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3 Tips for Bachhand Topspin against Backspin

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    Posted: 02/08/2019 at 6:17pm
3 Tips for Backhand Topspin against Backspin by Chinese Coach
 
https://youtu.be/Q69AyZZy0q4

Edited by nicholasy - 02/08/2019 at 6:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2019 at 1:34pm
Your biomechanics for BH are well ahead of those for your FH. Do you get practice or training on medium BH loops or slow, heavy spin BH loops? I know majority of Korean coaches prefer to train players to fast drive everything, but do you ever get a chance to train those?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicholasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2019 at 3:19am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Your biomechanics for BH are well ahead of those for your FH. Do you get practice or training on medium BH loops or slow, heavy spin BH loops? I know majority of Korean coaches prefer to train players to fast drive everything, but do you ever get a chance to train those?
 
Heavy Spin BH. Yes. I learned it from China & Korea both.
Basiccally, The Method for Heavy Spin BH is almost same between China & Korea.
 
I think, As you mentioned, KOR & CHN coaches are prefer to train the fast one first.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2019 at 3:29am
I saw a video from a German youtuber that works for xiom. He had one of the junior players of the Korean national team in his office and played a bit with him. The junior player gave him some tips for the backhand. What he showed was a complete different technique. He showed a technique where you do a more hitting topspin and then a motion where you push your racket down, to bring the ball down.http://youtu.be/Wu0JxGEzYoM
Starts at 4:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2019 at 4:07am
I think it looks pretty good. is it suppose to be a backhand kill? 
If it is suppose to be just a soft opening shot i think you could accelerate alot more, so you brush the ball more so you get some spin. maybe you can loop a bit more upward aswell. Accelerating and a bit more upward will give you a higher arc so the shot will be somewhat more safe. More spin will also make it harder for your opponent. 

Now i feel the shot is somewhat flat and the arc is low so you miss some, but i feel that she wants you to play pretty hard against backspin and that is why the shot is somewhat flat. But i am not sure. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicholasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2019 at 4:22am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I saw a video from a German youtuber that works for xiom. He had one of the junior players of the Korean national team in his office and played a bit with him. The junior player gave him some tips for the backhand. What he showed was a complete different technique. He showed a technique where you do a more hitting topspin and then a motion where you push your racket down, to bring the ball down.http://youtu.be/Wu0JxGEzYoM
Starts at 4:42
Thanks for your sharing. I've checked it, but I think that His BH and My BH is a little bit different.
It could be different for BH by Coach in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 12:41am
@ttgold when you write "...and then a motion where you push your racket down,..." do you mean something like this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 6:32am
nah. The video I linked shows exactly what I mean. It's like a circular motion. If you look at fzd's backhand you'll see that he also presses down on the ball. Kindo F like the motion of a punch block. It's weird for me to talk about backhand technique, since there are so many backhand techniques out there. Liam uses a lot of natural arm/ wrist, while someone like fan uses this pressing motion. Lin uses a circular motion as well, but without the pressing down part. His circular motion is even bigger. I think the newest technique is going into the direction of fan's technique. 
Yet if we look at the best backhands in this century, then we'll see that there are different than the ones today. Zjk uses a backhand technique that I'd consider the most basic backhand technique. One that everyone could agree is textbook. Same with wang hao. Ovtcharov has a very different technique from everyone else, but I think he is a very unique player in that sense and shouldn't be included when talking about the backhand, since his game is oddly build. 

I think right now there are two major backhand techniques used.
1. The natural swinging technique. A technique where you just swing your arm into it. 
Examples:
-best example is liam (his backhand is so natural, his wrist just follows through his swing) 
- ma long ( also swings his arm in)
- harimoto ( his wrist doesn't follow through from the momentum of the forearm though, he adds a lot of force actively)

2. The pressing backhand/ ripping backhand. Major difference to the 1. Is that the arm doesn't swing that naturally. The pressing and ripping backhand can look very different in the examples I'm going to mention, but at the core they are the same.
Example:
- fzd ( uses this pressing down motion)
- Simon gauzy ( doesn't press down, but uses his wrist in a similar way. He presses forward into the ball strongly)
-Hugo calderano ( falls into the ripping category. He does a strong swing with a wrist movement of that of Simon)
- Lin Gaoliang ( uses a very circular motion ripping with his arm mostly) 

If you want to see their backhands in action and check what I mean, there are a few videos that showcase them.

