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Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:55pm
we're getting closer, can we say the following: the hips thrust is what we really want 1st; now if the legs work can enhance the hips thrust, great! if not, just focus on the hips thrust.
It's similar to the thinking behind the appropriateness of a full arm fh loop with the elbow away from the body and a huge straight arm back swing: if away from the table, we have time and it adds power up. If not, the elbow stays close so the upper body can rotate faster (insert spinning ice skater's arms here).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 2:16pm
I'd say when there is time for an aggressive forward weight transfer, more weight gets loaded onto the back leg and the back leg definitely pushes hard, thrusting and rotating the hips and upper torso. When there's no time, the weight is more evenly distributed between the legs to begin with, but the back leg still needs to brace against the hip and upper torso rotation, as governed by physics.

To the Chinese at least, the ideal way to control your forehand stroke mechanics requires using the hips and upper torso to guide the hitting arm in both the back swing and forward swing.

To a large degree, the hip turn also controls your follow through and recovery/reset footwork after a forehand, as can be seen during 2 point, 3 point forehand drills 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

we're getting closer, can we say the following: the hips thrust is what we really want 1st; now if the legs work can enhance the hips thrust, great! if not, just focus on the hips thrust.
It's similar to the thinking behind the appropriateness of a full arm fh loop with the elbow away from the body and a huge straight arm back swing: if away from the table, we have time and it adds power up. If not, the elbow stays close so the upper body can rotate faster (insert spinning ice skater's arms here).

Hip thrusting to get more forehand power without turning your feet and staying off your heels when turning can lead to a lot of knee pain because of the torque.  Jump a bit if you want to hip thrust.  It is energy consuming like most things on good TT. 

Even close to the table you can hit straight arm loops.  The elbow doesn't have to stay close to the body on the forward swing.  The real issue is to what degree you can maintain balance doing so.  It's not the speed of the rotation but the balance and the recovery. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 

Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be

Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted.

I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why?  It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)


Edited by Ieyasu - 03/13/2019 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 

Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be

Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted.

I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why?  It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)
The hop I am speaking about is a bit different but related.  I am talking about hopping to rotate the body on the backswing and then hopping back on the forward swing to hit the ball as opposed to just rotating on the balls of your feet.  I think they are related in some cases bit different.

For your question, my theory is that it is more important to play with balance when you are closer to the table and the hop is almost a necessity if you want to repeatedly hit the ball hard close to the table and stay in balance. I don't think there is a significantly different requirement for balance I was watching FZD vs XX recently and what we noted was how they were hopping all the time.  But maybe they go off balance with power more often so there is no reasonable recovery.  Or they go back to a distance where power is more important and hopping will not reset balance.

The funny thing is that most of this hopping and resetting as far as I know seems to be largely unconscious and is done by just about every good player trained in balance and footwork. I have been trying to figure out whether it is worth learning for a serious adult player and how to learn it without doing 6 months of footwork classes and hoping it happens.

Again, I am neither a high level player or coach. Just speaking about my experiences trying to figure this stuff out as well as the kinds of things I have heard talking with other players and some coaches. There is also the issue that when women play one way and men play another, we have try to assume that it has little to do with gender style preferences. It may or may not but let us assume it does not for now.  Unless someone who has experience coaching lots of boys and lots of girls is willing to comment from their experiences doing so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 6:28pm
I'm guessing the small hop after a stroke or before receiving serves acts as a reset for positioning of the feet as well as the TT equivalent of the split-step in tennis. One times the split-step so that one's foot/feet hit the floor when the opponent contacts the ball. It's supposed to give you dynamic balance and allow you to move into position for the next shot faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 6:37pm
That reminds me the "bounce with the ball" concept that Anton Chigurh brought here:
The weekend before, Tom Veatch was explaining me his concept that he named just that:


Edited by fatt - 03/13/2019 at 6:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 


Edited by blahness - 03/13/2019 at 8:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 7:06pm
NextLevel, thanks for your explanations. They make total sense to me. 

And you wrote:
"I have been trying to figure out whether it is worth learning for a serious adult player and how to learn it without doing 6 months of footwork classes and hoping it happens."

