Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  Help Desk Help Desk  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - When will we play Table Tennis again?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Topic ClosedWhen will we play Table Tennis again?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1112131415 23>
Author
mts388 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/21/2014
Location: Sonora CA
Status: Offline
Points: 2167
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2020 at 2:48pm
The Sonora CA club will open on Monday the 22nd.  The Folsom CA club opened a couple of weeks ago and the SITTA club in Sacramento CA opened today.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
tom View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 11/18/2013
Location: canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2390
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2020 at 3:03pm
best wishes to all returning to indoor TT in a club setting
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6488
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2020 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

do you feel that a positive antibody test would clear you to behave normally?

Yes, with one caveat, which is that I would want to know the performance of the test (established senditivity and specificity) and I would have to trust the person carrying it out. Not all of the antibody tests out there are equally good.  A lot of them ARE good, though.  The one from Quest Diagnostics costs $120.  

I would find it quite liberating actually.  Personally I have zero reason to think I've been exposed so I'm not spending the money.  But if I had been out more, or had had some even minor symptoms, some reason to think I MIGHT have had it, I would probably go for it.

The quest is what I was considering. I had something really nasty in late December early January, and gave it to others

Where you live that early.......     Did you travel?   Of course, that is flu season.

I live in a Kansas packing town. We have a lot but probably not early. I have my theory but can't really share it publicly. I do believe that it's been around longer than people realize, hence the belief that it's spread so suddenly.

But I do travel around several Midwest clubs regularly. I had something at that time that I can specifically say that I told my doctor was quote different than anything I've ever had. It felt different and it hit my lungs exclusively.

Maybe I'll take the quest test friday


Edited by cole_ely - 06/15/2020 at 4:46pm
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2020 at 8:19pm
Could be.  And you might be right about it arriving here earlier (although some of the more recent genomic data on the virus in the US tend to argue against that, although to be honest that is an area of science I can't really evaluate competently).  

Could also have been flu.

If it was me I'd get the test.


Edited by Baal - 06/16/2020 at 9:52am
Back to Top
allencorn View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 03/16/2020
Location: Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2020 at 10:43am
The mask wearing research is pretty conclusive and intuitive - if you put any kind of barrier between you and an infection, or between an infected person and you, it is likely to help. Now if only more people would do this, we might get a handle on this pandemic.

The puzzling piece to me is some of the data, which I think must be highly flawed. In my county of about 700,000, the public health data show there have been 1961 confirmed cases (either through symptoms or testing), 112 have died, and 1670 have recovered. Doing some math, that means there are 179 known "active" cases. Even if that is a woeful undercount by a factor of 2 or 3, that would still mean there are only about 500 people wandering around who could be contagious at this moment. Even if many of the people are asymptomatic, unknowing carriers, are the odds of randomly bumping into one of those folks large enough to avoid risking going out of the house? Have one of them touched a doorknob that i touch? What are the odds one of those folks is a table tennis player?

I tend to believe the experts (epidemiologists, infectious disease experts) who know more about this than I do, so I am behaving, but I also know they can be wrong.

I am still avoiding going out as much as possible, as I still think the risk is too great, but I am not sure how I will decide that the risk has decreased enough to change that behavior, until a treatment or effective vaccine is developed and available.

I miss TT.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/16/2020 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by allencorn allencorn wrote:

The mask wearing research is pretty conclusive and intuitive - if you put any kind of barrier between you and an infection, or between an infected person and you, it is likely to help. Now if only more people would do this, we might get a handle on this pandemic.

The puzzling piece to me is some of the data, which I think must be highly flawed. In my county of about 700,000, the public health data show there have been 1961 confirmed cases (either through symptoms or testing), 112 have died, and 1670 have recovered. Doing some math, that means there are 179 known "active" cases. Even if that is a woeful undercount by a factor of 2 or 3, that would still mean there are only about 500 people wandering around who could be contagious at this moment. Even if many of the people are asymptomatic, unknowing carriers, are the odds of randomly bumping into one of those folks large enough to avoid risking going out of the house? Have one of them touched a doorknob that i touch? What are the odds one of those folks is a table tennis player?

