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3 Tips for Bachhand Topspin against Backspin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 12:41am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

the way I think about it is a mix of both of your conceptions. No, the follow through itself doesn't directly effect the spin on the ball. But yes it does effect the spin on the ball. What does that mean? 
The thing that effects the ball is the stuff that happens on contact. For example the arm speed that you generate leading up to the contact. 
Example: let's say you didn't accelerate before the contact and after the contact you accelerate. That won't change the speed of the ball, cause it happens afterwards.

But the things that happen after the contact effect the ball, just not on a physical level. Hard to word it for me. It is more the physiological aspect of it that in the end effects the things that happen before and on contact. What does that mean?
Example: of course pressing down after the backhand topspin won't bring the ball down on the table. I can't hit the ball and then drag my arm to the left to magically change the direction of the ball. But the important question is "what does this pressing down concept do to my way of acting?" If I think about pressing down afterwards, I'll subconsciously do the stroke differently ( different acceleration, racket angle/position on contact)

This makes sense to me. Your internal idea of your stroke -- what it looks like, what kind of contact is being made, why it does what it does to the ball, etc. -- is connected to what you actually do. Even if your idea and what you actually do aren't the same thing. If it works it works. But I think there's also a real advantage to knowing what's actually happening, especially when it comes to improving shot mechanics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 2:53am
My view is that the ball only feels an effective force broken into normal and tangential components, however in terms of biomechanics when we are combining and coordinating our movements to achieve the highest contact force and speed, it's extremely hard to dissect the sources of force applied if we just look at the contact alone. However because various parts along the biomechanical chain of power accelerate and decelerate at different times to achieve the whip effect, by looking at the backswing and followthrough we are able to know which links in the chain are present or missing. If we change our backswing or followthrough we are essentially tweaking the biomechanical chain to achieve what we want to do for e.g. if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball. If you change to a thinner contact you increase the tangential component and thus increasing spin. If you think of doing follow through to the right for BH you activate waist rotation, but if you do it too much then your applied force goes too much to the side rather than forward which causes a loss in power, so there has to be a balance. If you don't accelerate sequentially then you lose the whip effect, thus reducing your power. 

Edited by blahness - 02/13/2019 at 3:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 3:15am
I would like to point out that good use of pronation/supination was a dirty secret in the badminton and tennis pro circles and wasn't taught in mainstream coaching, it was very much later that it was acknowledged that it was one of the primary sources of power for pros. 

It's actually the same for table tennis, with many coaches telling you to close the bat angle after contact but neglect to explain the actual physical mechanisms behind that ie pronation/supination. Test it out, you can't physically close the bat angle without pronation or supinating your arm. 

So some scientifically minded observe correctly that the followthrough should not affect the ball, however the truth is that the followthrough is evidence of what happened during contact because the need to decelerate after contact. For e.g. if you never close your bat angle after hitting the ball, you never pronated/supinated. 

By timing the pronation or supination well you likely have increased the tangential component of force going into the ball which generated more topspin which helped to "bring the ball down". However if you actively rely on it you have to be sure you have amazing timing otherwise it will result in  many mishits, which is why coaches usually ask students to keep it simple ie use the same bat angle.


Edited by blahness - 02/13/2019 at 3:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:05am
I have little/no problem with what you have written, blahness.  Most people learn their strokes by watching others and copying them so I don't think telling people to keep the same angle is what people usually do (they don't).

My concern is when someone says something trivially true without explain what they think its practical implications for how you should play TT are.  CComparing the after motions of a serve or a wiggly to the follow contact and follow through of a fast spinny loop is ludicrous.  Of course all that matter is what happened at the ball.  But as you have pointed out and which is my main point, elements of the stroke need preparation and completion to create their effect at the ball and a naive focus on just what happens at the ball will make it harder to learn the stroke.  The simplest way I explain it to people is that a full stroke is a path. Taking the racket through that path has an effect.  Don't let an obsession with what happens at contact blind you to the fact that what happens before and after plays a huge role so you likely need a full stroke to learn the proper path.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:07am
No physicist would claim that what happens before and after contact does not affect what happens to the ball. Those are the equivalent of flat earthers not physicists. The bat does not teleport into contact then immediately out of contact.

Edited by FruitLoop - 02/13/2019 at 6:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:43am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

No physicist would claim that what happens before and after contact does not affect what happens to the ball. Those are the equivalent of flat earthers not physicists. The bat does not teleport into contact then immediately out of contact.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:44am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

No physicist would claim that what happens before and after contact does not affect what happens to the ball. Those are the equivalent of flat earthers not physicists. The bat does not teleport into contact then immediately out of contact.

Yes, this is true.  What I really mean is that you need to play table tennis at a high enough level to appreciate the kind of models you properly need to explain the important variables.  Saying that pressing down after contact is useless is the kind of thing that a physicist would say if they don't play at a high enough level to realize that pressing down after contact affects how the stroke is prepared before contact and what happens at contact.  It is just simpler to say the swing is a path.  But I am more interested in helping people become better players than being extremely precise about the physics. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 7:15am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

No physicist would claim that what happens before and after contact does not affect what happens to the ball. Those are the equivalent of flat earthers not physicists. The bat does not teleport into contact then immediately out of contact.
.

