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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

In the conventional news coverage of COVID-19, where there is no shortage of Fauci and the Gang (fully employed, highly compensated, very financially secure) representatives sitting before the audience aghast, shocked, perplexed, flabbergasted, frustrated, and extremely troubled by the range of American behaviors varying from the prevailing epidemiological-scientific directives of how one should think and feel and act in their personal lives, an advocacy extremely exclusionary of the anthropologist, sociologists, economists, and social psychologists who provide other applicable understandings that are highly relatable to those common people so roundly and thoroughly criticized by those clearly in possession of superior judgment.

That these representatives "cannot conceive" of why such aberrant behavior is exhibited by so many provides testimony to the representatives' educational background which has very poorly positioned them to, in a quality manner, influence properly national social and economic structures.  Not deterred by their deficiencies, the leaders of the masses' psychic troubles continue, as does their relentless certainty.  

For many others, this recalcitrance found in the population is easily explainable.  Somebodies in American eliminated 60 million jobs, an act performed very quickly, in fact at a speed unique to history.  That these same job-decimating people did not insist and ensure that the many tens of millions of families who would suffer very greatly by these decisions would be, at least financially, provided reasonable security immediately upon the effect of these decisions being realized seems not to be of significant importance to them.  While the success of the job devastation portion of these leaders' behavior is beyond dispute, these leaders' understanding of the non-COVID-inflection consequences is highly inclined to the merely emotional among the devastated, to the point of finding humor in the most severe side effect (according to the Governor of a big East Coast state) of being assaulted by the feeling of going "stir crazy".  Finding food for their very damaged families is further down the list of significance. 

Not eluding the best analysis is the fact that the public presentation of COVID-19 features the least informative of the effects of the virus in the name of "cases", a now-worshiped summation of all that needs to be known to direct society in all the dimensions that society takes.  The brilliance of this statistical measure is found in the leadership's perspective of the equivalency of severity in all the statuses that those so inflected may be in.  As, from the perspective of the leadership's judgment, a case is a case is a case, no additional refinement is required to go forth boldly with the genius of the epidemiologist sitting on their shoulder.

Even the scientific-challenged recognizes the spectrum of effects from the infection range from no-symptoms to death.  This most annoying truth is held in the minds of many of the common people as they strive to continue their lives as best as they can.  The most gifted among us find it most profitable to ignore these people and their apparent derangement.
Very nice post, Donn.  Baal is quite correct that wearing face masks is the prudent (and easy) thing to do, but your post is spot on in highlighting the failure of public policy on covid-19 and covering why so many people don't cooperate with said policy.

Part of the problem here is the popular conception of science is that it is a logical framework for understanding the world around us, but for the majority of people, it is not.  The vast majority of humanity has no real understanding of science, except to simply believe what they've been told.  In that sense, for most people believing in science isn't much different than having faith in a religion.  That means that when scientists make pronouncements, most people can choose to believe, or not believe, just like they might have their own interpretation of the teachings of their church.

In addition, most people simply want to get on with living their daily lives, regardless of who (scientists, government, church, etc.) is telling them what to do.  So prescribing their lives in ways that interfere with their daily lives is never going to be accepted over the long-term.  Even smart dictators know this.

Within the scientific community, it's always been my experience that they collectively have more confidence in their current understanding of any particular scientific question than is warranted by past successes and failures.  In other words, scientists are always sure they have it right now, even if they had it wrong last year (when they were sure they had it right). And they tend to be myopic to their specialty: a virologist, for example, will see a far greater risk in a virus than in other non-virus public threats.  So they are sure they know what the problem is (based on their specialty), they're sure they know the answer (based on their scientific understanding), and they don't understand people's reluctance to follow their directions.

This is why scientists should never be allowed to direct public policy, but should be limited to informing it (preferably in the background).  Unfortunately, in the covid pandemic, public leaders really had no idea what was going on, so they punted the question to the scientists.  The result was ineffective public policy with limited long-term public support (short term, of course, people will cooperate with almost anything for the general good).