I tend to believe the experts (epidemiologists, infectious disease experts) who know more about this than I do, so I am behaving, but I also know they can be wrong.

I am still avoiding going out as much as possible, as I still think the risk is too great, but I am not sure how I will decide that the risk has decreased enough to change that behavior, until a treatment or effective vaccine is developed and available.

I miss TT.


As I've said many times, the decision has to be based on your local conditions.  In my opinion it doesn't make any sense to be a shut-in.  Evidence such as it is suggests it is pretty hard to acquire this virus outdoors, and you can wear a mask and of course it reduces the odds of your getting it.  The literature is now unequivocal about that.  Personally, I live in a place that may be one of the most dangerous in the nation for Covid-19 right now (Houston, TX), but I don't hesitate to ride my road bike outside.  I have routes that reduce my contact with anyone else, but sometimes there are nice paved trails I ride where I will pass joggers or other cyclists.  I have a mask I can wear, and I put it on mainly on weekends if I see very many people while I am on my bike. Now of course, large crowded protests with people shouting might be another matter.  We will see how this impacts the infection rate soon I think.  I personally never enter any retail establishment without wearing a mask.  Ever.  I have some pretty good masks.  It is to protect myself and to TRY to set an example.  I have absolutely zero reason to think I have been infected but in the event that I am, this would tend to protect other people too.

What statistics should you be be paying special attention to?  If your local newspapers are reporting the number of people hospitalized with Covid-19 that is a good statistic to look at because it is independent of the amount of testing being done (or who is being tested).  In my state (Texas) this has increased every day for the last eight days and continues to be at record levels, even compared to April, and it is possible (but unlikely) that this might cause our Governor to rethink some of his re-opening strategies. OK it turns out that I just checked, it turns out as of today he refuses to make any change, he says that for now "we will have to live with the virus", which I would be ok with if he emphasized the role of masks more and indicated that things are NOT yet normal.  By the way, this should kill  any idea that it will go away when it gets hotter, since it is already hot as hell here, but that would tend to reduce further the likelihood of acquiring the virus outdoors during the daytime.

Can you believe the number of cases where you live?  Who knows?  (I would not trust anything in Florida).  I think it may be most prudent to assume a worst case underestimation of actual case numbers by 10-fold, but even then you would say ~20,000 infected since the beginning and a bunch undoubtedly recovered if they ever got sick at all.  Even then, this is 2.5% of the population.  Higher in the adult groups who would be more likely to be out and about, but many of those people are presumably recovered and no longer contagious.  So, your chances are pretty low.  Now, also you have to factor in your best guess as to what your own outcome would be if you got infected.

I miss TT too.   


Edited by Baal - 06/16/2020 at 3:24pm
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2020 at 6:37pm
I am contemplating whether there are circumstances where a floor-standing HEPA air purifier could be useful.  There isn't any question that most air purifiers will clear out the virus-carrying droplets that pass through them. The question is whether whether they can make a significant difference locally (the area near the purifier) in a larger room.

In a large room, such as a professional table tennis club, air gets only slowly filtered by the A/C system.  As an example, an 8,000 sf playing hall with 20 foot ceilings will take around 6.5 hours to cycle through the typical roof-mount "package unit" A/C.  So what if you wanted to purify just one corner of a room?

Floor standing air purifiers, such as you might buy at Costco for $100-700, typically advertise that they will purify a 150-500 sf room, which is obviously not going to clean an entire playing hall.  However, suppose you were playing in just one corner of the hall and you placed one of these purifiers next to your table.  Would it catch a significant amount of the "dirty" air that flows in from the rest of the hall?

The physics is a little complicated and I'm too rusty to attempt it.  An interesting experiment would be to set off a colored smoke bomb near a table and see whether the purifier provides any protection from the colored smoke.

