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Rating Estimation: Vet Penholder vs Junior Looper

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    Posted: 12/23/2018 at 5:27pm
How would you rate these two players? 






Edited by ChichoFicho - 12/23/2018 at 5:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 5:34pm
Hard to tell. The red player made tons of unforced errors. But the black shirt player could go up to 2150. Of course a better opponent might make it easier to get an idea of his rating
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranger-man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 5:57pm
The pen-hold guy has a pretty decent backhand. In fact he plays way too much BH and does not utilize the explosive pen-hold forehand as much as he should. He needs to work on his forehand in two ways:

1. He needs to work on converting more backhands into forehands
2. He needs to work on his forehand block

Apart from that he needs to work on his footwork. Yes it can be done at that age. I am 48 and I move to convert every possible attacking opportunity into a forehand. I also play pen-hold and do not do RPB, so I move a lot to compensate. If he does not want to move, or utilize the explosive pen-hold forehand, he might be better off changing to shake-hand.

Also, he has two rubbers on his blade and yet does not do RPB and I am not sure if he was twiddling. I would take one rubber off to make the blade lighter and that will help his hand-speed and reaction times. Yes it will make the blade lighter and maybe result in lack of power

He also needs to work on his attitude. He almost came across as almost lackadaisical at times, or so it seemed to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 6:59pm
Hey Chico...

Triple haha on red shirt penholder... in East Coast USA, if opponents can deal with his always illegal serve, then penholder would be 1800-2000 on his touch and blocking alone (if he isn't gung-ho Rambo air assault on BH and always missing) If opponents are troubled by the serve, then he would be 2000+.

Black shirt is 2100+ east coast USATT easy.

Penholder does the Eugene Wang ball toss... or LACK of ball toss. Often, he lifts ball and hand and drops hand... often his "Toss" is 2 inches high and 12 inches to the rear... a reasonable person would credit that as a near-vertical toss if they give penhonder guy a sporting 8x frequent flier miles credit for a 10% vertical angle at toss...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 7:44pm
I only watched a little. Do not know anything about rating. But i feel like the Guy in black is the better player. And i think the Guy in red feel like he need to play more difficult than he is capable of doing, otherwise the other Guy Will hit past him and win the point. So i think it is because of this the Guy in red is making alot of errors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 7:49pm
Looks like both guys could play better. But if this is a good representation of their levels, then I guess penholder 1800 and shakehander 2000. Even East Coast division 2100+ players don't make that many unforced errors. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 8:37pm
Slowhand, 2100-2400 USATT players on East Coast are gunna have a small disagreement with that statement... they usually do during/after they play R. Dewitt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 8:47pm
I could also say the US Open finals... the Japanese player is not far from 2800 play level 2800 USATT level and made a mountain pile of unforced errors vs E. Wang... and both players are not all that far apart in play level (and match went to deuce 5th after Japanese player was up 3-1)… 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 8:50pm
My estimates are:

Penholder is about 1700 to 1799. Definitely is below 1800.
Because I saw quite many 1800+ penholder, play a whole lot better than this guy.
(A) His BH landing rate is too low, missing too many.
(B) The way he attacks with his BH, there is no power. His penhold BH is a joke.

Shakehander:  is about 2100+ and going higher.
=====================

Our club has a Korean Penhold player, no RPB just traditional BH, he is slightly over 1800.
He can land his BH shots 7 times out of 10. And his BH shots is like a bullet, if it lands
it will be very difficult to deal with.


Edited by skip3119 - 12/23/2018 at 9:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 8:53pm
I see ALL KINDS OF WEST COAST 2200+ kids (and adults) make a mile high pile of unforced errors vs MyTT member "emihet" ... you gotta see him play live to know... some of these kids (pretty much all of them) are warriors in practice and practically never miss a ball, but when they play vs emihet, suddenly they miss a lot.

That isn't because players at that level are not allowed to miss or make more than a certain number of allowed unforced errors before being declared unworthy to have a certain 2200+ USATT rating... those warior kids earned their rating the hard way (training and tourney experience), but even those 2200+ warriors who are not suuposed to make easy mistakes sure do make more than one or two of them every game vs emihet… and emihet rating floats between 2000 and 2200.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2018 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

The pen-hold guy has a pretty decent backhand
===============================================

Are there other forumers here agree with this?:  The guy has a pretty decent backhand.

I just don't see it at all.
(1) Landing rate is too low.
(2) Absolutely no power. (If his BH shots should land, his opponent won't have much trouble to deal with them.)


Edited by skip3119 - 12/23/2018 at 9:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 6:06am
I'll bet guy in black is 2300 penholder 2100.

These threads always underestimate. No 2100 player looks good playing a 2300 player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 8:11am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

I'll bet guy in black is 2300 penholder 2100.

