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Direct Link To This Post Topic: women in TT clubs
    Posted: 09/12/2019 at 6:06am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2019 at 2:07am
What silly little strawmen... 

Nobody insulted anyone's english skills... I commented on his word choice and the over the top/pretentious, roundabout method of trying to get his point across. It's clear enough from his vocabulary, that he probably knows more about english than 95% of the native speakers! Still, whether he writes in english or his native language, I'm sure the style would remain the same. Has nothing to do with his grasp of a language... 

And where did I jump in and immediately harass women? Comical! This was the "one female poster's" first message:

"TT has been and remains a primarily male-dominant sport, which also unfortunately has resulted in a too-prevalent culture of misogynism; whether overt or subvert, it exists and until enough of the lonely men wise up with sincere positive attitude and behavioral changes, nothing will change. The ball is in your court, Guys."

Yet, supposedly I was on here harassing women left and right? Where are those messages at, lol... A sexist comment was made (against males by the way - but in today's #metoo movement I guess that doesn't matter much hehe), so I wrote a funny made-up tale in response. 

Also, if anything, her comment illustrates a stigma women have toward table tennis - being that its only played by lonely old, creepy men... lol

But perhaps instead of demanding all the men change, she could work on removing her negative, skewed opinion about the playerbase of table tennis players 


Edited by obesechopper - 09/12/2019 at 4:39am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2019 at 12:35am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

I will make a meaningless post to move the number count to a more reasonable number.

As for the USA native folk (sadly) harassing the foreign folk about English, how about those same USA folk trying to move to a foreign country and function over there their way. 90% gunna cry a river of alligator tears, but a small percentage would go for it and earn respect along the way.

Out of curiosity, on this thread, where are peopled being harassed about their English? If you are referring to my post, questioning a user name, it was within the context of a name that some could find offensive. YoAss's English is perfect (extremely impressed with that).  Given his response and his fully-fluent writing skills, I get the impression he full-well understood its meaning in English.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

C'mon guys lighten up.

Hey, Baal, I understand that your role as moderator means the necessity of policing the conversation, however I think some important points are being made here.  Even so, it is highly unlikely that anyone will pause long enough to work out what's real and what's just their own prejudice at work.

A simple observation:  One, and only one, poster here is explicitly female.  She posted once and only once.  What happened?  She was immediately attacked (and that is the only word I can use for it) by Fulanodetal and obesechopper, and she went away.  Well done, guys.  That's how you treat women, huh?

And you wonder why there are no women in clubs...

That train left awhile ago.  I'm just trying to get people to set their flame throwers on low.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

C'mon guys lighten up.

Hey, Baal, I understand that your role as moderator means the necessity of policing the conversation, however I think some important points are being made here.  Even so, it is highly unlikely that anyone will pause long enough to work out what's real and what's just their own prejudice at work.

A simple observation:  One, and only one, poster here is explicitly female.  She posted once and only once.  What happened?  She was immediately attacked (and that is the only word I can use for it) by Fulanodetal and obesechopper, and she went away.  Well done, guys.  That's how you treat women, huh?

And you wonder why there are no women in clubs...

This is the internet.  I think that if you take what people do online as representative of what they are like in person unless they go out of their way to reveal personal details, you will be very wrong most of the time. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 11:35pm
I will make a meaningless post to move the number count to a more reasonable number.

As for the USA native folk (sadly) harassing the foreign folk about English, how about those same USA folk trying to move to a foreign country and function over there their way. 90% gunna cry a river of alligator tears, but a small percentage would go for it and earn respect along the way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

C'mon guys lighten up.

Hey, Baal, I understand that your role as moderator means the necessity of policing the conversation, however I think some important points are being made here.  Even so, it is highly unlikely that anyone will pause long enough to work out what's real and what's just their own prejudice at work.

A simple observation:  One, and only one, poster here is explicitly female.  She posted once and only once.  What happened?  She was immediately attacked (and that is the only word I can use for it) by Fulanodetal and obesechopper, and she went away.  Well done, guys.  And you wonder why there are no women in clubs...


Edited by Tassie52 - 09/11/2019 at 11:55pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 10:10pm
C'mon guys lighten up.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Why do all the posts read like a highschooler trying to word-salad their way by a college term paper? My god, lol...