None of this is really an issue at our club, where our giant roll-up doors really do recycle the building's air in very short order.  However, most commercial clubs don't have access to outside air flow in any significant way.  Builders rarely bother with windows that can open in modern commercial buildings.  So suppose you went to a club and you're in one corner while people are playing on other tables.  Could you provide yourself any significant protection with a purifier?

I'll add that in my Google searches I found that it can be helpful to put one of these by the bed of someone sick with covid, if they're at home with other family members.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/17/2020 at 9:50pm
Ben

Check this out.  Not directly analogous, but interesting.

Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2020 at 1:08am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Ben

Check this out.  Not directly analogous, but interesting.

Nice find.  And it comes from University of Oregon, at that!  This gives some indication to my question, because a window would act a lot like a purifier.  It also shows how we've made our club safer: the club uses three 10' roll-up doors on opposite sides of the building to create a draft.

Thanks.
Back to Top
igorponger View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Third planet to the Sun
Status: Offline
Points: 2871
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2020 at 11:47am
Playing the game outdoor will solve problems altogether.



/Be happy/
Back to Top
BRS View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 05/08/2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1216
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2020 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

  Even then, this is 2.5% of the population.  Higher in the adult groups who would be more likely to be out and about, but many of those people are presumably recovered and no longer contagious.  So, your chances are pretty low.  

Your chances *in any one outing or encounter* are pretty low.  If every day you go into indoor spaces with x random people and you and they are not wearing a mask, sooner or later you will be unlucky.  As allencorn noted, if everyone would simply wear a mask the virus would be dying out here like it is in europe and asia 
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2020 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

  Even then, this is 2.5% of the population.  Higher in the adult groups who would be more likely to be out and about, but many of those people are presumably recovered and no longer contagious.  So, your chances are pretty low.  

Your chances *in any one outing or encounter* are pretty low.  If every day you go into indoor spaces with x random people and you and they are not wearing a mask, sooner or later you will be unlucky.  As allencorn noted, if everyone would simply wear a mask the virus would be dying out here like it is in europe and asia 

Yep.  Indoors magnifies things.  Also time spent in proximity to a virus source.  Walking by someone is not like playing TT with them for 90 min.  It's why I'm not playing, plus the virus is raging worse than ever where I live.


Edited by Baal - 06/18/2020 at 3:25pm
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/18/2020 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

  Even then, this is 2.5% of the population.  Higher in the adult groups who would be more likely to be out and about, but many of those people are presumably recovered and no longer contagious.  So, your chances are pretty low.  

Your chances *in any one outing or encounter* are pretty low.  If every day you go into indoor spaces with x random people and you and they are not wearing a mask, sooner or later you will be unlucky.  As allencorn noted, if everyone would simply wear a mask the virus would be dying out here like it is in europe and asia 
I wholly endorse having everyone wear masks in public areas like stores, but there are some statistical considerations.  First, if you really have 2.5% of the population infected, then it takes 27 meetings with the public to have a 50-50 chance of meeting someone who is sick.  That's a lot of public interactions.  Second, the contagious rate is not going to be the same in all demographics.  It may well be that at this point that those in public are less that 2.5% contagious.  Third, simply being present in a group where someone is contagious doesn't measure the likelihood of the virus being transferred to you.
Back to Top
allencorn View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 03/16/2020
Location: Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2020 at 1:23am
Baal, so sorry about conditions in Houston. I know you are careful, but I hope everyone you care about stays safe.

I am not convinced the 2.5% rate in the population is accurate, at least not here. There have been about 2,000 total  cases here in a population of about 700,000, but these are total cases, and many of those were from March and April, and I would assume most of those are recovered. Even inflating the confirmed stats by a factor of 10 or 20, which I think is reasonable, still leaves a pretty small percentage that are currently contagious. But still too many to wander around without a mask.