Haha... I've been wondering along similar lines for myself. Please post your findings, when they occur. I suppose it might depend on the abilities, age, and health of each adult player. I am old and tall (194cm), and am trying to train to use my lower body more. For me it is physically difficult and of course I sometimes question the wisdom of doing it, but I enjoy the attempt, so I persist. (I used to run 4 miles daily, but all of this crouching, being on the toes (or balls of the feet), hopping, and pivoting is far, far more exhausting for me.)

raquetsforsale, my guess too, is that hopping acts as a reset, and as NextLevel explained it may be most useful at close to the table distances which may explain why I noticed the women doing it more than the men.

Fatt... thanks for that link! As mentioned, I'm tall and I do not consistently stay low, but that key thought of "bouncing with the ball" may do the trick!


Edited by Ieyasu - 03/13/2019 at 7:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 

Whatever anyone does do not follow this advice. P90x lol.

Still waiting for salty FruitLoop to offer his advice on core strength training. Apparently, according to this dude, you should avoid core strengthening exercises like plank, side plank, oblique v up and etc. 

Can't wait for him to impart his wisdom on his training routine. Hey, why not post a video of your loop drive? Since P90x AB X Ripper seems laughable to you, you must have done some other effective core training exercises that enabled a more powerful loop. We got plenty of people here wanting to learn the most efficient way to strengthen their core. 

Nothing wrong with core strengthening exercises. The best are the squat, deadlift and strict chin up. Specific core exercises like weight ab pull downs etc are good too.

But p90x is masturbation. Its a laughing stock in the physical development world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 8:27pm

This old video has one of the best views of topspin strokes. The hip turn along with what happens at the feet and knees is very visible. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

...
Fatt... thanks for that link! As mentioned, I'm tall and I do not consistently stay low, but that key thought of "bouncing with the ball" may do the trick!
Bouncing with the ball is cute a name. It’s just another teaching trick though, but when a trick promotes efficiency so well, it may be a model. 

There is harmony, and for some, beauty (dance with the ball?), in efficiency. I think we, human, are wired to be pleased when we see it; probably 100s other animals too, isn’t it a major factor in survival? 

The “bounce with the ball” rhythm is more visible in the women’s game. Men got it but raw power masks it; also maybe that’s not the main area of focus when growing up learning the game. As adults, this is something we learn with a pro coach because the speed of the block must adapt up and down to the students’ shot to keep the tempo and support them.

But again, it’s just a teaching tool that demands a controlled environment. In match play it’s called imposing our game, dominating.


edit: about your height, I like the idea of running with a gliding technique, not pushing too much on my feet so I do not fight against gravity and go forward instead up. It hurts the shins so much at first. As a runner do you find this of value? It seems to me the best lateral and pivot tt footwork is when gliding, pushing on the feet just what it takes and minimize how high they go. From there more is waste of time, energy and joints.



Edited by fatt - 03/13/2019 at 9:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 10:11pm
Split steps help to preload your leg muscles and get your knees bent and weight centered. This increases response quickness and power by a lot. Absolutely worth working on this if your body can take the extra stress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2019 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 1:10am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It


Edited by blahness - 03/14/2019 at 1:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 1:25am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It

IF you play in a club in the USA, you have been exposed to these ideas.  Whether you do it or not is your prerogative.  And I am happy you find the discussions productive.  I am still looking for someone to teach me something, rather than pretend to know more than they actually do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 2:38am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It

IF you play in a club in the USA, you have been exposed to these ideas.  Whether you do it or not is your prerogative.  And I am happy you find the discussions productive.  I am still looking for someone to teach me something, rather than pretend to know more than they actually do.

This post speaks for itself, the arrogant attitude of an amateur player...Dead  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote shaks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 11:46am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It

IF you play in a club in the USA, you have been exposed to these ideas.  Whether you do it or not is your prerogative.  And I am happy you find the discussions productive.  I am still looking for someone to teach me something, rather than pretend to know more than they actually do.