I was trying to think of past health issues where scientific experts had specific policies they promoted and came up with two obvious examples:

1) Experts have established that smoking is carcinogenic and most people acknowledge this (very few deniers left any more).  Even so, governments don't ban smoking and it remains popular among a significant portion of the population.

2) As a failed example, consider the government policy to reduce or eliminate fat from food.  This was the result of a scientific push in the late sixties/early seventies, when it was believed that high-fat foods were the cause of obesity.  It was also quite wrong and may have caused more harm than good.

Add to all of this the media's desire to amplify concerns (hence the emphasis on infections, rather than mortality or hospitalization).  Some people take the media reports on face value, but many others view it more cynically.  The result is that the public has decreasing faith in the value of the current public policy.

And that's my two cents.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Just wear a fuc{ing mask. 
================
Saw a video the other day that wearing a mask reduces blood oxygen level.
------------------
Personal experience:  
Walking slowly in a reopened mall, for about 30-40 minutes, with a mask on.
After got out of the mall, I took my mask off - and found it took a lot out of me.

*** Baal was able to ride a bike with the mask on. ***
*** Different people have different physical conditions.***

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Just wear a fuc{ing mask. 
================
Saw a video the other day that wearing a mask reduces blood oxygen level.
------------------
Personal experience:  
Walking slowly in a reopened mall, for about 30-40 minutes, with a mask on.
After got out of the mall, I took my mask off - and found it took a lot out of me.

*** Baal was able to ride a bike with the mask on. ***
*** Different people have different physical conditions.***



I am sorry, but going out to a mall should be a low priority during this period of unprecedented biological threat. I wear a mask to protect you, and I hope that you wear one to protect me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Just wear a fuc{ing mask. 
================
Saw a video the other day that wearing a mask reduces blood oxygen level.
------------------
Personal experience:  
Walking slowly in a reopened mall, for about 30-40 minutes, with a mask on.
After got out of the mall, I took my mask off - and found it took a lot out of me.

*** Baal was able to ride a bike with the mask on. ***
*** Different people have different physical conditions.***



I am sorry, but going out to a mall should be a low priority during this period of unprecedented biological threat. I wear a mask to protect you, and I hope that you wear one to protect me.
I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like you're offended that he did his walking in a mall.  I think hispoint was more about attempting moderate exercise while wearing a mask than about where he was exercising, but I don't see using the mall as his walking route as a reason for being upset.  Clearly, a mall represents a higher risk than some other locations, but that just means that you (and I) can choose not to go there.  It says nothing about whether someone else should go there.

Also, I will challenge your choice of phrase "unprecedented biological threat".  In the first place, a threat is a threat, so there is no point in distinguishing biological threats specifically. I consider the threat of nuclear holocaust at the height of the Cold War to be a thousand times greater risk than covid-19.

In the second place, historically speaking, there have been many far greater biological threats: the Spanish Flu and the Plague being two examples.  Covid-19 is certainly a greater risk than modern society has experienced in many years, but that's just in the context that we have relatively safe, comfortable lives in current times compared to the past.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Just wear a fuc{ing mask. 
================
Saw a video the other day that wearing a mask reduces blood oxygen level.
------------------
Personal experience:  
Walking slowly in a reopened mall, for about 30-40 minutes, with a mask on.
After got out of the mall, I took my mask off - and found it took a lot out of me.

*** Baal was able to ride a bike with the mask on. ***
*** Different people have different physical conditions.***



I am sorry, but going out to a mall should be a low priority during this period of unprecedented biological threat. I wear a mask to protect you, and I hope that you wear one to protect me.
I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like you're offended that he did his walking in a mall.  I think hispoint was more about attempting moderate exercise while wearing a mask than about where he was exercising, but I don't see using the mall as his walking route as a reason for being upset.  Clearly, a mall represents a higher risk than some other locations, but that just means that you (and I) can choose not to go there.  It says nothing about whether someone else should go there.

Also, I will challenge your choice of phrase "unprecedented biological threat".  In the first place, a threat is a threat, so there is no point in distinguishing biological threats specifically. I consider the threat of nuclear holocaust at the height of the Cold War to be a thousand times greater risk than covid-19.