Simon gauzy ( watch the blade review on table tennis daily) 
Lin Gaoliang ( watch butterfly Japan technique videos)
Fan Zhendong ( backhand slow motion video or the video I linked before)
Hugo ( also table tennis daily blade review)
Ma long and fzd comparison ( World Cup training video on ittf)
Harimoto ( training videos)


Edited by Tt Gold - 02/12/2019 at 6:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 8:45am
Hmmm not sure, I think Pitchford and Calderano have similar backhands, more similar than others mentioned and yet you put them on a different category.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 8:50am
if you look at the way they play the backhand, you'll see that Liam just throws his forearm into it (simply speaking). Calderano on the other hand actively uses his arm and wrist. Hard to explain, but once Liam lets go of his forearm, he is not in control of the movement anymore. Hugo on the other hand is constantly in control of the stroke. So if Hugo decided to stop after initiating his topspin, the topspin wouldn't work, since he's blocking the acceleration. Liam on the other hand only has to initiate and the momentum does the rest. Watch the blade reviews on table tennis daily's channel. Viscaria and foco blade review.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you look at the way they play the backhand, you'll see that Liam just throws his forearm into it (simply speaking). Calderano on the other hand actively uses his arm and wrist. Hard to explain, but once Liam lets go of his forearm, he is not in control of the movement anymore. Hugo on the other hand is constantly in control of the stroke. So if Hugo decided to stop after initiating his topspin, the topspin wouldn't work, since he's blocking the acceleration. Liam on the other hand only has to initiate and the momentum does the rest. Watch the blade reviews on table tennis daily's channel. Viscaria and foco blade review.

Can you please show your backhand?

I honestly think you are complicating a topic unnecessarily.   Everyone has a different backhand but they all have the same circular and speed production principles as the forehand.   The minor adjustments are to provide a different quality of ball either with more speed or spin depending on the incoming speed or spin.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicholasy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 10:46am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

if you look at the way they play the backhand, you'll see that Liam just throws his forearm into it (simply speaking). Calderano on the other hand actively uses his arm and wrist. Hard to explain, but once Liam lets go of his forearm, he is not in control of the movement anymore. Hugo on the other hand is constantly in control of the stroke. So if Hugo decided to stop after initiating his topspin, the topspin wouldn't work, since he's blocking the acceleration. Liam on the other hand only has to initiate and the momentum does the rest. Watch the blade reviews on table tennis daily's channel. Viscaria and foco blade review.

Can you please show your backhand?

I honestly think you are complicating a topic unnecessarily.   Everyone has a different backhand but they all have the same circular and speed production principles as the forehand.   The minor adjustments are to provide a different quality of ball either with more speed or spin depending on the incoming speed or spin.

Cool! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 10:52am
@ttgold I enjoyed reading the long post above. I think I connect to your idea the best if I add a "punch" factor to the equation. The PH BH puch block is sometimes applied in SH technique on a quick off the bounce block for example and we get a SH punch with a wrist snap on top, I think Harimoto has the best hybrid BH from that perspective. You see FZD as a puncher as well, and like HT, only when he wants to be, I can see that. Pitchford's BH would be an extension of Kreanga's BH, the next step up from KK's, there the wrist snap is just a consequence of the forearm momentum. Does the way I uderstand your idea make sense?

@nextlevel that's a video of him drilling (in black) a few weeks ago where I kind of like his BH a lot:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 11:31am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

@ttgold I enjoyed reading the long post above. I think I connect to your idea the best if I add a "punch" factor to the equation. The PH BH puch block is sometimes applied in SH technique on a quick off the bounce block for example and we get a SH punch with a wrist snap on top, I think Harimoto has the best hybrid BH from that perspective. You see FZD as a puncher as well, and like HT, only when he wants to be, I can see that. Pitchford's BH would be an extension of Kreanga's BH, the next step up from KK's, there the wrist snap is just a consequence of the forearm momentum. Does the way I uderstand your idea make sense?

