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3 Tips for Bachhand Topspin against Backspin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 12:39pm
That's why I'm saying to play the ball "straight". This is of course only possible if you take the ball with good timing. To trap the ball you can do this circular movement like want Hao Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.

This is actually quite true as well all things being equal as long as the stroke is a single swing.  A lot of the stroke speed is gained on the quality of the backswing.  That is why circular or whip motions to gain acceleration on the backswing to add speed to the forward swing are common in high level table tennis.  You aren't going to accelerate enough to have a good follow through without a good backswing. 

It would help to post video of your experience with follow through and see whether you are producing quite the same ball.  I can post my experience and I can show it makes a lot of difference. 


Edited by NextLevel - 02/14/2019 at 1:47pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it's also simple physics I guess. You need a certain amount of time to stop all the force that you produced. It is certainly possible to get the same quality stroke with a shorter follow through, but then everything before contact isn't the same. And I guarantee you, if you're runnin towards a finish line and in the second sprint the wall is suddenly much closer to the finish line, you definitely won't cross the line at the same speed that you had in the first run. Same with table tennis. You just need a certain amount of time distance to stop the power of the stroke.
Thanks, that's clear and reasonable. One final thought as to why I disagree. If it's impossible to shorten follow though then it's also impossible to lengthen it without changing shot quality (otherwise you could shorten the longer follow through). This doesn't match my experience experimenting with different follow throughs but of course I could be mistaken.

This is actually quite true as well all things being equal as long as the stroke is a single swing.  A lot of the stroke speed is gained on the quality of the backswing.  That is why circular or whip motions to gain acceleration on the backswing to add speed to the forward swing are common in high level table tennis.  You aren't going to accelerate enough to have a good follow through without a good backswing. 

It would help to post video of your experience with follow through and see whether you are producing quite the same ball.  I can post my experience and I can show it makes a lot of difference. 
It's an interesting contention and you could be right. Maybe a whip action bh is short and fast enough that the follow through is essentially predetermined by what you do before contact. I'll definitely think about this as I'm training but unfortunately won't post video to protect online anonymity. So not fair to request your video but I'd be interested in seeing anything you posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 3:00pm
why not post a video? We are on a table tennis forum. There's nothing negative about a sports video. You could even delete it after next level sees it. Upload it somewhere and put it on private. You can make it available via a link. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 

Thanks for all the input, so in terms of the racket tip direction, I would think that during contact it should be pointing towards the side, so that you have more room to brush the ball forward till your racket tip points towards the front right? What I understand is against strong topspin you also need a downwards component so you would have to start high and finish downwards, but the essence of the ball contact should remain the same. Against strong topspin it could also be helpful to contact more to the side to avoid the rotation axis in my opinion which helps in controlling strong spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 

Thanks for all the input, so in terms of the racket tip direction, I would think that during contact it should be pointing towards the side, so that you have more room to brush the ball forward till your racket tip points towards the front right? What I understand is against strong topspin you also need a downwards component so you would have to start high and finish downwards, but the essence of the ball contact should remain the same. Against strong topspin it could also be helpful to contact more to the side to avoid the rotation axis in my opinion which helps in controlling strong spin.
It's pretty simple actually. Against topspin you need to go over the ball. Period. Against a topspin shot, you're better of blocking than trying some professional countertopspin. I think you are overthinking the topspin too much. Yes the racket head points towards the side at the beginning of the contact and goes forward during the contact a little. But it's not necessary to finish the wrist so far out. But it depends on your technique. Again the ripping technique would stop the wrist earlier than with the technique where you just throw your arm into the ball. If you were to post a video, then I could give you more useful advice. Videos always help a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One thing i was experimenting around was despite all the emphasis on "sideways movement" on the BH, to produce strong topspin, I think you still have to brush the top half of the ball forward, and your bat tip should point towards the front at the end of the stroke. I believe the sideway movement is more on emphasizing the use of the body, but the essence of the ball contact should still be brushing the top of the ball towards the front, not contacting the ball on the side and then swinging sideways!
try to play the backhand topspin straight. You want to put all the power in a straight line when hitting the ball. The wrist can be stopped quite early in that case. If you look at the wrist position of Lin Gaoliang for example, his wrist doesn't even go to an alignment with his forearm. Everything that goes to the side in your follow through for example, doesn't effect the quality in a positive way. If you think about it that way, then you'll have a better power impact on the backhand.