In the second place, historically speaking, there have been many far greater biological threats: the Spanish Flu and the Plague being two examples.  Covid-19 is certainly a greater risk than modern society has experienced in many years, but that's just in the context that we have relatively safe, comfortable lives in current times compared to the past.


Ben, I am not upset at skip and I have no intention whatsoever to respond to your challenge. I am simply astonished at your level of skepticism and your original claim that "we are not Italy" when it comes to potential level of COVID-19 infections in the U.S. just a couple of months ago. Thankfully your claim of the public's decreasing faith in science and public policy is simply your opinion not supported by facts. Look up the word arrogance may do you some good.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Just wear a fuc{ing mask. 
================
Saw a video the other day that wearing a mask reduces blood oxygen level.
------------------
Personal experience:  
Walking slowly in a reopened mall, for about 30-40 minutes, with a mask on.
After got out of the mall, I took my mask off - and found it took a lot out of me.

*** Baal was able to ride a bike with the mask on. ***
*** Different people have different physical conditions.***



I am sorry, but going out to a mall should be a low priority during this period of unprecedented biological threat. I wear a mask to protect you, and I hope that you wear one to protect me.
I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like you're offended that he did his walking in a mall.  I think hispoint was more about attempting moderate exercise while wearing a mask than about where he was exercising, but I don't see using the mall as his walking route as a reason for being upset.  Clearly, a mall represents a higher risk than some other locations, but that just means that you (and I) can choose not to go there.  It says nothing about whether someone else should go there.

Also, I will challenge your choice of phrase "unprecedented biological threat".  In the first place, a threat is a threat, so there is no point in distinguishing biological threats specifically. I consider the threat of nuclear holocaust at the height of the Cold War to be a thousand times greater risk than covid-19.

In the second place, historically speaking, there have been many far greater biological threats: the Spanish Flu and the Plague being two examples.  Covid-19 is certainly a greater risk than modern society has experienced in many years, but that's just in the context that we have relatively safe, comfortable lives in current times compared to the past.


Ben, I am not upset at skip and I have no intention whatsoever to respond to your challenge. I am simply astonished at your level of skepticism and your original claim that "we are not Italy" when it comes to potential level of COVID-19 infections in the U.S. just a couple of months ago. Thankfully your claim of the public's decreasing faith in science and public policy is simply your opinion not supported by facts. Look up the word arrogance may do you some good.

roundrobin,

I think benfb, just as you do, speaks for a sizable part of America.  I think part of the problem is that these parts of America don't like to talk reasonably to each other and by dehumanizing the behavior of each other, they end up not addressing the real concerns that either side has.

Just pointing out the obvious.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Ben, I am not upset at skip and I have no intention whatsoever to respond to your challenge. I am simply astonished at your level of skepticism and your original claim that "we are not Italy" when it comes to potential level of COVID-19 infections in the U.S. just a couple of months ago. Thankfully your claim of the public's decreasing faith in science and public policy is simply your opinion not supported by facts. Look up the word arrogance may do you some good.
Just a few corrections: first, I didn't say that the public's faith in science was decreasing.  I'm just saying that it's always been misunderstood and therefore often misinterpreted.  The proof is in the fact that people don't always do what science recommends, including the current reluctance regarding best practices for dealing with covid.

Second, I modified my very early remark regarding a comparison to Italy a long time ago.  In fact, the USA should never bee collectively analyzed because our demographics, societal practices, and public policies vary too much by region and state.  For where I live, the comparison to Italy looks really good.  if you live in Texas or NY, the comparison is not as good.

Calling me arrogant might be a case of the kettle calling the pot black, but it might be better to drop pejorative remarks altogether.  We disagree, sometimes strongly.  If you didn't have some confidence in your views, you wouldn't be posting them here.  How can you expect any less from me?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 4:20pm
roundrobin just can not read the post right.

Of the one time that I visited the mall, I DID wear the mask.
It was out of curiosity to see how it did after being closed for so long. I had no interest to go to a mall.
Due to my age, I hardly go out anywhere.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

roundrobin just can not read the post right.