Most  TTplayer-physicists, physicists, engineers, biologists, artists, painters etc would understand the advice in the message.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 11:03am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/13/2019 at 12:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/13/2019 at 6:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.

Agreed, due to biomechanics there's only very few optimal ways of producing maximum rackethead speed. There's slight variations however the basic principles remain the same. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/13/2019 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.

Agreed, due to biomechanics there's only very few optimal ways of producing maximum rackethead speed. There's slight variations however the basic principles remain the same. 
I have to disagree with all the agreement. Here's the question stated by NextLevel: "The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal." You all say you can't, but of course you can. One example to make this clear: Two backhands can be identical until just after the moment of ball contact, so shot quality will be identical. After contact the follow through can be made short for one (by tensing up and stopping the racket as quickly as possible) and long for the other (by remaining relaxed and letting momentum carry the wrist snap/supination/arm extension much further). Same shot quality, different follow through.

I use this example because I've been told that a longer more relaxed follow through often allows quicker recovery than a shorter more abrupt follow through. Surprised me, but I've been experimenting with it on backhand counters and I think it's true. It seems like tensing up in order to stop short and then having to recover from a dead stop can (often but not always) take more time and energy than recovery from a longer but more relaxed follow through. This is what suggested to me that the exaggerated downward follow through of Wang Hao and FZD might be less involved with shot quality and more for faster recovery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:26am
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

if you think of closing the bat angle after contact, what you're actually doing is activating arm pronation and/or supination to increase power transferred to the ball.

That's right. Consciously supinating after contact can help you do it during contact. Changes in the kinetic chain before and after contact can make it harder or easier to hit a particular shot. But no one particular kinetic chain is necessary to hit a particular shot. You can get the same ball spin, speed, and trajectory with a shorter, longer or differently shaped backswing or follow through. You can start the chain from your legs, core, or shoulder. You can finish abruptly just after contact or let your wrist snap through and extend and supinate your arm. But the only part of the swing that counts to the ball is during the few milliseconds of contact. Straw man arguments aside, not everyone knows this fact which is helpful to know. While there's definitely bad technique that makes something harder, and wrong technique that makes it impossible, there's also more than one right way to produce almost any tt shot.

"There is more than one right way to produce almost any TT shot".

This is actually not the point of stressing the importance of the follow through.  The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal.
You can't. There's a reason why a follow through is like it is. If the acceleration and so on is the same in both strokes, then it's impossible to have a different follow through. Or at least significantly different. If someone has to do half of the follow through he normally does, then he won't be able to apply the same things before the contact. 
Just an example to make it more visual I guess...
Example: let's say you are sprinting to a finish line that is marked with a cone. A second cone is somewhere way back behind the first cone to mark the point where he has to stop. The runner is going to run over the finish line with a certain speed. Now change the second cone and put it closer to the finish line. The runner again has to stop at the second cone. It is now impossible for the runner to cross the finish line with the same speed and be able o stop at the second cone. In order for him to stop there, he needs to let loose of the speed a bit if he wants to stop at the second cone. Assuming the cones are close to the finish line (just like the follow through in table tennis).

I agree 100%. My complaints are because these statements like "follow through doesn't matter" confused me when I first heard them as an adult beginner a few years ago.  Later when I saw the kinds of players who were making them, I realized I should never have been listening to them.

I would also argue that if you swing with a turning force to bring the paddle down, the swing effect is different from if you swing with a turning force  to finish higher and recover after the stroke downward.  That is why acting like where Wang Hao is swinging towards in the videos from zeio has no effect on the stroke shows an impractical approach to TT.
" follow through doesn't matter" is always a wrong statement no matter how you twist and turn it. If a follow through is too long, then the recovery will be bad. So shortening the stroke is a good idea. If you have no problem recovering in time, then it doesn't matter what you do for the recovery. Might as well do a backflip in between shots. But the "doesn't matter" statement is total horsesh*t. I guess one really have to be new to the game to not question it. And I guess to make such a statement, one really has to never thought of table tennis in a slightly more intellectual way.

Agreed, due to biomechanics there's only very few optimal ways of producing maximum rackethead speed. There's slight variations however the basic principles remain the same. 
I have to disagree with all the agreement. Here's the question stated by NextLevel: "The question is whether you can get someone to use the same technique to produce the same quality of TT shot by starting the racket one way and following through in more than one way (in one stroke/swing), all other things being equal." You all say you can't, but of course you can. One example to make this clear: Two backhands can be identical until just after the moment of ball contact, so shot quality will be identical. After contact the follow through can be made short for one (by tensing up and stopping the racket as quickly as possible) and long for the other (by remaining relaxed and letting momentum carry the wrist snap/supination/arm extension much further). Same shot quality, different follow through.