I equate wearing a mask to wearing a seat belt. 99.99% of the time, or more, you probably don't need to wear a seatbelt (wear a mask). You arrive safely at your destination with no ill effects (you don't encounter anyone who is contagious). But you never know when someone may collide with you (infected person coughs or breathes in your direction). It may be just be slight tap and the seatbelt doesn't really matter and no damage to your car (you don't get infected). More rare, you may get in a fender bender (long-term encounter with infected person) and wearing your seatbelt means only minor issues (with mask probably not infected), but without seatbelt you get thrown through the windshield (without mask you get infected). Or even rarer, you might get hit by a drunk driver (super spreader) and be in a serious accident. With a seatbelt, your injuries are manageable (with mask low likelihood of infection). Without seatbelt you're in ICU with serious injuries (without mask, infected and on a ventilator).

There are currently too many unsafe drivers (infected people) on the road to not wear a seatbelt (wear a mask). Until there are more safe drivers on the road (mask-wearers) or I can be protected from their poor driving (get me vaccinated), it is safer to stay off the road (stay home), or if you have to get on the road, always wear a seatbelt (wear a mask).
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2020 at 6:46am
It's a good analogy but masks are better than seatbelts because the potentially protect other people, not just the wearer.
Back to Top
allencorn View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 03/16/2020
Location: Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2020 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

It's a good analogy but masks are better than seatbelts because the potentially protect other people, not just the wearer.

I wholeheartedly agree, but I couldn't come up with an analogy for that, and the lack of altruism being what it is, I thought appealing to self-interest would be useful. 
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2020 at 12:39pm
Heres one: driver's licenses, where you need in theory to show a minimal level of compete ce to get one. 
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2708
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2020 at 1:36pm
It's human nature that we tend to judge people on first appearances.  So I've invented Ben's guide to face masks:

1) Covers eyes only: superhero (e.g., Batman or Zorro)
2) Covers mouth only: super-villain (e.g., The Winter Soldier)
3) Covers entire face/soft material: bank robber or (any special ops guy gone rogue, but still a bad guy).  Spider-man is an exception, but he's too young to understand.
4) Covers entire face/hard material: superhero or super-villain, hiding disfigurement.  Exception: no disfigurement if your mask is part of a suit of armor, such as Iron Man.

So you can choose how public image by your choice of mask.Wink

This is intended to be a funny list, so I'm ignoring serious reasons for wearing masks, such as a niqab.
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 9:07am
Hi,

Here are a couple of late-breaking COVID-19 news items.

1)  It was recently reported in the headlines that Novak Djokovic, World tennis number 1, tested positive for COVID-19.  I find this information very uninteresting and unuseful.  To improve on the usefulness of this fact of the test, it would be beneficial to include in the news coverage information answering such questions as: Is he sick?  What is the extent of his symptoms?  What medications he is taking?  How many days of hospitalization has he experienced so far? Does it appear that he is a candidate for the ICU?  Is his doctor currently recommending ventilation?

2)  Just released an evaluation of Sweden's antibody spread.  Sweden was the most unrestricted of all the developed countries in its approach to COVID-19.  The study found only 6.1% of the population had developed antibodies to the virus.  Their top epidemiologist predicted 40% of Swedes would have developed antibodies by May.  This finding is intriguing and has long term implications, thus it is worthy of a quality explanation, particularly in light of the great emphasis some have promulgated on how highly infectious this virus is in comparison with comparable pathogens.  The Swedes are very surprised at this outcome.  [The primary motto in Sweden seems to be: "One meter of thoughtfulness."]

One big credit is due Fauci and the Gang is their perspective on the results of testing.  From a number of different publicly-available sources, their two primary conclusions are these:

1)  If you test positive for COVID-19, it is bad.  It is bad because you might become sick and have all the consequences of that condition.

2)  If you test negative for COVID-19, it is bad.  It is bad because you remain highly susceptible to the disease (see 1) above). 

We now have a comprehensive perspective on the test results.

Thanks.


Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 468
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 11:09am
Re Djokovic - definitely lessons to be learned on what not to do when resuming pro sports

Joker and several others, including a players pregnant wife tested positive after doing tennis exhibitions in Serbia. He played doubles and posted pictures of partying in crowded nightclubs.