The supercilious nature of your grandiloquently ostentatious missives do not effectuate any tangible motif whatsoever, pertaining to the transcendentally, and most exceedingly preeminent athletic endeavor we designate as table tennis. Rather they are merely your own tumescent folktales, spewed and regurgitated with the quixotically and sanguine hope of proselytizing others to the heretofore lugubriously typed messages.  

But as expected, this is the internet, and any time women are mentioned -- you will need the white knights to appear. 
For YoAss and I, English is a second language. Attacking us on that is so low. We are trying our best and you take us down for it. Bravo! you win with your friends, but only like hyenas, attacking in group and behind a screen. I am missing the right words to describe what I think of you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 1:40pm
ClapClapClapClapClap


FdT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 1:37pm
Why do all the posts read like a highschooler trying to word-salad their way by a college term paper? My god, lol...

The supercilious nature of your grandiloquently ostentatious missives do not effectuate any tangible motif whatsoever, pertaining to the transcendentally, and most exceedingly preeminent athletic endeavor we designate as table tennis. Rather they are merely your own tumescent folktales, spewed and regurgitated with the quixotically and sanguine hope of proselytizing others to the heretofore lugubriously typed messages.  

But as expected, this is the internet, and any time women are mentioned -- you will need the white knights to appear. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

YoAss,

My questioning the appropriateness of your username has nothing to do with whether anything else you  said on this thread is valid. Nor was my question an ad hominem attack (that claim may not have been directed at me... not sure).

However, a username like yours combined with your defensive response does suggest hypocrisy and selective enforcement. In other words, the rules apply to others, but to me... not as much.
why would you make a fixation on his handle? you have nothing to say on the topic or on what he says so you attack him on his handle? 
what's wrong with being named "YoAss" on a ping pong forum, adopting a nickname from his teenage years or young adult time that his buddies gave him, and an appropriate behavior towards women in clubs? why do you see the 2 mutually exclusive? you make no sense, you are empty. Either you are an hypocrite or you lack intelligence. I think the latter is true, you just can't think in context, that's it, and it's polluting.

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?"

His head is so far up his, he can't see that he keeps cherry picking and making stupid statements.

FdT

So we have a member treating another "stupid" and another attacking him on his handle...and nobody sees a middle school playground where abusers can roam free, insult and belittle?

That's why women are so low in numbers in tt clubs, they do not want to be associated with that kind of people.

You 2 make the very point of this topic.





Edited by stiltt - 09/11/2019 at 10:21pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 10:37am
YoAss,

My questioning the appropriateness of your username has nothing to do with whether anything else you  said on this thread is valid. Nor was my question an ad hominem attack (that claim may not have been directed at me... not sure).

However, a username like yours combined with your defensive response does suggest hypocrisy and selective enforcement. In other words, the rules apply to others, but to me... not as much.






Edited by Ieyasu - 09/11/2019 at 10:59am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2019 at 3:53am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?

My username is a pronounciation of my initials.  I didn't come up with it, a bunch of friends lovingly conjectured it at some point and after a while it became habitual.  You can blame me for that and I guess it's easy to make something else entirely out of it.

Even it it were a bad show of a sexist/body shaming pun, how would that disqualify my observations?  Note that you don't need to share them, or to endorse them, but that still does not mean they are not authentic.

I get the contemporary need to look away, and to deny the uncomfortable.  That too does not mean it's not out there.  At the risk of repetition, even those happy enough to really not recognize that there's much engrained group hostility towards, well, basically anything not fitting the mold: good for you.  It still does not mean there's no such thing as misogeny, no male gaze, and that there are no subtle (or overt) patterns of exclusion, diminishment, marginalization and ridiculisation out there.

The vigorous denial, and ad hominem attacks on my person, do not supply any evidence here.  Quite the contrary.


Edited by YoAss - 09/11/2019 at 9:23am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?

It's one of the paradoxes I am yet to investigate...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 10:15pm
ok folks .Behave.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?"


His head is so far up his, he can't see that he keeps cherry picking and making stupid statements.

