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    Posted: 10/12/2008 at 11:19am
Today the Executive Committee of the ITTF met and discussed with the Chairman of the Equipment Committee a method of providing advance notice when racket coverings are removed from the Approved List.

It was unanimously decided that in the future there will be a 3-month period from the date the list is issued to the date it comes into effect. Therefore, the next racket covering approval list will be issued on 1 April 2009, however, racket coverings removed from this approval list will be allowed to be used till 30 June 2009. This will give players a 3-month grace period to continue using the racket covering.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 11:28am
That is a flexible approach, which will be appreciated among players.

How about disclosing the "partly patented" method of the ITTF for measuring friction, as put forward by TTMaster?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speaquinox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 11:28am
Any updates on TTMaster's situation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

That is a flexible approach, which will be appreciated among players.

How about disclosing the "partly patented" method of the ITTF for measuring friction, as put forward by TTMaster?

Hans


Here is the technical description of the type of instrument used by ITTF's labs for testing friction:

ITTF uses UST (Universal Surface Tester).
 
The mechanic surface-structure-analysis process MISTAN is able to evaluate the micro-mechanical, functional and topographical characteristics directly on any surface continuously, punctually and dynamically. UST evaluates continually the material and the functional characteristics.
 
Objective statements can be made about the following points: total deformation, abrasion and scratch resistance, elasticity and plasticity, hardness, compressibility, material inconsistencies, softness / haptics, roughness, damping and viscoelastic properties.
 
With the additional module "MicroFriction" one is able to determine the friction within the mN-range. The microfriction table is fixed at the positioning table. A test sample fixed on the micro-friction table is moved under the loaded counterpart / stylus. The friction force transmitted from the counterpart to the test sample is detected by a highly sensiitive Piezo sensor, which is integrated into the positioning table. The micro-friction module can be used for haptical as well as for micro-tribological examinations of plane or structured surfaces.
 
Our limit for pimples-out rubber is 25mN.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pimple Lover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 11:57am
Is this method simpler than checking if rubber is treated by visual ? How many country have this tools ?  Will ITTF buy it for them ? If it's accurate , how come that the approved rubber fail in another test ?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Pimple Lover Pimple Lover wrote:

Is this method simpler than checking if rubber is treated by visual ? How many country have this tools ?  Will ITTF buy it for them ? If it's accurate , how come that the approved rubber fail in another test ?
 
 

This is the method used at the ITTF labs to approve rubbers. Initially a rubber is approved based on the samples provided by the manufacturers. Then samples are taken from the market and tested. Rubbers may be taken off the approval list for a variety of reasons:
- the manufacturer does not wish to have it approved by ITTF anymore
- the manufacturer discontinues the rubber
- the manufacturer failed to pay the approval fees
- the rubber did not pass the periodical tests


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 12:25pm
How can a manufacturer be expected to design new rubbers without the same testing device?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pimple Lover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 12:45pm
So, how this method can prevent 'treated rubber' in non-international match ? For example , if someone coat 'Butterfly Feint Ox' and use in local league in Brazil.
 
I guess this rule will not help anything. It may cause more 'ILLIGAL RUBBER' in non-international match as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

How can a manufacturer be expected to design new rubbers without the same testing device?


These are universal tools readily available on the market and all manufacturers have them of course.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Pimple Lover Pimple Lover wrote:

Is this method simpler than checking if rubber is treated by visual ? How many country have this tools ?  Will ITTF buy it for them ? If it's accurate , how come that the approved rubber fail in another test ?
 
 

This is not a method to detect anything. I was explaining the approval method for friction and how it is done at ITTF labs. Once a rubber is approved, it means that it meets ITTF's requirements. What you are describing is cheating. This is why we have 'Racket Testing" at all ITTF events. We should not confuse the "Approval" process with "Racket testing" at an event. The Racket testing at an ITTF event includes checking post-treatment of the racket covering, flatness, glossiness, friction, presence of VOCs, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

These are universal tools readily available on the market and all manufacturers have them of course.


Not according to Mr. Gustavsen in his correspondence with TTMaster. He said that this device cannot be provided to TTMaster due to patent issue or something..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:17pm
You would also have to know if a PP ball is what is used against the rubber and how much pressure is applied.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:18pm
It is good to see that our complaint has effects. I know that someone on another forum wrote to you because of the upcoming ban and that we dont have time to find new equipment. I'm not having any problems with you anymore :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Rtenkmt6M

Self-made video please watch and comment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

These are universal tools readily available on the market and all manufacturers have them of course.


Not according to Mr. Gustavsen in his correspondence with TTMaster. He said that this device cannot be provided to TTMaster due to patent issue or something..