"The Serb stands widely accused of complacency for organising an unofficial charity event – in Belgrade, Zadar and Montenegro (subsequently cancelled) – without safety protocols applicable in most other countries and which have prevented resumption of the main Tour until August."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/23/novak-djokovic-tests-positive-for-covid-19-amid-adria-tour-fallout
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 4030
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 11:24am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

Here are a couple of late-breaking COVID-19 news items.

1)  It was recently reported in the headlines that Novak Djokovic, World tennis number 1, tested positive for COVID-19.  I find this information very uninteresting and unuseful. ........

Now, really troubling is that info is still all over the place, and july is just around the corner Dead. On a lighter note, the first PGA Tour golfer to test positive was asked by his watch to take the test. 
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 13315
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 11:30am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

Here are a couple of late-breaking COVID-19 news items.

1)  It was recently reported in the headlines that Novak Djokovic, World tennis number 1, tested positive for COVID-19.  I find this information very uninteresting and unuseful.  To improve on the usefulness of this fact of the test, it would be beneficial to include in the news coverage information answering such questions as: Is he sick?  What is the extent of his symptoms?  What medications he is taking?  How many days of hospitalization has he experienced so far? Does it appear that he is a candidate for the ICU?  Is his doctor currently recommending ventilation?

2)  Just released an evaluation of Sweden's antibody spread.  Sweden was the most unrestricted of all the developed countries in its approach to COVID-19.  The study found only 6.1% of the population had developed antibodies to the virus.  Their top epidemiologist predicted 40% of Swedes would have developed antibodies by May.  This finding is intriguing and has long term implications, thus it is worthy of a quality explanation, particularly in light of the great emphasis some have promulgated on how highly infectious this virus is in comparison with comparable pathogens.  The Swedes are very surprised at this outcome.  [The primary motto in Sweden seems to be: "One meter of thoughtfulness."]

One big credit is due Fauci and the Gang is their perspective on the results of testing.  From a number of different publicly-available sources, their two primary conclusions are these:

1)  If you test positive for COVID-19, it is bad.  It is bad because you might become sick and have all the consequences of that condition.

2)  If you test negative for COVID-19, it is bad.  It is bad because you remain highly susceptible to the disease (see 1) above). 

We now have a comprehensive perspective on the test results.

Thanks.



I think the antibody issue is interesting.  As with all things COVID19, it will be years before we have anything conclusive.  Any reasoning on the basis of limited information that doesn't lead to a new drug therapy or a vaccine is usually derided by the experts.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Mazunov
FH: TBD (MX-S, C1)
BH: C1
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6488
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 12:52pm
I'm giving blood tomorrow, and free antibody test comes with
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 1:31pm
Hi,

One of the more interesting responses to this was from one of the pro tennis players who wished the infected a "rapid recovery".  I think (I thought) that the phrase "rapid recovery" pertained to those who are sick.  I haven't heard yet about the sickness of the four who were reported positive.  It is not at all clear to me how one "recovers" from a positive COVID-19 test.

This demonstrates the massive confusion in this demented era.  

One very striking absence in the billions of statements a day on this topic is the absence of any mention of "sickness".  No small amount of effort is required to locate "sickness" statistics.  One may draw the impression that "sickness" is not of prominent concern for the statistically inclined.

As to "sickness", it used to be different.  If you were "sick" with the flu, your doctor would say "you have a case of the flu," because you are sick with the flu.  Before, I never heard of anyone who had a "case of the flu" who wasn't sick.  Now what has captured the mind is "cases."  

If you are a "case", you have officially tested positive for the virus.  But that is not the end of this story.  You are further categorized as one of three types of cases:

1) Asymptomatic: (of which there are two sub-categories)
A. Pre-symptomatic (you are going to be symptomatic)
B. Not-pre-symptomatic (you are not going to be symptomatic)

2) Symptomatic

Other statuses are that you are infectious or you are not infectious.  

Then there are the two categories of people with the antibodies.  Of those, you are immune (but we are not sure for how long) or you are not immune.

