid distance and beyond and in that sense will feel faster even if they are a bit less bouncy.  The differences in how they feel when you play are not huge, but they are greater than when the TB-ALC first came out.


Edited by Baal - 04/30/2013 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongcrazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by vvu.tee vvu.tee wrote:

yes, the blades are very similar in almost all respects, and Baal got the bulls' eye that variation within the model are as large as variation between models. I also think the old Viscarias used to have different core and have softer feel than new ones, and I confirm that the only material difference between the Tb ALC aand the Viscaria is the weight distribution (having owned 4 Viscarias and 5-6 ALCs and TBSs IMO Viscarias is a more head-heavy blade than the ALC) and this is a significant difference for high-speed and power play.
 
I think you are right... My old version of the Viscaria, which I play with regularly, has a Kiri core while I believe the new version has a Balsa core.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 2:06pm
Just out of curiosity, how can you tell the difference in the core?  I am not good at telling one kind of wood from another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 2:14pm
for the record!!! Viscaria does not have a Balsa Core. it was misdescribed by BTY USA website
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 3:11pm
I can not say why, but I have more confidence, and have more success rate with TB ALC when counter loop away from the table than with Viscaria.  It could be that the TB ALC is more balance in my hand IDK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 3:46pm
Viscaria has a Kiri core - always has had that. 
The composition is: Koto (Outer) - Arylate Carbon - Limba - Kiri (Core) - Limba - Arylate Carbon - Koto (Outer)

Timo Boll ALC has the same composition of plies as Viscaria (and a slew of other blades, for that matter), but not the same construction (ie dimensions & thickness of plies).



Edited by Pondus - 04/30/2013 at 3:52pm
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