All manufacturers have friction measuring devices, otherwise how would they know how to produce the rubber according to friction specifications of the ITTF? They can use any universal friction surface measuring device, as long as they are measuring according to the same units. Those rubbers that do not meet the ITTF's specification on friction are either not approved or removed from the approval list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

You would also have to know if a PP ball is what is used against the rubber and how much pressure is applied.


Yes, of course.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Tomii Tomii wrote:

It is good to see that our complaint has effects. I know that someone on another forum wrote to you because of the upcoming ban and that we dont have time to find new equipment. I'm not having any problems with you anymore :P


The complaints were very logical. The problem is that the manufacturers wish their NEW rubbers to be approved and that the approval comes into effect immediately. Of course we understand that. The problem is that when we changed and made the approval lists effective immediately, we did not realize the negative effect it would have on the "Removal" of approval on some rubbers. So, we have gone back to allowing a 3-month period for each list to come into effect. We will also try to find a method that covers both sides, by allowing immediate effect for NEW rubbers, while having a 3-months period for "removed" rubbers. This would be the ideal solution for everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:30pm
I never have problems with Mr. Adham or anyone else..
I have problems with the rules that keep changing though. And how this rules is so impractical and leave a window for unhealthy competition (cheating). Such as rumors of the use of illegal booster (even some who still uses speed glue), since there is no device to test them and if there is they can't detect them (boosters)..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

These are universal tools readily available on the market and all manufacturers have them of course.


Not according to Mr. Gustavsen in his correspondence with TTMaster. He said that this device cannot be provided to TTMaster due to patent issue or something..

All manufacturers have friction measuring devices, otherwise how would they know how to produce the rubber according to friction specifications of the ITTF? They can use any universal friction surface measuring device, as long as they are measuring according to the same units. Those rubbers that do not meet the ITTF's specification on friction are either not approved or removed from the approval list.


a part of the correspondence..

Dear Sir,

In order to produce our long pimple as in accordance with the directives of ITTF as possible, we would like to purchase a device for measuring the coefficient of friction approved by ITTF. Please let us know if it is possible to buy such a device and the name of the supplier. We built for the moment a device for measuring the coefficient of friction. However it is difficult to calibrate this device because in the regulation you have set a level of friction force of 25 mN without giving details about the object with which the racket covering brought into contact and the value of the force applied on the object for measurement. Is the object in question a table tennis ball? If so, in addition to the weight of the ball 2.7g what is the value of the additional force to make measurement?

Thanking you in advance for these vital information to ensure our production, please accept, Sir, our highest consideration.

Yours faithfully

Ping Xiao Wei

====================

Dear Ping Xiao Wei,
I think this is a difficult task. The equipment used is very special, modified and partly patented, I have been informed.

I am sorry being late in answering as I have been attending the World Championships in Guangzhou, which has created a lot of work on my part.

Best regards
Odd Gustavsen

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

I never have problems with Mr. Adham or anyone else..
I have problems with the rules that keep changing though. And how this rules is so impractical and leave a window for unhealthy competition (cheating). Such as rumors of the use of illegal booster (even some who still uses speed glue), since there is no device to test them and if there is they can't detect them (boosters)..

We are in the process of developing devices that will detect boosters and tuners. The new devices will specifically detect low PPM emissions. We do realize that not all players respect the rule and that the "honour system" is a thing of the past, so we will tighten our controls by lowering the PPM tolerances and being much more accurate on the thickness measurements. We do rrealize that no matter how low our PPM tolerances may be, some products will still be lower, but we believe that at that level the advantages gained would be minimal and the health concerns would be next to nil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dragon kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 2:01pm
One more thing perhaps you should know Mr. Adham, cheating players use non max rubbers, for example rubbers with 1.9 mm sponge, and tune them. it will be thicker but will not pass the ITTF maximum thickness..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 3:28pm
Dear Mr. Sharara,

Thank you for speaking to the players here. Will you give us your word that the ITTF will not ban anti-spin rubbers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

These are universal tools readily available on the market and all manufacturers have them of course.


Not according to Mr. Gustavsen in his correspondence with TTMaster. He said that this device cannot be provided to TTMaster due to patent issue or something..

All manufacturers have friction measuring devices, otherwise how would they know how to produce the rubber according to friction specifications of the ITTF? They can use any universal friction surface measuring device, as long as they are measuring according to the same units. Those rubbers that do not meet the ITTF's specification on friction are either not approved or removed from the approval list.


a part of the correspondence..