@nextlevel that's a video of him drilling (in black) a few weeks ago where I kind of like his BH a lot:


When I was looping backspin at USATY 1700,  one of my coaches who has never been to Korea, said that there as a difference between the upward lifting motion and the forward drive motion and encouraged me to enf the  upward circular portion of my stroke when I made contact with the balland to finish more forward.. All he is asking the TTR hunter to do is to add more forward motion into the contact once the backspin has been handled.  He is looking for a different quality of ball.  When a coach is trying to get more out of your technique,  that is what a coach does.  Making it sound like a new backhand is just going to confuse people.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 11:53am
Ttgold has a solid backhand. 

Yes there are distinctions in backhand technique but everyone is just trying to do the same thing - get a higher quality ball.  The actual technique you end up with is often an accident of evolution.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 12:32pm
I don't think I'm complicating the backhand. If anything I'm just giving my thoughts about different techniques of backhands and making them more clear, by dividing them into just two categories. If you look at the videos I mentioned, you'll definitely see the difference. Even just watching the elbow and forearm at the end of the movement clearly shows that the power is applied differently. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I don't think I'm complicating the backhand. If anything I'm just giving my thoughts about different techniques of backhands and making them more clear, by dividing them into just two categories. If you look at the videos I mentioned, you'll definitely see the difference. Even just watching the elbow and forearm at the end of the movement clearly shows that the power is applied differently. 
You 2 would make a great team, same no compromise, focused mentality that mellows into wise agreements with ourselves after the acknowledgement of our limitations and strengths. He likes what you write, and now how you play in the mix of your posting, he is just among the people who think there is always a danger to milk flies with boxing gloves -a.k.a entering too deep in the details- when analysing and it's good to say it sometimes, keep it simple, just because there is danger in adding complexity for the sake of complexity, simple is complex enough Smile. It's also good to analyse deep and detailed, it's just fun and we can't help it Big smile. Both are necessarily interlaced to keep the ball spinning with sense; and direction Tongue. Have all a great week!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

@ttgold I enjoyed reading the long post above. I think I connect to your idea the best if I add a "punch" factor to the equation. The PH BH puch block is sometimes applied in SH technique on a quick off the bounce block for example and we get a SH punch with a wrist snap on top, I think Harimoto has the best hybrid BH from that perspective. You see FZD as a puncher as well, and like HT, only when he wants to be, I can see that. Pitchford's BH would be an extension of Kreanga's BH, the next step up from KK's, there the wrist snap is just a consequence of the forearm momentum. Does the way I uderstand your idea make sense?

@nextlevel that's a video of him drilling (in black) a few weeks ago where I kind of like his BH a lot:

maybe I'll take the videos I mentioned and put them in one to make it clear. But if you watch the videos it should already be pretty clear what I mean. Maybe I'll do the video next month or so, as I'm busy now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

@ttgold I enjoyed reading the long post above. I think I connect to your idea the best if I add a "punch" factor to the equation. The PH BH puch block is sometimes applied in SH technique on a quick off the bounce block for example and we get a SH punch with a wrist snap on top, I think Harimoto has the best hybrid BH from that perspective. You see FZD as a puncher as well, and like HT, only when he wants to be, I can see that. Pitchford's BH would be an extension of Kreanga's BH, the next step up from KK's, there the wrist snap is just a consequence of the forearm momentum. Does the way I uderstand your idea make sense?

@nextlevel that's a video of him drilling (in black) a few weeks ago where I kind of like his BH a lot:

maybe I'll take the videos I mentioned and put them in one to make it clear. But if you watch the videos it should already be pretty clear what I mean. Maybe I'll do the video next month or so, as I'm busy now.

What I am saying is that both players are trying to get a quality ball.   When they were younger, someone taught them to play a backhand and they did something and got a quality ball.  Then another coach got them and tried to make it better and asked for this instead of that.  And they did what they thought the coach said and changed it. And so on.  You are seeing the end product now and talking about it as if the player is choosing to play that way, but that is not how technique is developed .No one said  'use the elbow like this and the wrist like this and let the wrist finish here and the elbow go there etc."  When people talk about technique like that, as long as they are not saying that this is how the technique was taught, it is okay.