FdT
I thought yoass was animated by things he saw and made him aware and concerned. He comes positively to underline that a ping pong club should follow rules closer to a corporate office when it’s about hr and further away from recess time in middle school.
I see you and the person you quote as not caring, in a tunnel vision that ignores women’s buying power; that represents probably the best target for the game’s popularity, they will teach their kids can’t you see???? So your tunnel vision that ignores women and that does not wonder why their presence is so low, I don’t give a flying 729. I think you’re happy as it is in your comfort and I’m happy for you but frankly you are not much I care either.



Edited by stiltt - 09/10/2019 at 9:00pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 8:16pm
"YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?"


His head is so far up his, he can't see that he keeps cherry picking and making stupid statements.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 7:43pm
YoAss, do you see a disconnect between your User Name and what you are espousing on this thread?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 11:22am
I'm reminded of the kid who gets to be hall monitor for the day... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2019 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"Wow. I don't think I've seen any of this in any of the clubs I play at. That's kinda sad to hear."

Don't believe these claims mickd. Like yourself, I have not witnessed any act or behavior that could be considered inappropriate at all. These people are simply virtue signaling and finding grievances where there is none to address. 

That's quite an accusation there, and a fallacy to boot.

The fact that you haven't witnessed it doesn't mean it does not mean it does not exist.  Quit the contrary, the fact that others have (myself included) seems to suggest a blind spot, or an explicit unwillingness to perceive, to acknowlege, or both.

As a club manager, I have to keep an open eye.  Whenever I see women (or LBGTQ's, for that matter), or the disabled, or the young players with social disorders we have being marginalized, I have to act in order to maintain the basic safety for all of the sporting environment.  Do I often have to?  No, not as long as I call a halt to things before they spiral into uncontrollability.

Innuendo, snide remarks, or singular focus on physical attibutes exclusively -- it doesn't matter whether positive ("nice ass") or negative ("hey ugly!") -- are made every know and then, with the common excuse when called upon that they were made in jest.  Well, it's not so funny if that's all a person gets to hear all the time -- and again, it doesn't matter whether it's about boobs, glasses, zits, or body fat, or whatever.

On a more positive note, these issues rarely (but not never) come up during actual gameplay.  Although there are spectators out there that stubbornly categorize all female athletes on the hot-or-not scale of things only (we can see that in the plethora of threads, here and on other forums, on which you can hold your breath waiting for such remarks whenever a female player is mentioned).

You can pretend it's not there.  And I may be oversensitive to it.  If so, I regard that as erring on the side of caution, which is the unavoidable hazard I'm willing to take.

But you don't get to dismiss that as whiteknighting, virtue signalling, and to simply discard these sensitivities as a needless drive to "find grievances where none exist".  We can well do without that.


Edited by YoAss - 09/11/2019 at 3:58am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 11:47pm
in another thread I linked to this one, maybe you'll think it's valid: http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/forum_posts.asp?TID=86727&PID=1077290&title=tt-business-model#1077290

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I thought the people above were being sarcastic, but more comments kept coming in. So maybe there was some seriousness to them. That's good to hear that in most cases, it's not like that.

When I visited the UK a few years ago, I went to a local club there. There were a few ladies out of about 10 people. I played with some and tried to coach some a little. Everyone was really nice and friendly.

Of course, some of that was sarcasm, but sometimes (I believe rarely) stupid stuff happens. As other posters have mentioned it has virtually little to do with the sport's lack of participation (by both genders).

As an example, of stupid/weird/criminal stuff, I knew a female whose car tires were slashed because she refused to have lunch with some idiot who played at the same community center... yes the police came and took a report. 

I have heard other stories, but they are quite rare and it is definitely not greater than what occurs in other sports and other endeavors. There have been plenty of documented sex abuse scandals in virtually every sport. One example:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Gymnastics_sex_abuse_scandal
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 7:57pm
"Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I thought the people above were being sarcastic, but more comments kept coming in"

yes, obessechopper was being sarcastic. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 7:16pm
Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything because I thought the people above were being sarcastic, but more comments kept coming in. So maybe there was some seriousness to them. That's good to hear that in most cases, it's not like that.

When I visited the UK a few years ago, I went to a local club there. There were a few ladies out of about 10 people. I played with some and tried to coach some a little. Everyone was really nice and friendly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 7:03pm
As a general rule, women in the United states don't play sports after their mid twenties.  Some do obviously, but a low percentage.  I'm like mickd I've never seen or heard of anything negative happening in the clubs where I play.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 6:59pm
"Wow. I don't think I've seen any of this in any of the clubs I play at. That's kinda sad to hear."