Of the one time that I visited the mall, I DID wear the mask.
It was out of curiosity to see how it did after being closed for so long. I had no interest to go to a mall.
Due to my age, I hardly go out anywhere.


Correct me if I am wrong skip, did I say you did not wear one? I simply stated why you should regardless of discomfort of wearing one, as you seemed to miss Baal's point.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Ben, I am not upset at skip and I have no intention whatsoever to respond to your challenge. I am simply astonished at your level of skepticism and your original claim that "we are not Italy" when it comes to potential level of COVID-19 infections in the U.S. just a couple of months ago. Thankfully your claim of the public's decreasing faith in science and public policy is simply your opinion not supported by facts. Look up the word arrogance may do you some good.
Just a few corrections: first, I didn't say that the public's faith in science was decreasing.  I'm just saying that it's always been misunderstood and therefore often misinterpreted.  The proof is in the fact that people don't always do what science recommends, including the current reluctance regarding best practices for dealing with covid.

Second, I modified my very early remark regarding a comparison to Italy a long time ago.  In fact, the USA should never bee collectively analyzed because our demographics, societal practices, and public policies vary too much by region and state.  For where I live, the comparison to Italy looks really good.  if you live in Texas or NY, the comparison is not as good.

Calling me arrogant might be a case of the kettle calling the pot black, but it might be better to drop pejorative remarks altogether.  We disagree, sometimes strongly.  If you didn't have some confidence in your views, you wouldn't be posting them here.  How can you expect any less from me?


Ben, you have lost all credibility when you publicly predicted "less than a 1000 US COVID-19 deaths" by the end of the year. You should apologize to the families of the extra 120,000 deaths that we as a nation have suffered so far by consistently minimizing the threat of this disease even today. This is really unfortunate and I hope more people take it seriously. As a nation, we have reached a critical point with almost irreparable economic and public health repercussions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 5:55pm
In the meantime, i just corrected a misunderstanding of mine in the expression "the kettle calling the pot black": I always heard "the kettle calling the pot back" and I was thinking wrongly that the pot had called first.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 6:25pm
ben

You really should stop posting about Covid-19 epidemiology. Also you clearly dont know how scientists actually think and approach problems.  Scientists are data driven and take a critical approach to data.  It's why we do randomized double blind placebo controlled clinical trials for things like chloroquine instead of "using the force".  

As for Donn, this is the guy who referred to Trump pushing chloroquine as a scientific breakthrough.

In many ways this is not complicated.  SARS-COV-2  is a highly infectious respiratory virus and it spreads in aerosols when people are in contact.  People are now back in contact.  The virus once again starts infecting people and killing some.  And too many people dont want to do the one simple  thing that could help, wesr a mask in public, and avoiding other risky behavior.

As for masks restricting air flow or suppressing the immune system, that is generally not the case.  It's been studied.  Clearly they can be hot and uncomfortable, and once they get wet they suck worse.  A lot of what people write about masks is rumor and inuendo.   Let me suggest this to people who find masks to restrict air flow so much that it significantly impacts physical performance:  this might be a clue that you in particular don't  want to be infected by this thing!!

The US government definitely screwed up, but some other governments did not screw up.  They took steps early on.  At this point results speak for themselves..

The terrifying and incredibly frustrating thing for me is living in a city that is on the verge of repeating the Italy and New York City experience because of decrees by a governor who ignored his own guidelines. Things are at a critical point here. Could go either way.  I'm not optimistic.


Edited by Baal - 06/25/2020 at 6:46pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Ben, you have lost all credibility when you publicly predicted "less than a 1000 US COVID-19 deaths" by the end of the year. You should apologize to the families of the extra 120,000 deaths that we as a nation have suffered so far by consistently minimizing the threat of this disease even today. This is really unfortunate and I hope more people take it seriously. As a nation, we have reached a critical point with almost irreparable economic and public health repercussions.

C'mon RR, he was only off by a bit more than two orders of magnitude.  So far.


