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Why do the Chinese top players use H3???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2015 at 9:49am
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

there is a pro version of Tenergy. it even has a different laser marking on the sponge.<mytubeelement id="myTubeRelayElementToTab" ="relayPrefs" =""loadBundle":true"></mytubeelement>

DHS already has a HUGE market in China. In fact, 95% (i swear to god) of chinese AMATEUR players play Hurricane  

which fact do you swear on?

Quote
The "national" versions are the rubbers that are cut closest to the center of the big sheet of rubber made in the factories. But the "national" versions are only what the average players in the CNT use. What people like Ma Long use are custom made hurricanes, which are rubbers made specifically to what the player wants. For eg, Liu Shiwen's hurricane is a little different from Ding Ning's. Liu's hurricane is more elastic, while Ding's is slightly tackier. It's all based on the style (this info I got from an inside source here in China). But yes, the world champ IS using the best quality hurricane. 

DHS won't give other players the top-notch hurricanes because they want chinese players to win lol...shouldn't this be obvious haha

There is obviously no evidence indeed.

Edited by chop4ever - 07/12/2015 at 9:49am
There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2015 at 9:53am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

I just like to see the real quotes and not guesses, but you go ahead and boost your blue sponge something and buy your made to order viscaria and you pick the heavy tenergy that allows you to spin better, you use the same chair that they use, you get Mikes Nikes and jump a metre high
and in two years you will telling others to just practice

My job is TT, I have a shop, Im a ITTF coach, National selector, I see and talk about these things on a daily basis, I like to know what pro's do, I have customers buying the black sheet out of the cheap 729 twinpack because it has a blue sponge, we all want to play better, 

but at the end of the day having the same gear is 1 thing, then who knows and knowing what they use ,what sponge, what thickness, when they use it , how often, how many coats, how many days do they leave before using, do they have more than 1 blade, when do they discard rubber, who does it for them, how do players not get caught, those are the questions someone should ask a pro?


There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2015 at 10:59pm
I'm speechless...I'm offering information that many people outside China would like to know but I get attacked this way? lol People sure are skeptical. The head coach of the Shanghai team told me all this, if anybody is curious enough to know. I don't know what kind of evidence I can give lol. It's not like I can walk up to Ma Long and say "hey dude, peel off your rubber so that I can take a picture of it and upload to a forum full of skeptics." It's up to anybody to believe what they want, and honestly, this is common knowledge in the teams here in China. That's why players in the provincial teams are trying to make friends with national team players: they can get rubbers that can't be obtained from the provincial teams. 

Why is it so hard for people to believe this? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 12:14am
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

I'm speechless...I'm offering information that many people outside China would like to know but I get attacked this way? lol People sure are skeptical. The head coach of the Shanghai team told me all this, if anybody is curious enough to know. I don't know what kind of evidence I can give lol. It's not like I can walk up to Ma Long and say "hey dude, peel off your rubber so that I can take a picture of it and upload to a forum full of skeptics." It's up to anybody to believe what they want, and honestly, this is common knowledge in the teams here in China. That's why players in the provincial teams are trying to make friends with national team players: they can get rubbers that can't be obtained from the provincial teams. <mytubeelement id="myTubeRelayElementToTab" ="relayPrefs" =""loadBundle":true"></mytubeelement>

Why is it so hard for people to believe this? 

Because, that such a belief kills our pocket for nothing and makes DHS to be super rich.
There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tack_and_grip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 2:18am
My two cents:

Tacky and grippy (i.e. jap/euro) rubbers are different.  But TT is a game of more than just rubbers.  So you can say that the choice of rubbers is both for a reason and a matter of habit.

I believe DHS do manufacture different versions/grades of the same make.  But what difference it makes and how vary from person to to person.  I guess it's like $500 vs $5K DSLR cameras Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stevenjlyang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 5:49am
1. they are accustomed to h3
2. they are sponsored by DHS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 7:04am
lol chop4ever, DHS never meant for provincial/national versions to be used by the public...

and well said tack_and_grip :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 8:39am
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

lol chop4ever, DHS never meant for provincial/national versions to be used by the public...

and well said tack_and_grip :)


I for one am not attacking you. Just discussing. Can we agree to disagree? I suspect the truth is probably a little bit of what you are saying, but I still do not believe that any European/Japanese team or players could not get the best DHS sheets available if they really wanted them. I suspect the Chinese know that their dominance is not based on equipment and I doubt the government is blocking such "classified' top secret rubber. 