And people ponder in disbelief at the varied responses of others in this time?

Thanks. 
  
Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%
Back to Top
cole_ely View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6488
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 2:38pm
well if it's what I had, I was pretty symptomatic and it took my gf a month to get over.

They say back then the virus may have been more severe
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 2:41pm
Bear in mind, there are two kinds of tests commonly used these days: 

1.  A PCR test, which detects the presence of the viral genome in a swab from the back of your nose.  This says if virus is still present in your body.  It will not detect other types of coronaviruses.  The confounding issue is that the virus you detect may now be dead, but in the majority of cases it would still be viable and able to infect someone else.  You could test positive in this way regardless of whether or not you are showing symptoms (presymptomatic or asymptomatic). This is the most common test.  Of course, a negative test today doesn't mean that you won't catch the virus tomorrow, and it takes a few days after infection for you to have enough of the virus in your respiratory tract for it to show up in a nasal swab.  These tests have gotten better but there are ways the lab can screw it up.  This is the type of test our own CDC screwed up royally at the beginning with testing kits that were contaminated (making them unusable).  One weak point of this testing is that the virus has to be present in the upper part of the respiratory tract (back of nose) and the swabbing procedure needs to be done properly.  Frankly, if it isn't fairly unpleasant, it probably isn't being done right.  If you test positive, you might later show symptoms or you might not (or they will be so minor as to be easily ignored).  Or you might feel soon like you have been hit by a ton of bricks, and you might end up in a hospital, and a few people will die.

2.  An antibody test, carried out on a blood sample.  This test determines if at some point in the last few months you mounted an immune response to SARS-CoV-2 (or another coronavirus that has some proteins with antigenic cross-reactivity).  It says nothing about whether your are infectious now.  You might be, you might not be.  Now, the amount of antibody in the blood (the titre) may be low, and some people are worried because they think it might mean that immunity to the virus is short lasting.  However, immunology is a lot more complicated than that and the relationship between antibody titre and ability to fight an infection is not straightforward.  By the way, a lot of these tests suck, and give unacceptable false positives and negatives.  I have read that the one from Quest Diagnostics is quite good.  I do not work for them or use any of their services (and I've not taken their test either).

3.  A third class of tests only done in research labs is to determine how long people maintain an immune response to SARS-Cov-2 by looking at so called memory T-cells and B-cells.  That has been done for SARS, and people's immunity to that virus seems to be quite long lasting (and even seems to confer some cross-immunity to SARS-COV-2).  So my guess is that most people will have fairly sustained immunity to SARS-COv-2 if they are exposed to it.  HOWEVER, there is a a thing called immune senescence, meaning that old people may not.  Aerobic exercise fights that phenomenon.


Edited by Baal - 06/23/2020 at 2:48pm
Back to Top
roundrobin View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/02/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 2:46pm
The main of point of identifying and classifying asymptomatic carriers is that much of COVID-19's long-term effects are still completely unknown at this point. Important studies in South Korea have shown that recovered patients and asymptomatic carriers still carry trace amount of this virus months after contagion. It's possible that this virus can not be completely eliminated from the carrier and can be reactivated at a much-later date (sometimes in terms of decades) while remains contagious to others for the life of the host. This is why this virus is so dangerous and I sincerely hope that all readers of this forum realize it.




Edited by roundrobin - 06/23/2020 at 2:48pm
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/23/2020 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

The main of point of identifying and classifying asymptomatic carriers is that much of COVID-19's long-term effects are still completely unknown at this point. Important studies in South Korea have shown that recovered patients and asymptomatic carriers still carry trace amount of this virus months after contagion. It's possible that this virus can not be completely eliminated from the carrier and can be reactivated at a much-later date (sometimes in terms of decades) while remains contagious to others for the life of the host. This is why this virus is so dangerous and I sincerely hope that all readers of this forum realize it.



I agree with this, although I don't believe that anyone has published evidence that what they are able to pull out of a swab (and which yielded the positive PCR signal months later) is still capable of infecting human cells.  (If they have, I missed it, which is certainly possible).