I use this example because I've been told that a longer more relaxed follow through often allows quicker recovery than a shorter more abrupt follow through. Surprised me, but I've been experimenting with it on backhand counters and I think it's true. It seems like tensing up in order to stop short and then having to recover from a dead stop can (often but not always) take more time and energy than recovery from a longer but more relaxed follow through. This is what suggested to me that the exaggerated downward follow through of Wang Hao and FZD might be less involved with shot quality and more for faster recovery.

Okay.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 12:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 2:05am
@ slowhand I disagree. I thought it would be clear out of the discussion we all had the last couple of days. You say that you can do the exact same stroke (all things being the same) before the contact, but can shorten the stroke by tensing up right after the contact. If you do that, then you'll actually tense up a little before the contact as well, reducing your shot quality on contact. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 4:05am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

@ slowhand I disagree. I thought it would be clear out of the discussion we all had the last couple of days. You say that you can do the exact same stroke (all things being the same) before the contact, but can shorten the stroke by tensing up right after the contact. If you do that, then you'll actually tense up a little before the contact as well, reducing your shot quality on contact. 

Certainly you can add tension too soon and effect shot quality. I agree this is unavoidable is you try to stop your follow through instantly after contact. But the example only involves shortening follow through, not eliminating it, by adding the tension after contact. I think you're suggesting that there's no way to add tension after contact without also adding tension before contact. Maybe because you believe tt strokes are too fast and human reflexes too slow to shorten the follow through without doing this? Or because it's psychologically impossible to shorten follow through without unconsciously tensing up before it's physically necessary? I disagree with both those ideas but maybe I misunderstand what you mean. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 6:54am
yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 7:28am
Back to the current topic....

I noticed that the OPs technique has the elbow quite close to the waist, whereas most modern BHs have elbows more stuck in front of the body... 

What's the advantages and disadvantages of the different elbow positions?

The other thing I was always a bit unsure is the bat tip direction during contact, do you contact with the bat pointing to the side, bottom or top, which is optimal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 7:46am
One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:32am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!

It is spinning over the ball to finish downwards .  The stroke is circular so the start of it is forwards and over the ball but it finishes to the side of you.  It is similar to the trajectory of a forehand topspin.  The key thing here is that you don't want the stroke to be going upwards forever if it is topspin.  Some people thing Wang Hao is finishing where he is because of recovery, but the truth is that look at an upside down U or semi-circle, it is the stroke path to handle the incoming spin.  He isn't so much producing strong topspin (which he will do with any looping stroke because he is Wang Hao) but trapping and relooping strong topspin.  IT might not even be "pure" topspin he is producing but the key is to produce a quality shot.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 8:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.

I agree with you 100% obviously.  I hate bringing in experience with table tennis as a factor in these discussions, but often, I find that this is what is happening on the internet in my experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:37am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Back to the current topic....

I noticed that the OPs technique has the elbow quite close to the waist, whereas most modern BHs have elbows more stuck in front of the body... 

What's the advantages and disadvantages of the different elbow positions?

The other thing I was always a bit unsure is the bat tip direction during contact, do you contact with the bat pointing to the side, bottom or top, which is optimal?

Elbow to the side of the body produces more leverage/torque and also improves control of racket angles on shots.  I don't think there is any advantage to elbow being to close to the body other than just being easy to do (some might call it lazy).  If someone was looking for more quality from OP, he might ask OP to move that elbow out a little.

PS - I Watched the video and I didn't see anything wrong with the elbow position of the OP coach.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 8:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 10:12am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:39pm
That's why I'm saying to play the ball "straight". This is of course only possible if you take the ball with good timing. To trap the ball you can do this circular movement like want Hao Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.

This is actually quite true as well all things being equal as long as the stroke is a single swing.  A lot of the stroke speed is gained on the quality of the backswing.  That is why circular or whip motions to gain acceleration on the backswing to add speed to the forward swing are common in high level table tennis.  You aren't going to accelerate enough to have a good follow through without a good backswing. 

It would help to post video of your experience with follow through and see whether you are producing quite the same ball.  I can post my experience and I can show it makes a lot of difference. 


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.

This is actually quite true as well all things being equal as long as the stroke is a single swing.  A lot of the stroke speed is gained on the quality of the backswing.  That is why circular or whip motions to gain acceleration on the backswing to add speed to the forward swing are common in high level table tennis.  You aren't going to accelerate enough to have a good follow through without a good backswing. 

It would help to post video of your experience with follow through and see whether you are producing quite the same ball.  I can post my experience and I can show it makes a lot of difference. 
It's an interesting contention and you could be right. Maybe a whip action bh is short and fast enough that the follow through is essentially predetermined by what you do before contact. I'll definitely think about this as I'm training but unfortunately won't post video to protect online anonymity. So not fair to request your video but I'd be interested in seeing anything you posted.
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