What the coaches were trying to do was to teach and get a quality ball.  If you look at Ma Long, he modifies his grip seriously yo play backhand.  So does Timo and Dima.  No one said "well you must do your thumb like this and your wrist like this". It is experimentation to get a quality ball. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 5:52pm
I think Fan Zhendong has a very different stroke compared to the rest of the pros...he pronates/supinates his arms actively rather than it being an afterthought inclusion, that along with extremely good biomechanics on the lower body makes him both extremely speedy and powerful. It's also the exact same movement responsible for much of the power in badminton and tennis. I think the pronation/supination makes the stroke less stable due to having to time precise racket angle changes. The mechanism is especially clear when he has to hit in a cramped position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2019 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

@ttgold I enjoyed reading the long post above. I think I connect to your idea the best if I add a "punch" factor to the equation. The PH BH puch block is sometimes applied in SH technique on a quick off the bounce block for example and we get a SH punch with a wrist snap on top, I think Harimoto has the best hybrid BH from that perspective. You see FZD as a puncher as well, and like HT, only when he wants to be, I can see that. Pitchford's BH would be an extension of Kreanga's BH, the next step up from KK's, there the wrist snap is just a consequence of the forearm momentum. Does the way I uderstand your idea make sense?

@nextlevel that's a video of him drilling (in black) a few weeks ago where I kind of like his BH a lot:

maybe I'll take the videos I mentioned and put them in one to make it clear. But if you watch the videos it should already be pretty clear what I mean. Maybe I'll do the video next month or so, as I'm busy now.

What I am saying is that both players are trying to get a quality ball.   When they were younger, someone taught them to play a backhand and they did something and got a quality ball.  Then another coach got them and tried to make it better and asked for this instead of that.  And they did what they thought the coach said and changed it. And so on.  You are seeing the end product now and talking about it as if the player is choosing to play that way, but that is not how technique is developed .No one said  'use the elbow like this and the wrist like this and let the wrist finish here and the elbow go there etc."  When people talk about technique like that, as long as they are not saying that this is how the technique was taught, it is okay.

What the coaches were trying to do was to teach and get a quality ball.  If you look at Ma Long, he modifies his grip seriously yo play backhand.  So does Timo and Dima.  No one said "well you must do your thumb like this and your wrist like this". It is experimentation to get a quality ball. 
I understand what you're saying. But when it comes to the way you describe the technique development I have to disagree. The way you describe it is correct for the beginning of a new technique. Once the technique finds success and gets established, it gets taught to the upcoming generations. As it was said in the video I linked, the Korean team is using this technique now. Or to be more specific, they'll use it on their future generations. I have even seen Jungyungsik ( the tall guy) try to adapt to the new technique. "Well you must use your thumb like this"<- actually coaches tell them about it and it's called a backhand grip. They even tell people what to use at what moment. After that players develop their individual variations of the stroke. But there are some things that are rooted in their training philosophy. Just wait until I'll make a video about it and you'll understand. Or watch the videos I mentioned, which would help in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 4:33am
Good to know that someone notices it. It's not exactly new. As far as I could track, WH started transitioning to this biomechanics from the mid to late 2000.





Li Xiaodong talks extensively on this concept in one of his tutorials from 2014.

Starting from 5:46, he goes over the swing trajectory and how many grass-root coaches teach it wrong. At 7:13, he mentions that at the highest level, the swing direction could go toward your bottom right(for a right-hander) when returning a loop, like the one from WH above.



Edited by zeio - 02/12/2019 at 5:00am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 9:03am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Good to know that someone notices it. It's not exactly new. As far as I could track, WH started transitioning to this biomechanics from the mid to late 2000.





Li Xiaodong talks extensively on this concept in one of his tutorials from 2014.