Better power yes.  But I am not sure you will trap the topspin as well.  But maybe how the shot feels to me is not what I am doing. 

Thanks for all the input, so in terms of the racket tip direction, I would think that during contact it should be pointing towards the side, so that you have more room to brush the ball forward till your racket tip points towards the front right? What I understand is against strong topspin you also need a downwards component so you would have to start high and finish downwards, but the essence of the ball contact should remain the same. Against strong topspin it could also be helpful to contact more to the side to avoid the rotation axis in my opinion which helps in controlling strong spin.
It's pretty simple actually. Against topspin you need to go over the ball. Period. Against a topspin shot, you're better of blocking than trying some professional countertopspin. I think you are overthinking the topspin too much. Yes the racket head points towards the side at the beginning of the contact and goes forward during the contact a little. But it's not necessary to finish the wrist so far out. But it depends on your technique. Again the ripping technique would stop the wrist earlier than with the technique where you just throw your arm into the ball. If you were to post a video, then I could give you more useful advice. Videos always help a lot.

Yes I do placement blocking a lot, it's an integral part of my game, but the main problem I have sometimes is finishing off a weaker shot by the opponent. It's also partly caused by myself being too nice and blocking for everyone, missing the chances to practice my attacking topspins. The problem I have with videos is videos don't capture the "feeling" of the contact which is better communicated via words. You can have the exterior stroke right, but have poor ball quality if your contact is poor. 

I think we essentially agree on the contact mechanism anyway! Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 9:38pm
if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2019 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.

Yes that is what I need, to have the mindset to find a chance to kill the ball... I've started doing this but I'm only having like say a 20-30% accuracy rate compared to 80-90% if I do a simple counter. I wouldn't say my BH lacks qua lity just that it's inconsistent when I start applying more power. I feel like the problem is mostly timing due to lack of practice. It doesn't help that  many  club players are selfish and refuse to block properly. Countering and blocking works well only up to a certain level, after that you'll be punished if you do that because it doesn't pose enough of a threat. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2019 at 12:38am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.

Btw, all of us have deficient technique and think too highly of our technique if that's the bar you're setting, once you play with any professional they will simply cut you down with the simplest of strokes. I saw a match between Brian Pace a very highly rated US player and Fang Bo, he looked like he couldn't loop simple underspin pushes, couldn't receive a simple underspin serve and couldn't return a casual slow loop...must be pretty terrible timing he has! Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2019 at 6:21am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you're having problems finishing off weaker shots, then go into practice games with the mindset to kill every ball that is reasonable. If your backhand lacks quality, then you either don't have the technique down as you think, or you have good technique in theory, but can't apply it on the table since the timing is bad. Also a good technique should include a good timing of the ball.

Btw, all of us have deficient technique and think too highly of our technique if that's the bar you're setting, once you play with any professional they will simply cut you down with the simplest of strokes. I saw a match between Brian Pace a very highly rated US player and Fang Bo, he looked like he couldn't loop simple underspin pushes, couldn't receive a simple underspin serve and couldn't return a casual slow loop...must be pretty terrible timing he has! Wink 
No. You can have a very good technique, even better than a professional and still be worse. And I don't think everyone thinks too highly of their technique. But you found something that can improve your game... "with the simplest of strokes" this is a very good point. Keeping it simple is always important. Do what works and don't overcomplicate things. And yes your consistency might suffer if you try to kill more balls after preparing them with your blocking, but that doesn't matter since it is in practice matches. The point is to program you to attack those balls in real matches. And if you don't practice enough and keep missing backhands that you try to play with power, then don't try that. There's no need to play a powerful backhand topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/15/2019 at 12:16pm
For future reference.


Super slow-mo
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2019 at 6:34am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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