However, what would concern me is if cells that don't turn over (i.e. they are not regenerated) were infected by the virus (nerve cells, cardiac muscle, certain kidney cells, etc.).  We know of several ACE-2 expressing cell types in that category, and there is no good way to test if those cells harbor the virus for long periods of time.  So I am concerned with things like kidney disease and heart failure some years down the line for people who had the virus owing to infection of those cells by SARS-CoV-2. My fear in this regard is based on autopsy findings of where the virus ended up. I've had some conversations with a couple of pathologist colleagues about kidney issues to look out for down the road and how t o  study it.  Obviously, autopsy material is from is a highly selected patient population (people who died).  At this point, nobody knows what will happen over the long run, but a lot of pulmonary fibrosis is almost guaranteed. 

Edit added.  One week ago there were 2150 people in Texas hospitalized for Covid-19 and today it is ~4100.  There were 5,000 new cases identified in Texas today (a record).  They are now transferring some adult Covid-19 patients to Texas Children's  Hospital in Houston where they have some spare ICU capacity (at the moment).  At this rate things could get really ugly quite soon.


Edited by Baal - 06/23/2020 at 9:28pm
Back to Top
DonnOlsen View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/15/2008
Location: Maryland, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1055
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 8:43am
Hi,

In the conventional news coverage of COVID-19, where there is no shortage of Fauci and the Gang (fully employed, highly compensated, very financially secure) representatives sitting before the audience aghast, shocked, perplexed, flabbergasted, frustrated, and extremely troubled by the range of American behaviors varying from the prevailing epidemiological-scientific directives of how one should think and feel and act in their personal lives, an advocacy extremely exclusionary of the anthropologist, sociologists, economists, and social psychologists who provide other applicable understandings that are highly relatable to those common people so roundly and thoroughly criticized by those clearly in possession of superior judgment.

That these representatives "cannot conceive" of why such aberrant behavior is exhibited by so many provides testimony to the representatives' educational background which has very poorly positioned them to, in a quality manner, influence properly national social and economic structures.  Not deterred by their deficiencies, the leaders of the masses' psychic troubles continue, as does their relentless certainty.  

For many others, this recalcitrance found in the population is easily explainable.  Somebodies in American eliminated 60 million jobs, an act performed very quickly, in fact at a speed unique to history.  That these same job-decimating people did not insist and ensure that the many tens of millions of families who would suffer very greatly by these decisions would be, at least financially, provided reasonable security immediately upon the effect of these decisions being realized seems not to be of significant importance to them.  While the success of the job devastation portion of these leaders' behavior is beyond dispute, these leaders' understanding of the non-COVID-inflection consequences is highly inclined to the merely emotional among the devastated, to the point of finding humor in the most severe side effect (according to the Governor of a big East Coast state) of being assaulted by the feeling of going "stir crazy".  Finding food for their very damaged families is further down the list of significance. 

Not eluding the best analysis is the fact that the public presentation of COVID-19 features the least informative of the effects of the virus in the name of "cases", a now-worshiped summation of all that needs to be known to direct society in all the dimensions that society takes.  The brilliance of this statistical measure is found in the leadership's perspective of the equivalency of severity in all the statuses that those so inflected may be in.  As, from the perspective of the leadership's judgment, a case is a case is a case, no additional refinement is required to go forth boldly with the genius of the epidemiologist sitting on their shoulder.

Even the scientific-challenged recognizes the spectrum of effects from the infection range from no-symptoms to death.  This most annoying truth is held in the minds of many of the common people as they strive to continue their lives as best as they can.  The most gifted among us find it most profitable to ignore these people and their apparent derangement.

Here is a recent graph which attempts to assist in providing a view of the worst of the health effects of COVID-19.

coronavirus case fatality by age

Thanks.
  


Edited by DonnOlsen - 06/25/2020 at 8:43am
Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13990
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 10:05am
Just wear a fuc{ing mask. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1112131415 23>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.093 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2020 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.