These threads always underestimate. No 2100 player looks good playing a 2300 player.

You are correct. The guy in the black is so much better than the penholder that its difficult to see how good either of them really are. I'd need to see them play a few different opponents to really know. The guy in the black is for sure 2150 or even higher. I think I could give the penholder a run for his money, but again its hard to tell because the guy in black is controlling the game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 8:47am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

I'll bet guy in black is 2300 penholder 2100.

These threads always underestimate. No 2100 player looks good playing a 2300 player.

I bet we have absolutely no way of knowing, unless players in video have established rating in their country and there is a way to translate it into USATT somehow. This is yet to happen in most of these threads (videos of Rich Dewitt are the only exception, I think).

I actually chuckle every time someone without any first hand exposure to USATT players, somehow gives a very accurate estimate of '2050'. 

Agree with the overall sentiment otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 9:17am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

I'll bet guy in black is 2300 penholder 2100.

These threads always underestimate. No 2100 player looks good playing a 2300 player.


I bet we have absolutely no way of knowing, unless players in video have established rating in their country and there is a way to translate it into USATT somehow. This is yet to happen in most of these threads (videos of Rich Dewitt are the only exception, I think).

I actually chuckle every time someone without any first hand exposure to USATT players, somehow gives a very accurate estimate of '2050'. 

Agree with the overall sentiment otherwise.
   You are right it's subjective until the point at which we have a data point with which to compare. I have seen many players suggested as 1600 who were regional champions or such.

I would be interested in conducting somewhat of a thread hijack here with two examples I have chosen:

Example 1:

https://youtu.be/eHgzCjzela8

Example 2:

https://youtu.be/_Tr_knZ70FA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 12:06pm
I didn't see much in the way of tricky serves from the penholder to lead me to believe that he's over 2000.


Edited by mts388 - 12/24/2018 at 12:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 12:10pm
The pen guy gets every return blocked to the deep fh pretty well I noticed. Maybe 1900 and 2100? I don't feel like the black player anticipated or moved to kill those wide fh like a 2100 plus would.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 12:12pm
I had a customer many years ago who watched videos and was sure his initial rating and his friends would all be over 1800 once they hit a rated tournament. I believe his initial rating was around 800.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I had a customer many years ago who watched videos and was sure his initial rating and his friends would all be over 1800 once they hit a rated tournament. I believe his initial rating was around 800.

We tend to overestimate ourselves and underestimate others. Wink

Watching yourself on video is very helpful in that regard (but can cause deep mental scars).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 12:26pm
Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. https://youtu.be/OjLIJoTkfZc

I think if posted anonymously the guesses would be 1600 or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. https://youtu.be/OjLIJoTkfZc

I think if posted anonymously the guesses would be 1600 or so.

I guess that's the match that bumped Pushblocker into lower division in Super Giant RR at the US Open!

His opponent was remarkably not bothered that much by LP returns (from a few early minutes that I watched)... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 1:23pm
Lp almost always make video rating difficult. No sponge lp at least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 2:19pm
My initial estimate for both of them is ~2150. That particular match ended with a 3:2 (11:9 in the 5th game) win for the shakehand player. 

Edited by ChichoFicho - 12/24/2018 at 2:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

 
I would be interested in conducting somewhat of a thread hijack here with two examples I have chosen:

Example 1:

https://youtu.be/eHgzCjzela8

Example 2:

https://youtu.be/_Tr_knZ70FA

These were pretty entertaining matches.  I started with the first match and at first I thought these guys can't be over 1800, then about the end of the first game, I was thinking they reminded me of my 2000 friends from Seattle in playing style and skill.  Then in the second and  third games I saw some rallies that were pretty impressive.  So now my inclination is to estimate their skills sets in the 2100-2200 range but they don't always play their skill set.  A lot of points they look nonchalant or lazy.  Maybe age and too much weight in the middle?

I enjoyed the second match as well, but it's harder to reach a conclusion about ratings because the tall guy is so much stronger than the short guy.  He appears to have a pretty complete skill set -- maybe 2350? -- but he makes some mistakes.  I have a friend who falls into this class and I find that it comes down to slowing down with more age and more weight, and sometimes also due to chronic injuries.  The tall guy is the one I would enjoy playing the most but also the one who would dispose of me most quickly.  I would also rank the tall player the strongest of the four players in the two videos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Here's almost 2000 Vs almost 2200. https://youtu.be/OjLIJoTkfZc

I think if posted anonymously the guesses would be 1600 or so.
No one wants to comment on how much Joey and Olivier look alike?  Give Joey a LP paddle and you could swear they were clones playing each other.  