This post speaks for itself, the arrogant attitude of an amateur player...Dead  
I dont see it as arrogance but more like frustration. There is an underlying point that NextLevel makes. Without an actual experience be it with a coach or self taught, it is pretty much impossible to transfer esoteric table tennis techniques to random people on the internet. It almost ends up in confusion when you try to interpret with words the actual mechanism of technique. Anyway, just making a point not arrogance :)


Edited by shaks - 03/14/2019 at 11:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 2:23pm
I thought blahness had started a library of shots and situations since a few threads. It's an amateur endeavor on the forum that I welcomed, I thought it was enjoyable to review different aspects of the game as shown in the threads he started. I never read him and saw somebody pretending he fully knows something, he asks questions and answers to them the way he sees things without pretending it's science or truth. 
I am with nextlevel as well for he is serious and delivered the hours over a long period (about 7 years of training 3 to 5 times a week, online lessons, one to one coaching etc...) so he has all the reasons to be sometimes annoyed by people who think they know far more than they do. I do sin on that one on a regular basis but it is never malicious and if blahness sinned as well, I genuinely believe it was not malicious as well.
We take table tennis seriously but we never EVER take ourselves seriously, I think blahness is right there like I try to be. Sometimes, writing seriously about a shot may rub off onto the reader's perception about how higher than they are the poster thinks they are, I think that's what happened here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 5:06pm
I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 5:53pm
I think old amateurs learning the sport and lots of body rotation is a recipe for disaster lol... 

Most just paw out at the ball with their arms, or get minimal body rotation. Much easier on the spine and body overall. On top of that they have to move into position to get all that twisting ready! 

How much is really needed for most people? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 7:52pm
NextLevel wrote:
"Everyone has heard at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work."

obesechopper wrote:
"I think old amateurs learning the sport and lots of body rotation is a recipe for disaster lol... 

Most just paw out at the ball with their arms, or get minimal body rotation. Much easier on the spine and body overall. On top of that they have to move into position to get all that twisting ready! 

How much is really needed for most people? "

Both of you raise very good and interesting points/questions. I'm an old fool/amateur attempting to learn the "Chinese approach." I'm enjoying it along with the body pain. I use the pain to identify areas I need to strengthen. But sooner or later the body gives out and a change in playing style will be required.

I am quite curious as to what alternatives a good coach might employ with old amateurs. Of course, I realize that varies based on ability and age.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.

Sorry to hear that you have so much frustrations playing TT, maybe it's good to take a step back. It's a hobby after all! You should be deriving fun and enjoyment from it rather than suffering! LOL 

For me personally I get quite a lot of advice from very high level table tennis players but never professional coaching (for me it's more fun to work it out on my own and the money is definitely better invested elsewhere at my age). 


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:06pm
Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?


Edited by fatt - 03/14/2019 at 8:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.

I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 

Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.

Pretty good response fatt. Makes sense.

As for injuries... I'm inclined to agree, up to a point. Many seniors are bound to have pre-existing conditions precluding one from using the full "Chinese approach."


Edited by Ieyasu - 03/14/2019 at 8:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?

You can use good technique as it suits your body. Trying to play like ma long when you look like Peter Griffin is not the brightest idea! Even at the pro level they get injuries etc. Which is also why a good number of players end up having to retire or quit their ambitious climb! That goes across all sports. 

So I think there is a good technique to use for old timers or those less physically durable for certain motions, which is different from picture perfect Chinese footwork and body rotation. Is the juice worth the squeeze!? Should they really be trying to attain that level of physicality, when they have a very limited athletic resume? 

Put it this way, when is the last time you saw a 30 year old beginner develop really good body torque and all that along with it? I'm not saying dont try to at all, but that perhaps the degree they should try is greatly reduced from that of a pro athlete 

Even samsonovs relaxed technique is a result of decades learning and training from a young age 


Edited by obesechopper - 03/14/2019 at 8:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:47pm
I can still imagine a 230lbs 5’9” guy like I was trying to loop with technique but taking less advantage of it with less time available. It’s a lot more arm but it’s imposed by the habit of not focusing as much, giving up to gravity. With focus until it becomes natural, an overweight person can still try to distribute the effort to more muscles; giving more work to the arm will injure the shoulder eventually?

Edit: I have coached at home, old and smart lawyers, architects and teachers. They all came back because I know what they want from the game and I won’t try to take them to the og. They like to hear that because they feel understood. If they are total beginners I let them know that my job is to make them ready to be comfy at the club and they will understand why they lose and what they need to work on. They leave the nest after 5 to 10 1.5 hour sessions. 


Edited by fatt - 03/14/2019 at 8:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2019 at 9:43pm
I think ZJK had a pre existing hip condition as he mentioned in one of his videos....which caused him to overcompensate with the shoulder leading to other injuries imo.... Sadly he seems to have paid for his Grand Slam with his health! 
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