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what if modern players played with the old ball?

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blahness View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/12/2020 at 1:09am
Ittf put up a few old matches and I realised how little effort players back then were using to make the ball spin and fly fast....compared to the current large plastic ball where you have to throw your whole body into the ball for it to have any kind of real spin/speed (everyone is doing it these days)

Makes me wonder if Ma Long and Fan Zhendong and Xu Xin were to play with the old balls, how much spin would they be able to coax out of the ball with their more efficient modern technique? 

I would have guessed that if Xu Xin (highest spin loops on the tour) played with the old balls, his loops would be just outright unreturnable... Say if he's getting 7000+rpm on his loops now he probably would be looking at 10,000rpm using the old ball haha...

for eg, just crazy how Waldner just flicks his wrist and the ball just shoots out like a bullet lol, this is just impossible with the new ball....
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stiltt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2020 at 10:25pm
38mm old ball or 40 Celluloid old ball? Most top players were barely born when we switch from the 38mm ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2020 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

38mm old ball or 40 Celluloid old ball? Most top players were barely born when we switch from the 38mm ball.

38mm ball haha....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2020 at 10:52pm
yes, XX taking it all makes sense. People like Niwa, Moregard, Gauzy would do well too I imagine, all those people who enjoy doing tricks with the ball in the middle of important rallies, people with touch and creativity.

I am 100% sure that a competition featuring the 38mm ball for fun would have a lot of success; just for fun, no ranking points, just money prize and nostalgia.


Edited by stiltt - 10/12/2020 at 11:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/12/2020 at 11:00pm
Today's players would be terrible with the 38mm ball.

Their pushes would just never land on the table since the huge underspin would make them lift up like an airliner taking off.

Their loops would dive so fast and hard that they could not even get one over the net.

If they did somehow manage to rally, the ball would be so fast that courts would need to be 30×60 just so they could get back far enough to have a reasonable reaction time.

New super glues would need to be developed since  the stress during counterlooping would simply tear the rubber off the racket if today's glue was used.  Even if the rubber stayed on the blade the shearing stresses would break pips and separate topsheet  from sponge.

If the 38mm ball was brought back today's players would just have to stroke in slow motion (at least as it seems to them) in order to manage to land their shots on the table.  It would be yet another advantage for the Chinese as they have millions of Tai Chi participants ready to excel at the new "slow stroke" paradigm.

Mark - Who has always stroked in slow motion regardless of ball size

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2020 at 7:29am
Ermm
Yes I'm sure that no professional athletes could even get a push on the table. Inckuding ma long one of the most dominant TT athletes ever.
Or even Timo I'm sure despite growing as a professional during the 38mm era he would be useless.
It would be fine. Modern style is not far from Kong linghui. I suspect they would be a lot worse because they don't practice with them but also a lot wouldn't really suffer too badly. The same way they didn't suffer too badly moving to 40+ abs from 40 cel. Remember a lot of these players still played with cel 40 no issue so it's just a size change and these players are adaptable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2020 at 7:34am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Today's players would be terrible with the 38mm ball.

Their pushes would just never land on the table since the huge underspin would make them lift up like an airliner taking off.

Their loops would dive so fast and hard that they could not even get one over the net.

If they did somehow manage to rally, the ball would be so fast that courts would need to be 30×60 just so they could get back far enough to have a reasonable reaction time.

New super glues would need to be developed since  the stress during counterlooping would simply tear the rubber off the racket if today's glue was used.  Even if the rubber stayed on the blade the shearing stresses would break pips and separate topsheet  from sponge.

If the 38mm ball was brought back today's players would just have to stroke in slow motion (at least as it seems to them) in order to manage to land their shots on the table.  It would be yet another advantage for the Chinese as they have millions of Tai Chi participants ready to excel at the new "slow stroke" paradigm.

Mark - Who has always stroked in slow motion regardless of ball size


I got the tai chi joke. 
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Veet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/13/2020 at 8:43am
So, no ones going to talk about defenders ... ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2020 at 3:29pm
At the end of the day the ball still has to land on the table.  There is a reason players in the 38 mm era played the way they did.   Smaller balls will not arc the same way as a heavier and larger modern 40+ ball.  If you want to see how top modern Chinese players would do with a 38 mm ball, assuming they had sufficient time to adjust, watch old video of Wang Liqin.  Top European players, watch Timo Boll, or Samsonov who player across these eras.


Edited by Baal - 10/14/2020 at 3:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2020 at 4:36pm
Ok, I'm a mid level player, so here is my take.  The biggest adjustments would be in the timing and learning the flight path of the 38 mm ball for most players.  Touch shots would require some adjustments.  For some the speed would be a big factor also, as the ball is going to get through the table much quicker and won't lose speed as soon as the current ball when you move off the table.

A whole generation of players made the switch (in the opposite direction) with largely inferior balls in the beginning, so I don't see it being a huge thing for the pros if they have ample time to practice.  Long pips players would probably benefit, but again it is going to be an individual thing.  The old 38 ball will get to them faster, and retain more engery.  I would imagine there would be much nail biting and crying as players once again had to find what would work for them after a ball change. 

I play with faster equipment now than I did in the 38 mm ball era.  Of course speed glue was in play then, so that made a difference also.  Thumbs Up  With modern equipment that isn't necessary anymore, and yes it is a different effect than boosters, along with being much more toxic.

Then
Donic Person Power Allaround, (Allaround + speed, all wood)
Butterfly Tackifire Drive,  (with speed glue)
Butterfly Feint Long II, (long pips)

Now
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Victas V-15 Stiff,
Dr Neubauer Killer Pro Evo (short pips) or Spinlord Keiler (Medium Pips)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

At the end of the day the ball still has to land on the table.  There is a reason players in the 38 mm era played the way they did.   Smaller balls will not arc the same way as a heavier and larger modern 40+ ball.  If you want to see how top modern Chinese players would do with a 38 mm ball, assuming they had sufficient time to adjust, watch old video of Wang Liqin.  Top European players, watch Timo Boll, or Samsonov who player across these eras.
 

Watched some old WLQ videos and he seemed so much more tentative during the 38mm era, as if he was always afraid to just crunch the ball hard, as compared to his prime era during the speed glue 40mm days... I think perhaps you really had to give a lot of respect to the incoming spin in the old era, or maybe he's just inexperienced? Ma Lin on the other hand was a lot more comfortable just unloading powerloop after powerloop with no hesitation... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 1:49am
the new "slow stroke" paradigm

oh yeah!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2020 at 7:12am
After an adjustment period, I think the top players of today would be beasts with the 38mm .  The level of athleticism required today is much, much greater that the 38mm era.  I think the bigger difference would be that the BH block/counterhit would not be such a weakness.  The 38mm allowed a player to do well without a constant BH loop ex. Gatien, Samsonov, JO, Persson, JM Saive, LGL, and Kong.  WLQ and Ma Lin were able to do extremely well with the 40mm celluloid ball introduction in 2000 without a constant BH loop because they had tremendous athleticism and still were young enough, 22 and 20 respectively, to adjust physically.  Ma Long also started out in this style.  But you could tell that the environment after the glue ban in 2008 was more welcoming to the constant BH loop style of ZJK, Wang Hao, and Ovtcharov.

So changing from 38mm affected manufacturers more in that they made more money.  For players, the bigger change was the non-hidden serves and the speed glue ban.

If we are doing it for fun and just inserted the 38mm ball today and kept all the other rules (non-hidden serves, no speed glue) in place, I would imagine the rallies would look like this match
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