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deceptive BH serve tutorial video

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kevo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kevo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:21pm
Mick, thanks so much for taking the time to subtitle that tutorial. Really great work and not easy. I love the WRM guys and follow them on Youtube. With my very rusty Japanese, I can understand about half of what they're saying and read about 25% of the captions. Funnily enough, I'm often caught out on the loan words! Gyro, for example, I've seen in katakana before and, duh!, could not figure it out. Fair play to you, man. 

On a serious note, you might try to link up with the WRM guys on a more formal basis. They could increase their foreign viewership 5 fold if there were English subtitles available for their tutorial vids at least. You might draft up a proposal and email them. Might be a few free rubbers in it anyway, and they seem like good all around dudes. They seem to really enjoy table tennis and have a keen commericial/promotional sense as well. They might be looking to expand and you could be the man to help them! Or not. But it's what I'd do if I had the time, inclination and much better Japanese! 

Again, thanks for translating this. Incidentally, I've found myself getting far more joy out of BH service since the introduction of the plastic ball. It's about the deception now, rather than the amount of spin I've found, and it's easier to deceive with the BH serve. My 2 cents!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under.
I spent some more time testing the mechanics of this serve as shown in the video.  It's not just that the elbow has to be high to get the blade pointing down, but also when you raise the elbow.  

In the video, he doesn't start out with a high elbow (which also means high shoulder) on the back swing.  It raises it during the forward swing.  What i've been testing is the timing of raising the elbow.  If you raise the elbow early, then the blade tip is down well before striking the ball and you get top or side-top spin.  If you wait to raise the elbow later, you get side or side-under.

In the video he doesn't talk about this, which means he may not be thinking about this, and that could explain why his underspin serve doesn't always produce underspin.  Also, in the video both the speaker and his opponent use a very quick stroke for this serve, which helps to disguise the timing.

I have two friends (one about 1800 and the other about 2200) who both have very strong and very deceptive serves.  Both use a very similar stroke and have very quick timing.  Sadly, I've never been able to develop that quick timing on the BH serve, so my BH serve has always been lacking, which is why I'm always studying these videos. Wink

Anyway, I think you need to watch that timing of raising the elbow and shoulder to control the kind of spin you're going to get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 9:44pm
Thanks kevo. I'm glad you enjoyed the video. The backhand serve is also my most deceptive :) I don't think I'll have enough time (and I don't think my Japanese ability is good enough) for any type of formal work with them. That said, I'll probably slowly work on more in my free time!

@benfb The delayed timing is definitely a nice way to look at it, too! I think it's all about how to achieve the end goal, and all of these tips everyone has been mentioning is extremely valuable because it allows us to envision it in a different way. When I'm trying to be deceptive, I sometimes think about on purposely moving my elbow high right after doing a under spin serve with the intention of hoping making it look like top spin, and vise versa (moving the elbow down right after a top spin serve).

With one video, and the discussion we've all been contributing, I feel like my understanding of one of my best serves has once again been taken a level higher :) Now to practice it all haha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2019 at 7:25am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under.
I spent some more time testing the mechanics of this serve as shown in the video.  It's not just that the elbow has to be high to get the blade pointing down, but also when you raise the elbow.  

In the video, he doesn't start out with a high elbow (which also means high shoulder) on the back swing.  It raises it during the forward swing.  What i've been testing is the timing of raising the elbow.  If you raise the elbow early, then the blade tip is down well before striking the ball and you get top or side-top spin.  If you wait to raise the elbow later, you get side or side-under.

In the video he doesn't talk about this, which means he may not be thinking about this, and that could explain why his underspin serve doesn't always produce underspin.  Also, in the video both the speaker and his opponent use a very quick stroke for this serve, which helps to disguise the timing.

I have two friends (one about 1800 and the other about 2200) who both have very strong and very deceptive serves.  Both use a very similar stroke and have very quick timing.  Sadly, I've never been able to develop that quick timing on the BH serve, so my BH serve has always been lacking, which is why I'm always studying these videos. Wink

Anyway, I think you need to watch that timing of raising the elbow and shoulder to control the kind of spin you're going to get.