Dear Sir,

In order to produce our long pimple as in accordance with the directives of ITTF as possible, we would like to purchase a device for measuring the coefficient of friction approved by ITTF. Please let us know if it is possible to buy such a device and the name of the supplier. We built for the moment a device for measuring the coefficient of friction. However it is difficult to calibrate this device because in the regulation you have set a level of friction force of 25 mN without giving details about the object with which the racket covering brought into contact and the value of the force applied on the object for measurement. Is the object in question a table tennis ball? If so, in addition to the weight of the ball 2.7g what is the value of the additional force to make measurement?

Thanking you in advance for these vital information to ensure our production, please accept, Sir, our highest consideration.

Yours faithfully

Ping Xiao Wei

====================

Dear Ping Xiao Wei,
I think this is a difficult task. The equipment used is very special, modified and partly patented, I have been informed.

I am sorry being late in answering as I have been attending the World Championships in Guangzhou, which has created a lot of work on my part.

Best regards
Odd Gustavsen

Adham Sharara
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

Originally posted by Adham Adham wrote:

These are universal tools readily available on the market and all manufacturers have them of course.


Not according to Mr. Gustavsen in his correspondence with TTMaster. He said that this device cannot be provided to TTMaster due to patent issue or something..

All manufacturers have friction measuring devices, otherwise how would they know how to produce the rubber according to friction specifications of the ITTF? They can use any universal friction surface measuring device, as long as they are measuring according to the same units. Those rubbers that do not meet the ITTF's specification on friction are either not approved or removed from the approval list.


a part of the correspondence..

Dear Sir,

In order to produce our long pimple as in accordance with the directives of ITTF as possible, we would like to purchase a device for measuring the coefficient of friction approved by ITTF. Please let us know if it is possible to buy such a device and the name of the supplier. We built for the moment a device for measuring the coefficient of friction. However it is difficult to calibrate this device because in the regulation you have set a level of friction force of 25 mN without giving details about the object with which the racket covering brought into contact and the value of the force applied on the object for measurement. Is the object in question a table tennis ball? If so, in addition to the weight of the ball 2.7g what is the value of the additional force to make measurement?

Thanking you in advance for these vital information to ensure our production, please accept, Sir, our highest consideration.

Yours faithfully

Ping Xiao Wei

====================

Dear Ping Xiao Wei,
I think this is a difficult task. The equipment used is very special, modified and partly patented, I have been informed.

I am sorry being late in answering as I have been attending the World Championships in Guangzhou, which has created a lot of work on my part.

Best regards
Odd Gustavsen


Dear Sir,

I would prefer if you wrote officially to me at [email protected], and I will do my best to help you.
Adham Sharara
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Pongology Pongology wrote:

Dear Mr. Sharara,

Thank you for speaking to the players here. Will you give us your word that the ITTF will not ban anti-spin rubbers?


The way rules are made or equipment rules are changed is a process that starts at the national association level or through propositions made by the expert committees. In both cases the proposition must be voted by the appropriate body: the AGM or the Board of Directors, and these are the bodies that decide. So, of course I cannot guarantee you anything, but I have not heard of a proposition to ban anti-spin rubber yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by dragon kid dragon kid wrote:

One more thing perhaps you should know Mr. Adham, cheating players use non max rubbers, for example rubbers with 1.9 mm sponge, and tune them. it will be thicker but will not pass the ITTF maximum thickness..


Yes, you are right. We are completely aware of this fact. This is why the players that use boosters or tuners are detected because of the effect on the rubber making it bulge in the middle. In any case, our rule states that the total thickness had to be 4 mm (sponge and rubber) and players must respect this rule and should take into consideration all other factors to be sure that the total thickness does not exceed what is allowed by the rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thethinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:35pm
Why is there a need to detect and ban some vegetable oil that's not a health hazard? I am missing something. May be I need to look it up 'cause I never got a good answer from anyone......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:36pm
i think we went thru this a couple of times...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Rtenkmt6M

Self-made video please watch and comment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by thethinker thethinker wrote:

Why is there a need to detect and ban some vegetable oil that's not a health hazard? I am missing something. May be I need to look it up 'cause I never got a good answer from anyone......


The case of vegetable oil is not about a health hazard, it is about contravening the rule of altering the characteristics of the rubber, which is against the ITTF rules. Perhaps that is NOT a good rule, but for the time being this is the rule and we must respect it. Or perhaps a certain amount of tolerance could be introduced as a modification to the rule, as we do need the rule to keep the standards of the equipment relatively consistent and within set parameters. Only time will tell how this issue evolves after the introduction of more sensitive detection instruments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thethinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:46pm
I don't come to the forum as often as I like so if it's that important a topic perhaps a little repeating wouldn't hurt.

What's the reasoning behind the rule? You see where I am going with this......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote varghesep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2008 at 4:51pm
The friction long pips can lose it's friction after few weeks of usage. Is it illegal to use frictionless long pips which had friction once?
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