Edited by Baal - 06/25/2020 at 6:51pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Ben, you have lost all credibility when you publicly predicted "less than a 1000 US COVID-19 deaths" by the end of the year. You should apologize to the families of the extra 120,000 deaths that we as a nation have suffered so far by consistently minimizing the threat of this disease even today. This is really unfortunate and I hope more people take it seriously. As a nation, we have reached a critical point with almost irreparable economic and public health repercussions.

C'mon RR, he was only off by a bit more than two orders of magnitude.  So far.

I wasn't surprised at RR's comment, as I felt he was just looking for a fight anyway, but I'm disappointed at your last couple of posts because I thought better of you than that.

In the particular case of my prediction of 1,000 deaths, that was an early gut-guess based on my experiences here in Oregon, and I've long since apologized for it, which you (and RR) know.  Beating up someone over an acknowledged mistake doesn't make you look more qualified, just petty.

Speaking as a former physicist, I'm of course familiar with how science works.  My post was on how science influences public policy, which is clearly something worth reflection.  It's not a question of whether the science is real, but how that science should impact the behavior of human beings. You seem to take it for granted that the results of science should direct our public decisions, but it's not as simple as that.  Even when faced with large numbers of deaths, there are many considerations and priorities, and any given action has many consequences.

I've mostly stayed out this thread the last couple of months for a couple of reasons.  One is that the same material tends to get rehashed a lot; basically people preaching to the choir.  The other is that when a dissenting voice comes along, people tend to respond with disparaging remarks, rather than open discussion.  I don't need you or RR to give me "credibility".  I think your attitudes disqualify you from making that decision.

And now I'll drop out again. so feel free to post whatever nastiness you want.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


In the particular case of my prediction of 1,000 deaths, that was an early gut-guess based on my experiences here in Oregon, and I've long since apologized for it, which you (and RR) know.



That's news to me, Ben. I surely missed your apology. Please repost it here, thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


In the particular case of my prediction of 1,000 deaths, that was an early gut-guess based on my experiences here in Oregon, and I've long since apologized for it, which you (and RR) know.



That's news to me, Ben. I surely missed your apology. Please repost it here, thanks.
You should take Ben's word for it! I may not agree with everything Ben posts here but he is an honorable member.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:


In the particular case of my prediction of 1,000 deaths, that was an early gut-guess based on my experiences here in Oregon, and I've long since apologized for it, which you (and RR) know.



That's news to me, Ben. I surely missed your apology. Please repost it here, thanks.
You should take Ben's word for it! I may not agree with everything Ben posts here but he is an honorable member.


I wish I could, but he just said "I know" he apologized, which is a lie.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 10:20pm
ben, you wrote this:

"Within the scientific community, it's always been my experience that they collectively have more confidence in their current understanding of any particular scientific question than is warranted by past successes and failures.  In other words, scientists are always sure they have it right now, even if they had it wrong last year"

In the context of this crisis, what we have seen has generally been the opposite.  For the record, yes, you did post being a bit embarrassed by your absurd 1,000 dead prediction. I'm not sure if you learned anything from it though.  The problem was that you weren't able to critically evaluate your assumptions.

Look, I get that people get tired of being scolded by people like Fauci (although essentially every other scientist working in infectious disease would say the same thing).  But make no mistake, we are seeing what happens when people ignore basic biology.  

I also understand that people need to get on with their lives as best as they can.  Masks are the only thing that could make some semblance of normalcy remotely possible.  And yet some people take pride in not wearing them.  Undoubtedly commenters like Donn Olsen are in that group. He has certainly not been shy about where he stands.  In my opinion  it is a weird form of tribalism and totally irrational, but maybe that's  just me being an arrogant scientist.

I've tried as best I can here to provide information people can use. Gawd knows I'm in enough zoom meetings where we discuss how to run a medical school in this environment.  

But I'm pretty much done talking about it here.  Follow my advice or not. Up to you.  

People have questions, they can PM me.  Some have.


Edited by Baal - 06/25/2020 at 10:21pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 11:08pm
As for Donn, this is the guy who referred to Trump pushing chloroquine as a scientific breakthrough.