I certainly agree with others that H3 is used primarily due to contracts/sponsorship and by the fact that top players from China have used it in a the past and we all want to use what the stars use.

I also doubt that there is a higher grade tenergy only available to the Japanese team:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 9:21am
Originally posted by stevenjlyang stevenjlyang wrote:

1. they are accustomed to h3
2. they are sponsored by DHS


To which I would add they are accustomed to rubbers in the same general category H3 from a very young age. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 9:31am
Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

I'm speechless...I'm offering information that many people outside China would like to know but I get attacked this way? lol People sure are skeptical. The head coach of the Shanghai team told me all this, if anybody is curious enough to know. I don't know what kind of evidence I can give lol. It's not like I can walk up to Ma Long and say "hey dude, peel off your rubber so that I can take a picture of it and upload to a forum full of skeptics." It's up to anybody to believe what they want, and honestly, this is common knowledge in the teams here in China. That's why players in the provincial teams are trying to make friends with national team players: they can get rubbers that can't be obtained from the provincial teams. 

Why is it so hard for people to believe this? 


I for one don't have that much trouble believing it about DHS and CNT, but I just don't think it matters all that much (for the question that the OP raised).  At the end of the day it's still a Hurricane rubber and as such it will be very different from what would be comfortable for any European player or any player who has always played with Japanese rubbers. 

Even if the provincial rubbers can't get the same rubbers that are available to CNT players, most of these players also use some other form of Hurrican on their FH side.  Why????  Because they grew up playing with that kind of thing. 

As for top secret Tenergy only available to Japan team, I seriously would doubt that they would not give Timo Boll pretty much whatever he wants (or any of their other elite sponsored players).  They have a personal commercial relationship with him that goes back decades. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 9:54am
Im with MLfan here and from the beginning its no secret the CNT gets special H3s and H2s. If you cant have that sink into your head then you live in another dimension where commercial freedom is allowed.

All the "national" H3s out there are 99% fake. If anyone happens to get a REAL one, its either gifted or sold from a CNT member. Makes you wanna be brothers with the CNT dont ya:D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 9:55am
...and yea a REAL H3 national makes a world's difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:21am
It makes such a world of difference that Chinese players who can't get the National rubbers still use the Provincial and Commercial rubbers instead of Tenergy.

In the end, you use what you get the best results and subjective feel with. The whole Coke formula secrecy thing is unneeded to answer the question. You are still going to beat and lose to at least 95% of the same players you beat and lose to even f you adapt hour current technique to a new rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:31am
trust me on this, NO Chinese team members use commercial DHS H3s. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:35am
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

trust me on this, NO Chinese team members use commercial DHS H3s. 



So you mean they have never used anything but National all their life? And if they forget their paddle at home and go see a friend who has a n H3 commercial hanging around, they will not even knock around with the H3 commercial because they have no idea how to play with it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:42am
you and others need to stop the nick picks. chill.

I am talking about in general terms here. In their official trainings and such..... 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:51am
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

you and others need to stop the nick picks. chill.

I am talking about in general terms here. In their official trainings and such..... 



How many national DHS rubbers have you used ahsq?  And I don't mean the "centre of the sheet" nationals MLFan mentioned - I mean the super-secret custom-made designed-by-Elvis-aliens-and-delivered-by-bigfoot-in-a-UPS-uniform nationals?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:57am
0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rxng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 10:58am
I think the answer is simple:

1. H3 is a good FH rubber with great features ( forget the QC of H3 in the market )
2. H3 fits the style of FH of the Chinese players
3. Most of them use H3 for FH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:15am
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

...and yea a REAL H3 national makes a world's difference.
??? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:16am
I can also say that no Chinese players are using Tibhar blades or 1 ply hinokis. What does that mean? That they only use blades that the rest of us will never be able to get? Rubber is different so I am being a bit facetious, but those guys have adapted to what they use. Samsonov has been able to survive in the top 15 without Tenergy. There is only so much you can give the rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:23am
ask me this question 5 year later when I befriend ML.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:23am
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.