Starting from 5:46, he goes over the swing trajectory and how many grass-root coaches teach it wrong. At 7:13, he mentions that at the highest level, the swing direction could go toward your bottom right(for a right-hander) when returning a loop, like the one from WH above.


It's not new - and the way I have always understood is a swing trajectory adjustment to trap topspin.  I don't understand it so much as punching down but spinning over the ball forward to bring the ball down.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/12/2019 at 9:04am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 9:21am
The kill shot for that stroke is to hit the left side of the ball and  turn the wrist/forearm over.  IT's something you can experiment with but I wouldn't call it someone's regular backhand.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 3:14pm
When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.

I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.

I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.

No, contact with the ball.is not the only part of the swing that counts.  This is one of the most dangerous things table tennis engineers say and while it seems self evident and true, it can send someone's technique in the wrong direction.  A swing has a trajectory and the trajectory is not just hat happens at contact but what happens before during and after contact.   The whole trajectory has an effect on the ball produced.  Swinging to press down has a different effect from swinging to open up because the racket path turns the ball in a different way.

in all TT strokes,  not just backhand,  there are different approaches to spin generation based oncontact point and follow through.  Some people like to brush from the start and while some people like to hit into the ball with more solid contact and turn the ball to finish their stroke.  And many players use both methods.  I don't think  it is worth making them to kinds of backhands.  It is simply a different approach to the ball.  And in the plastic ball era, the solid contact approach is becoming more dominant because it allows you to hit into the ball more solidly.  But I think everyone just does what they think is right at the appropriate moment given the incoming ball, the actual swings for both approaches look very similar to me  but the mental approach and output is not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.

I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.

No, contact with the ball.is not the only part of the swing that counts.  This is one of the most dangerous things table tennis engineers say and while it seems self evident and true, it can send someone's technique in the wrong direction.  A swing has a trajectory and the trajectory is not just hat happens at contact but what happens before during and after contact.   The whole trajectory has an effect on the ball produced.  Swinging to press down has a different effect from swinging to open up because the racket path turns the ball in a different way.

in all TT strokes,  not just backhand,  there are different approaches to spin generation based oncontact point and follow through.  Some people like to brush from the start and while some people like to hit into the ball with more solid contact and turn the ball to finish their stroke.  And many players use both methods.  I don't think  it is worth making them to kinds of backhands.  It is simply a different approach to the ball.  And in the plastic ball era, the solid contact approach is becoming more dominant because it allows you to hit into the ball more solidly.  But I think everyone just does what they think is right at the appropriate moment given the incoming ball, the actual swings for both approaches look very similar to me  but the mental approach and output is not.

Ball contact is the only part of the swing trajectory that counts for what the ball does. A downward follow through after the ball is headed back in the other direction has no effect on the spin or flight path of the ball. Of course follow through counts for recovery, and every part of the swing trajectory is connected to every other part, and everything including what you had for breakfast the morning of the tournament counts for how much power you generate. 

If you're talking about how best to conceptualize hitting the ball then I agree that it's not helpful to think only about the moment of contact. In that sense it might be useful to think metaphorically about "turning" the ball with a particular follow through even though your follow through is doing no such thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.

I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.

No, contact with the ball.is not the only part of the swing that counts.  This is one of the most dangerous things table tennis engineers say and while it seems self evident and true, it can send someone's technique in the wrong direction.  A swing has a trajectory and the trajectory is not just hat happens at contact but what happens before during and after contact.   The whole trajectory has an effect on the ball produced.  Swinging to press down has a different effect from swinging to open up because the racket path turns the ball in a different way.

in all TT strokes,  not just backhand,  there are different approaches to spin generation based oncontact point and follow through.  Some people like to brush from the start and while some people like to hit into the ball with more solid contact and turn the ball to finish their stroke.  And many players use both methods.  I don't think  it is worth making them to kinds of backhands.  It is simply a different approach to the ball.  And in the plastic ball era, the solid contact approach is becoming more dominant because it allows you to hit into the ball more solidly.  But I think everyone just does what they think is right at the appropriate moment given the incoming ball, the actual swings for both approaches look very similar to me  but the mental approach and output is not.