As an exponent of this serve who just saw this video, this 100% correct.   I think the presenter was sp enamored with the serves looking exactly the same he didn't understand that the swing and the timing of the contact during the swing are all subtly different.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2019 at 9:12am
Yes the lifting of the elbow is what produces the sidetopspin variant, but you also lift the elbow as a fake movement after the side underspin variant. If you do it smooth and quick enough like the guys in the video it's very hard to tell which is true and which is fake.

For me I was always able to serve a basic BH pendulum but never knew how to disguise it effectively, this video helped me immensely and now I think I have a semi functional deceptive BH serve which I can use for variation and when I want to save energy (FH serves involve waist rotation, and you need to quickly transition to the ready position after serve unlike BH serves which are way more straightforward)

For me working out deceptive serves is like sleight of hand magic, it's extremely fun to work on it to fool opponents!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2019 at 1:39am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

...

As an exponent of this serve who just saw this video, this 100% correct.   I think the presenter was sp enamored with the serves looking exactly the same he didn't understand that the swing and the timing of the contact during the swing are all subtly different.
hi, do you still have that bh serve video you shared a few years back? It was interesting and I bet an updated one would be welcome here now that (I suppose) you're even better at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2019 at 9:02pm
this is thebest video bh serve tutorial ever, thank you for the translation. 

at 5m32s in one of those cool italian league videos from forum member Jackcerry, the guy in black gives 2 bh serves in a row, the 1st one is underspin and it's followed by a topspin serve, the motions are so similar so it's a great real life experience at a level we can relate to:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2019 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

this is thebest video bh serve tutorial ever, thank you for the translation. 

at 5m32s in one of those cool italian league videos from forum member Jackcerry, the guy in black gives 2 bh serves in a row, the 1st one is underspin and it's followed by a topspin serve, the motions are so similar so it's a great real life experience at a level we can relate to:


At the timestamps serves you can clearly see that for the bh serve the paddle only goes down, and for the topspin he drags his arm up. To me it doesn't seem very deceptive, but I practice that serve myself a lot. For me I try to keep the same arm motion but only change the wrist flick direction at the end. I think others have touched on it here already, where you can keep the same motion or very close to it, and the main difference is in the timing of contact. 

As in, if for your top spin serve you pull your arm up, then your back spin variety needs to include the same motion -- after you contact the ball! And for your top spin, you just try to delay contact of the motion until the blade is pulling upward. 

I also focus on the side spin or corkscrew spin element as I feel it's easier to disguise 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/25/2019 at 12:06am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

this is thebest video bh serve tutorial ever, thank you for the translation. 

at 5m32s in one of those cool italian league videos from forum member Jackcerry, the guy in black gives 2 bh serves in a row, the 1st one is underspin and it's followed by a topspin serve, the motions are so similar so it's a great real life experience at a level we can relate to:


At the timestamps serves you can clearly see that for the bh serve the paddle only goes down, and for the topspin he drags his arm up. To me it doesn't seem very deceptive, but I practice that serve myself a lot. For me I try to keep the same arm motion but only change the wrist flick direction at the end. I think others have touched on it here already, where you can keep the same motion or very close to it, and the main difference is in the timing of contact

As in, if for your top spin serve you pull your arm up, then your back spin variety needs to include the same motion -- after you contact the ball! And for your top spin, you just try to delay contact of the motion until the blade is pulling upward. 

I also focus on the side spin or corkscrew spin element as I feel it's easier to disguise 
very nice tips to cultivate the disguise after I fully master contact! 

no doubt to me that the main idea is to contact before or after that vertex as explained above. now the following tips in the videos are pure gold to get closer to that vertex:

-handle points towards the top or server's head during the whole swing 
-the paddle is 1/2 vertical during the whole swing (45 degrees)

yours tips on top of that should be enough to get it top level. I need it to serve and be right there, all ready for the 3rd ball, no more jumping in after a pendulum, that's for youngsters! Big smile


Edited by fatt - 02/25/2019 at 3:29pm
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