Me too!  Life is sad.  Much crying,

But anyway, the CNT/DHS threads always go down this route.  People state things without personal experience or proof, and the doubters must be cray cray, no?

Personally, I can see that in any big batch of rubbers DHS make there could be better cuts than others, or sheets which fail QC and fall down the National-Provincial-Commercial slope.  Makes sense.

I can also picture custom runs - softer topsheets, harder sponges, tackiness adjustments.  Also possible.

But as much as that seems possible to me, I wouldn't state it as fact because I lack proof.  And proof is incredibly hard to provide on a forum like this, even if you had it.  If you posted a pic of ML's custom H3 right now, how would we know it isn't just a cheap knock-off?  What would people accept anyway?  I'd take video footage of Ma Long showing us his custom H3 Blue Sponge and explaining how he specifies the properties for DHS.  Not going to happen though, is it?  So skeptical responses to MLFan's posts are inevitable.

Also, knowing what we know and what we don't know, I don't know how anyone can even state with authority how different ML's ninja custom H3 is to others of the National/Provincial/Commercial variety.  My gut feel is - not so much, just tailored in slight ways, not a massive departure from the H3 family as a whole.  Not a "world away".  The main difference is more likely to be the level of boosting applied IMO rather than some magical stuff baked into the rubber itself, but that's just my random baseless statement of the day.

About the OT - my opinion is that the CNT use H3 because there is a philosophy at work behind their equipment selection, and that is why you don't see many europeans using it.  The whole mentality of the high-level chinese cultural approach to TT is brutal, full-body, attack, crush, big swings, incredible footwork, bang bang bang.  And this is tied to their selection of H3-type as their FH rubber.  Put H3 (of any variety) onto a high level euro pro's blade and they would struggle to generate speed.  Put T05 onto the CNT's forehands and they'd be blasting everything long.  Given time they'd all adjust (and the european would likely injure themselves doing so) of course.  But for the CNT it's symbiotic - they use H3 because their technique and game mentality is built around its use.  And it's obviously a successful arrangement - if it didn't work then they'd be using something else which did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

...and yea a REAL H3 national makes a world's difference.
??? Wink

sorry if I gave the impression that I used one. 

I have used the commercial H3s, they are lousy in every aspect. No way in hell would the CNT dare use them to excel in any competition. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:27am
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

...and yea a REAL H3 national makes a world's difference.
??? Wink

sorry if I gave the impression that I used one. 

I have used the commercial H3s, they are lousy in every aspect. No way in hell would the CNT dare use them to excel in any competition. 

You being unable to use a commercial H3 doesn't convince me.  Sorry.

edit - did you boost yours?


Edited by AndySmith - 07/13/2015 at 11:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:34am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.

Me too!  Life is sad.  Much crying,

But anyway, the CNT/DHS threads always go down this route.  People state things without personal experience or proof, and the doubters must be cray cray, no?

Personally, I can see that in any big batch of rubbers DHS make there could be better cuts than others, or sheets which fail QC and fall down the National-Provincial-Commercial slope.  Makes sense.

I can also picture custom runs - softer topsheets, harder sponges, tackiness adjustments.  Also possible.

But as much as that seems possible to me, I wouldn't state it as fact because I lack proof.  And proof is incredibly hard to provide on a forum like this, even if you had it.  If you posted a pic of ML's custom H3 right now, how would we know it isn't just a cheap knock-off?  What would people accept anyway?  I'd take video footage of Ma Long showing us his custom H3 Blue Sponge and explaining how he specifies the properties for DHS.  Not going to happen though, is it?  So skeptical responses to MLFan's posts are inevitable.

Also, knowing what we know and what we don't know, I don't know how anyone can even state with authority how different ML's ninja custom H3 is to others of the National/Provincial/Commercial variety.  My gut feel is - not so much, just tailored in slight ways, not a massive departure from the H3 family as a whole.  Not a "world away".  The main difference is more likely to be the level of boosting applied IMO rather than some magical stuff baked into the rubber itself, but that's just my random baseless statement of the day.