Don't believe these claims mickd. Like yourself, I have not witnessed any act or behavior that could be considered inappropriate at all. These people are simply virtue signaling and finding grievances where there is none to address. 

FdT

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 6:31pm
Wow. I don't think I've seen any of this in any of the clubs I play at. That's kinda sad to hear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by YoAss YoAss wrote:

Male here.  While I dislike sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy or gal, anecdotal evidence is just that too.

Here's my $.02.  Yes, I perceive misogeny in male-dominated groups often.  And I don't consider it quite hidden, at that.  Sometimes overt, in terms of sexual predatory behaviour, but must often in a more subtle tongue-in-cheek fashion.  Slight transgressions disguised as playfulness jests — yet targeted solely, and quite intensely, at women.

Females perceives as attractive get a different treatment from females not fitting stereotypical sexual attractiveness criteria, and the "non-attractive" females get harassed in different ways from the "attractive" ones.  The non-attractive ones get dismissed (through all kinds of body shaming, often) and excluded from the group in doing so, the attractive ones are marginalized by a constant stream of innuendo jokes.

Not all males do this and it doesn't happen every single second at every single place.  Yet it's definitely observable in male groups, is a prevalent phenomenon, and it's next to impossible to turn that group dynamic around.  The penalty for speaking against it is social exclusion.

The offhand dismissal, to me, is rather typical of the phenomenon.  I wasn't being sexually aggressive, I was just browsing through my brazilian bubble butt thong collection in front of you frantically.  Nooo, that's not a provocation.  And if you're offfended I'll blame your oversensitivity.   These things...
I am glad I read that. It totally resumes my observations. 

The only way I can understand (of course without approving) misogynistic behaviors in a tt club is when acknowledging that a person shows a lot of their personality when playing table tennis; so women will open themselves to strangers when playing and some men in the mystery of their dickhead will interpret it as a window of opportunity; then the staring starts and sooner or later, flat out dumb remarks will come along stupid smiles, especially from shy men who are not comfortable talking to women they find pretty. Eventually those women quit such clubs and only the die hard women will stick around because they are addicted to the game so they can manage it better.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2019 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by YoAss YoAss wrote:

Male here.  While I dislike sweeping generalizations as much as the next guy or gal, anecdotal evidence is just that too.

Here's my $.02.  Yes, I perceive misogeny in male-dominated groups often.  And I don't consider it quite hidden, at that.  Sometimes overt, in terms of sexual predatory behaviour, but must often in a more subtle tongue-in-cheek fashion.  Slight transgressions disguised as playfulness jests — yet targeted solely, and quite intensely, at women.

Females perceives as attractive get a different treatment from females not fitting stereotypical sexual attractiveness criteria, and the "non-attractive" females get harassed in different ways from the "attractive" ones.  The non-attractive ones get dismissed (through all kinds of body shaming, often) and excluded from the group in doing so, the attractive ones are marginalized by a constant stream of innuendo jokes.

Not all males do this and it doesn't happen every single second at every single place.  Yet it's definitely observable in male groups, is a prevalent phenomenon, and it's next to impossible to turn that group dynamic around.  The penalty for speaking against it is social exclusion.

The offhand dismissal, to me, is rather typical of the phenomenon.  I wasn't being sexually aggressive, I was just browsing through my brazilian bubble butt thong collection in front of you frantically.  Nooo, that's not a provocation.  And if you're offfended I'll blame your oversensitivity.   These things...


Yes, I think this is pretty much what I have perceived too.

A mostly unrelated issue affecting all kinds of sports, especially TT, is that there are so many other competing ways to play sports and spend time.  So American kids regardless of gender are just statistically far more likely to pick some other sport unless maybe their parents introduce them to TT (because there are so many choices).  And mostly those parents (whose kids play TT) are immigrants from elsewhere.  So this is true for both boys and girls. Independent of creepy guys, are girls likely to find TT aesthetically pleasing, or would they rather do gymnastics or dance, or soccer or tennis, or mountain biking or.......  to infinity.  


Edited by Baal - 09/09/2019 at 3:38pm
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