Ball contact is the only part of the swing trajectory that counts for what the ball does. A downward follow through after the ball is headed back in the other direction has no effect on the spin or flight path of the ball. Of course follow through counts for recovery, and every part of the swing trajectory is connected to every other part, and everything including what you had for breakfast the morning of the tournament counts for how much power you generate. 

If you're talking about how best to conceptualize hitting the ball then I agree that it's not helpful to think only about the moment of contact. In that sense it might be useful to think metaphorically about "turning" the ball with a particular follow through even though your follow through is doing no such thing. 

Maybe you should give us a video tutorial on how to apply your advice.   Like I said, the physics is sound but is very misguided for practical TT.  You can show me in your tutorial how you stroke and get a certain effect at impact but follow through very differently on both strokes.  it is just nphysically possible for the rapid continuous motions that are spin strokes.   In other words, your statement is good physics and stupid table tennis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slowhand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

When WH or FZD finish a backhand with a down to the right swing trajectory it's usually only the follow through that's going down. On contact with the ball -- the only part that counts -- trajectory is mostly forward and up (check out the 2008 Wang Hao video frame by frame around the 35:05 mark). I think the exaggerated downward follow through is mostly useful for fast recovery, especially when using a curved swing trajectory.

I do think Tt Gold makes a good point in distinguishing between straighter (more "natural") and more elliptical ("pressing" or "ripping") swing trajectories. You can generate more power with an elliptical trajectory because you can fit a longer swing into the same space. The cost is that your swing direction is changing moment to moment so you need better timing.

No, contact with the ball.is not the only part of the swing that counts.  This is one of the most dangerous things table tennis engineers say and while it seems self evident and true, it can send someone's technique in the wrong direction.  A swing has a trajectory and the trajectory is not just hat happens at contact but what happens before during and after contact.   The whole trajectory has an effect on the ball produced.  Swinging to press down has a different effect from swinging to open up because the racket path turns the ball in a different way.

in all TT strokes,  not just backhand,  there are different approaches to spin generation based oncontact point and follow through.  Some people like to brush from the start and while some people like to hit into the ball with more solid contact and turn the ball to finish their stroke.  And many players use both methods.  I don't think  it is worth making them to kinds of backhands.  It is simply a different approach to the ball.  And in the plastic ball era, the solid contact approach is becoming more dominant because it allows you to hit into the ball more solidly.  But I think everyone just does what they think is right at the appropriate moment given the incoming ball, the actual swings for both approaches look very similar to me  but the mental approach and output is not.

Ball contact is the only part of the swing trajectory that counts for what the ball does. A downward follow through after the ball is headed back in the other direction has no effect on the spin or flight path of the ball. Of course follow through counts for recovery, and every part of the swing trajectory is connected to every other part, and everything including what you had for breakfast the morning of the tournament counts for how much power you generate. 

If you're talking about how best to conceptualize hitting the ball then I agree that it's not helpful to think only about the moment of contact. In that sense it might be useful to think metaphorically about "turning" the ball with a particular follow through even though your follow through is doing no such thing. 

Maybe you should give us a video tutorial on how to apply your advice.   Like I said, the physics is sound but is very misguided for practical TT.  You can show me in your tutorial how you stroke and get a certain effect at impact but follow through very differently on both strokes.  it is just nphysically possible for the rapid continuous motions that are spin strokes.   In other words, your statement is good physics and stupid table tennis.

I wasn't aware of giving any advice but if I do I think I'll put it on a website called Stupid Table Tennis. In the meantime, I'm sure you can find videos on deceptive serves, snakes, etc., to see how follow through doesn't effect spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2019 at 5:58pm
I have 2 questions:

Some people think that the ball travels in contact over the rubber, they mean that the point of contact is in fact a segment, the ball touches the rubber 1st in point A , stays in contact with the rubber and leaves the rubber from point B: is that AB segment real?

If yes, then could that AB segment be drawn differently in function of the follow through because what the arm does before contact is influenced by what we want the follow through to be?

if yes again, we'd get a different contact depending the follow through we choose.

Now if we answer no to the 1st question, it is harder  to consider the design of the follow through relevant in the overall stroke design.

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