About the OT - my opinion is that the CNT use H3 because there is a philosophy at work behind their equipment selection, and that is why you don't see many europeans using it.  The whole mentality of the high-level chinese cultural approach to TT is brutal, full-body, attack, crush, big swings, incredible footwork, bang bang bang.  And this is tied to their selection of H3-type as their FH rubber.  Put H3 (of any variety) onto a high level euro pro's blade and they would struggle to generate speed.  Put T05 onto the CNT's forehands and they'd be blasting everything long.  Given time they'd all adjust (and the european would likely injure themselves doing so) of course.  But for the CNT it's symbiotic - they use H3 because their technique and game mentality is built around its use.  And it's obviously a successful arrangement - if it didn't work then they'd be using something else which did.

I get your points. you failed to mention something MLfan mentioned. There is much political involvements inside the CNT, control gov't and DHS. something is in the grey area.

ANYWAYS, each person in this forum has beliefs on his own. Some side with nonexclusive customs, some side with exclusive customs. I think I will put this topic behind me as I dont benefit with arguments online. 

Its time to play PP with what I have. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahsq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:39am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

0 obviously, i cannot get any as I am not a CNT member, lol no where near that level.
Originally posted by ahsq ahsq wrote:

...and yea a REAL H3 national makes a world's difference.
??? Wink

sorry if I gave the impression that I used one. 

I have used the commercial H3s, they are lousy in every aspect. No way in hell would the CNT dare use them to excel in any competition. 

You being unable to use a commercial H3 doesn't convince me.  Sorry.

edit - did you boost yours?

I wont convince you until you play with me. sometimes having a skill set elevates a person's attitude on others, much like those old ancient chinese kung fu masters "oooh I can whop you into a pulp"...I say to them"and I have an uzi."

no. QC was 1/10.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:41am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by MLfan MLfan wrote:

lol chop4ever, DHS never meant for provincial/national versions to be used by the public...

and well said tack_and_grip :)


I for one am not attacking you. Just discussing. Can we agree to disagree? I suspect the truth is probably a little bit of what you are saying, but I still do not believe that any European/Japanese team or players could not get the best DHS sheets available if they really wanted them. I suspect the Chinese know that their dominance is not based on equipment and I doubt the government is blocking such "classified' top secret rubber. 

I certainly agree with others that H3 is used primarily due to contracts/sponsorship and by the fact that top players from China have used it in a the past and we all want to use what the stars use.

I also doubt that there is a higher grade tenergy only available to the Japanese team:)

Haha, no problem. Everybody's entitled to his/her beliefs. The CNT use H3 because of spin, not because of contracts/sponsorships/whatnot. The spin that is produced from H3 is harder to block when compared to grippy rubbers because tacky rubbers make the ball go downwards instead of forwards when it hits the table. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42andbackpains Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:51am
I have used a tensor(Adidas P7 & Ultra tenzone sf) when i first started playing again last year and was still using the celluloid ball. Spin was adequate until our club changed to the new polyball. Then i felt like my loops werent as spinny and missing the higher arc. My coach and many of our clubmates use H3 neo. So i changed to H3 neo and felt like OMG, the spin is back as well as the high arc. Problem with H3 is that the rubber is unplayable unboosted. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2015 at 11:57am
If the custom-made H3 aren't that much better, why do the main players of the CNT insist on using them? No CNT player plays with provincial H3, just as no provincial player plays with commercial H3. Boosting can only do so much. Rubbers obviously won't make an average player play really well all of a sudden, but there definitely is a difference between something like provincial and commercial H3. To the skeptics out there, why don't you guys just try it lol...provincial rubbers feel so different compared to commercial ones. 

And the CNT use H3 because of what its spin can do to the ball. Spin produced by H3 makes the ball go downwards, not forwards. Also, service and short game is better due to sticky topsheet. These are the main reasons for using H3. 

As for Timo Boll, I have no idea what tenergy he plays with because I only care about the CNT lol. But it may very well be the tenergy that the japanese team gets. 
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