The capabilities of detecting the sarcasm embedded in a repeated utterance of a completely preposterous statement by the President of the United States varies by person, with those ready to attempt to salvage a point of humor (as all the leading comedians have and are currently) to be the best so positioned, far better positioned than those preferring hostility as the primary tone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

As for Donn, this is the guy who referred to Trump pushing chloroquine as a scientific breakthrough.

The capabilities of detecting the sarcasm embedded in a repeated utterance of a completely preposterous statement by the President of the United States varies by person, with those ready to attempt to salvage a point of humor (as all the leading comedians have and are currently) to be the best so positioned, far better positioned than those preferring hostility as the primary tone.


That's comedy gold. LOL


Edited by roundrobin - 06/25/2020 at 11:35pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/25/2020 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

They are "suggesting that the real-life outbreak was more than 80 times larger than the one reported...A surge of undiagnosed cases in March could lower that fatality rate to between 0.07 and 1.4%



If you closely follow what's happening in Brazil and Mexico you will find a much higher fatality rate.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 12:56am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

They are "suggesting that the real-life outbreak was more than 80 times larger than the one reported...A surge of undiagnosed cases in March could lower that fatality rate to between 0.07 and 1.4%



If you closely follow what's happening in Brazil and Mexico you will find a much higher fatality rate.
and that would be in line with respective infrastructures?


You are quite correct. Early testing, isolation and treatment is key.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 8:24am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

They are "suggesting that the real-life outbreak was more than 80 times larger than the one reported...A surge of undiagnosed cases in March could lower that fatality rate to between 0.07 and 1.4%



If you closely follow what's happening in Brazil and Mexico you will find a much higher fatality rate.

Roundrobin, for perspective how old are you?  What risk class would you be placed in based on the disease profile?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 10:00am
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

As for Donn, this is the guy who referred to Trump pushing chloroquine as a scientific breakthrough.

The capabilities of detecting the sarcasm embedded in a repeated utterance of a completely preposterous statement by the President of the United States varies by person, with those ready to attempt to salvage a point of humor (as all the leading comedians have and are currently) to be the best so positioned, far better positioned than those preferring hostility as the primary tone.

Ok, I clearly owe you an apology for reacting to that ONE post.  Beyond that, no.


Edited by Baal - 06/26/2020 at 10:01am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

ben

You really should stop posting about Covid-19 epidemiology. Also you clearly dont know how scientists actually think and approach problems.  Scientists are data driven and take a critical approach to data.  It's why we do randomized double blind placebo controlled clinical trials for things like chloroquine instead of "using the force".  
.......
haha, do you copy that from your research methodology textbook? C'mon, please explain all WHO suggestions then. Unlike you, I went to graduate school instead of professional school. So, I know few BS ways on how to represent data to fit the narrative. I believe a lot of scientists are in the dark because they know nothing about the coronvirus that first started in Wuhan, China. They are doing "try and error" now :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

As for Donn, this is the guy who referred to Trump pushing chloroquine as a scientific breakthrough.

The capabilities of detecting the sarcasm embedded in a repeated utterance of a completely preposterous statement by the President of the United States varies by person, with those ready to attempt to salvage a point of humor (as all the leading comedians have and are currently) to be the best so positioned, far better positioned than those preferring hostility as the primary tone.

Ok, I clearly owe you an apology for reacting to that ONE post.  Beyond that, no.

Permit me to say I very much appreciate your quality efforts to assist in our understandings on this topic.

Thanks!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

ben

You really should stop posting about Covid-19 epidemiology. Also you clearly dont know how scientists actually think and approach problems.  Scientists are data driven and take a critical approach to data.  It's why we do randomized double blind placebo controlled clinical trials for things like chloroquine instead of "using the force".  
.......
haha, do you copy that from your research methodology textbook? C'mon, please explain all WHO suggestions then. Unlike you, I went to graduate school instead of professional school. So, I know few BS ways on how to represent data to fit the narrative. I believe a lot of scientists are in the dark because they know nothing about the coronvirus that first started in Wuhan, China. They are doing "try and error" now :)


Screw the WHO.  I'm not sure the people who have created the disaster there are scientists.  For the record,  I also went to graduate school.  I didn't go to professional school.  I've published about 120 peer-reviewed articles.