Maybe they should play doubles together?  I could imagine the opposing team: "that's the player with LP, right?  Wait! It's the other guy with LP!  Oh, no! I got it backwards... that's it, I'm going to shave my head and wear black clothes from now on."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 3:56pm
Isn't the tall guy in FruitLoop' s second video the guy who plays at the Super Division in Belgium?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

 
I would be interested in conducting somewhat of a thread hijack here with two examples I have chosen:

Example 1:

https://youtu.be/eHgzCjzela8

Example 2:

https://youtu.be/_Tr_knZ70FA


These were pretty entertaining matches.  I started with the first match and at first I thought these guys can't be over 1800, then about the end of the first game, I was thinking they reminded me of my 2000 friends from Seattle in playing style and skill.  Then in the second and  third games I saw some rallies that were pretty impressive.  So now my inclination is to estimate their skills sets in the 2100-2200 range but they don't always play their skill set.  A lot of points they look nonchalant or lazy.  Maybe age and too much weight in the middle?

I enjoyed the second match as well, but it's harder to reach a conclusion about ratings because the tall guy is so much stronger than the short guy.  He appears to have a pretty complete skill set -- maybe 2350? -- but he makes some mistakes.  I have a friend who falls into this class and I find that it comes down to slowing down with more age and more weight, and sometimes also due to chronic injuries.  The tall guy is the one I would enjoy playing the most but also the one who would dispose of me most quickly.  I would also rank the tall player the strongest of the four players in the two videos.


Fair play Ben, you have a good eye, you estimated decently higher than what I thought people might guess. That said you are still low for the 3 players you guessed I reckon (obviously they don't have USATT ratings so there is no correct answer as such).

The guys in the first video are top 100 in England (78th and 50th atm). They are both probably on a par with, or even stronger than, the top cadets nationally. So comparing to the top cadets in the US, where I am making the assumption that top USA Vs top English cadets is close and these guys are around 2400 probably.

In the second video, tbh the shorter man I have a hard time guessing. But the taller guy is Chris Doran, English international, plays in Belgium Super league as someone above me let out of the bag. He doesn't compete much internationally but he has been ranked around 300 in the world. Here's him beating top 300 player David McBeath https://youtu.be/he-xsAehgTk . Here's him beating Thibaut Darcis an upcoming Belgian player roughly top 300-400 in the world: https://youtu.be/CnPlwXyvhd8 . So probably the answer is 2600+.

I reckon your guess of 2350+ would be way above average for forum guessers though.

The whole point I was trying to make with the examples is, until you get to the top top level, with polished "standard" techniques all round, everyone underestimates what standard they are watching hugely online.

If you are an 1800 player. Film your matches. You might be amazed how bad you look compared to what's in your head. An actual genuine 1600 match looks like absolute basement recreational TT to people online.

Edited by FruitLoop - 12/24/2018 at 4:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 5:26pm
Uups, FruitLoop, sorry for spoiling that! I assumed that as the name of Chris Doran was in the video and he is relatively known for some people, there was no surprise about his level.

Edited by Makelele - 12/24/2018 at 5:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

Uups, FruitLoop, sorry for spoiling that! I assumed that as the name of Chris Doran was in the video and he is relatively known for some people, there was no surprise about his level.
I don't know Chris, but I could see the technique.  It's hard to judge because the match is so lop-sided and Chris is making minimal effort.  In the last game there were multiple deuces because Chris didn't both to return his opponent's serve and he kept killing his opponent on his own serve.

What makes both matches deceiving is that all four players are over-the-hill and don't have the fitness or drive they probably did when they were younger.  By comparison, I take lessons from a Chinese coach who was around 2700 when he was active and whose rating is now in the low 2600s (he's around 30 and only coaches).  He looks much stronger than Chris, but that may be because he's still fit, so that he moves quickly and precisely around the table.

The guy playing Chris never had a chance to display his skills, so that's why I couldn't guess on him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2018 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

Uups, FruitLoop, sorry for spoiling that! I assumed that as the name of Chris Doran was in the video and he is relatively known for some people, there was no surprise about his level.
I don't know Chris, but I could see the technique.  It's hard to judge because the match is so lop-sided and Chris is making minimal effort.  In the last game there were multiple deuces because Chris didn't both to return his opponent's serve and he kept killing his opponent on his own serve.

What makes both matches deceiving is that all four players are over-the-hill and don't have the fitness or drive they probably did when they were younger.  By comparison, I take lessons from a Chinese coach who was around 2700 when he was active and whose rating is now in the low 2600s (he's around 30 and only coaches).  He looks much stronger than Chris, but that may be because he's still fit, so that he moves quickly and precisely around the table.

The guy playing Chris never had a chance to display his skills, so that's why I couldn't guess on him.
Benb, your mysterious Chinese coach still plays tournaments as he was up here playing and I remember him with a partner on the other side of the table from John and I at a PPC tournament! Lol
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