Also, for the record, I want the forum members to be safe.


Edited by Baal - 06/26/2020 at 1:01pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

ben

You really should stop posting about Covid-19 epidemiology. Also you clearly dont know how scientists actually think and approach problems.  Scientists are data driven and take a critical approach to data.  It's why we do randomized double blind placebo controlled clinical trials for things like chloroquine instead of "using the force".  
.......
haha, do you copy that from your research methodology textbook? C'mon, please explain all WHO suggestions then. Unlike you, I went to graduate school instead of professional school. So, I know few BS ways on how to represent data to fit the narrative. I believe a lot of scientists are in the dark because they know nothing about the coronvirus that first started in Wuhan, China. They are doing "try and error" now :)


Screw the WHO.  I'm not sure the people who have created the disaster there are scientists.  For the record,  I also went to graduate school.  I didn't go to professional school.  I've published about 120 peer-reviewed articles.

Also, for the record, I want the forum members to be safe.

The WHO is one of my favorite organizations.  They declared meat a carcinogen.   22 experts from 10 countries...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

ben

You really should stop posting about Covid-19 epidemiology. Also you clearly dont know how scientists actually think and approach problems.  Scientists are data driven and take a critical approach to data.  It's why we do randomized double blind placebo controlled clinical trials for things like chloroquine instead of "using the force".  
.......
haha, do you copy that from your research methodology textbook? C'mon, please explain all WHO suggestions then. Unlike you, I went to graduate school instead of professional school. So, I know few BS ways on how to represent data to fit the narrative. I believe a lot of scientists are in the dark because they know nothing about the coronvirus that first started in Wuhan, China. They are doing "try and error" now :)


Screw the WHO.  I'm not sure the people who have created the disaster there are scientists.  For the record,  I also went to graduate school.  I didn't go to professional school.  I've published about 120 peer-reviewed articles.

Also, for the record, I want the forum members to be safe.

I love this BAAL. We scientists have an obligation to speak out against (and point out) ignorance.

As I wrote on my FB thread earlier today: 

I am appalled by the lack of respect and even hatred that science is facing from the public. It used to be that people had a modicum of self-reflection, realizing their own limitations, and quietly listened when subject matter experts made statements. Now every keyboard warrior seems to have multiple PhD degrees from Google or Wiki University. It takes MANY years of training learning how to evaluate sources, how to extract the most pertinent information from scholarly articles, how to critically evaluate this body of information, how to formulate a hypothesis or conclusion. There's no shame in not being able to do that. I can watch YouTube videos on house-building and read Wikipedia articles on it, but that will not lead me to say that I know how to build houses, give suggestions to experts, or even criticize the experts and tell them that they don't have no idea what they're doing. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2020 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

I am appalled by the lack of respect and even hatred that science is facing from the public. It used to be that people had a modicum of self-reflection, realizing their own limitations, and quietly listened when subject matter experts made statements. Now every keyboard warrior seems to have multiple PhD degrees from Google or Wiki University. It takes MANY years of training learning how to evaluate sources, how to extract the most pertinent information from scholarly articles, how to critically evaluate this body of information, how to formulate a hypothesis or conclusion. There's no shame in not being able to do that. I can watch YouTube videos on house-building and read Wikipedia articles on it, but that will not lead me to say that I know how to build houses, give suggestions to experts, or even criticize the experts and tell them that they don't have no idea what they're doing. 
 
Thank you for this, Patrick! I'm a scientist too and there is a reason we had to got to school for so long. Clap
My wife often does this too on a lot of subjects: "why don't you google it or watch some YouTube videos on it?!". I might be smart but that doesn't mean I can become an expert in let's financial or legal matters by watching YouTube videos. Now my wife has to undergo some minor surgery so I offered her I could buy a textbook and watch some YouTube videos and do it myself to save a ton of money. I think she understood and wants to stick with the experienced surgeon...


Edited by Matt Pimple - 06/26/2020 at 6:22pm
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