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About world top players.

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Poll Question: A world top player loses a match.
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3 [12.50%]
21 [87.50%]
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    Posted: 07/12/2019 at 9:39am
A world top player chose to lose to hide his/her A-game for the subsequent bigger event.

A world top player plays to win, but lost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:02am
The top one can  be phrased like this : 

" Chose to win but at the same time decided to hide his/her A-game for the bigger event." 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:15am
e.g. Fan Zhendong.

If FZD chose to lose to hide his A-game for the 2020 Olympics, FZD may not even be picked to play Olympics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:16am
Choosing to lose can quickly turn into choosing to not get paid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:20am
If one wants to hide one's A-game, the best way is not to enter.
That's a far better way to hide than enter and chooses to lose.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:23am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

e.g. Fan Zhendong.

If FZD chose to lose to hide his A-game for the 2020 Olympics, FZD may not even be picked to play Olympics.

That only applies to team china.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:25am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

If one wants to hide one's A-game, the best way is not to enter.
That's a far better way to hide than enter and chooses to lose.



By not playing you would also miss out the opportunity to suss out your main opponents' weaknesses and tactics. 


Edited by jackwong23 - 07/12/2019 at 10:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:34am
ma long for example played countless number of matches.
world championship finals, olympic game finals, against every possible adversary.
I don't think he has anything else to hide at this point.

maybe guys who never played ittf can hide something.....


Edited by pingpungpeng - 07/12/2019 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:39am
and some / one forumer chose to hide their best / good arguments
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:41am
Chen Meng was destined to take a spot in 2020 Tokyo Olympics, but after this loss to Ishikawa, CM's chance to play the Olympics becomes a little bit shaky.  (CM is still in the running though.)
Don't think CM chose to lose, that hurts her chance to be picked to play Olympics.

Especially if Sun Yingsha beats Ishikawa, SYS' chance to play Olympics will be much brightened.


Edited by skip3119 - 07/12/2019 at 10:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:43am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Chen Meng was destined to take a spot in 2020 Tokyo Olympics, but after this loss to Ishikawa, CM's chance to play the Olympics becomes a little bit shaky.  (CM is still in the running though.)
Don't think CM chose to lose, that hurts her chance to be picked to play Olympics.

Especially if Sun Yingsha beats Ishikawa, SYS' chance to play Olympics will be much brightened.
her chances will not be diminished  if she was ordered to lose
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:58am

Maybe coach told him to do.so. maybe burnout post wttc but wasnt chinese media telling gold medal.at risk because ma long is injured same was zjk underperforming before 2013 wttc narrow wins.over under top 20.players?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Odie Odie wrote:

Choosing to lose can quickly turn into choosing to not get paid.
==================
That's another way to look at it, from a different angle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

ma long for example played countless number of matches.
world championship finals, olympic game finals, against every possible adversary.
I don't think he has anything else to hide at this point.

maybe guys who never played ittf can hide something.....
=======================
That's a very good point.

Ito Mima played a lot of ITTF events, I don't think there is anything left for her to hide.
Ito is a darn good player.
So is Sun Yingsha.

One of the two will lose.
You just can not say that the player who loses is because she is hiding her A-game, that's just BS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 12:49pm
It's hard to be at your peak at every competition, so more than likely a loss would occur in an  event, when you were actually trying to peak at an earlier event or are still training to be in peak form for a later one. 

Putting forth your best effort and losing when you are not in top form is a part of sports.  It doesn't mean you are hiding anything, but all of your tools may not be as sharp as you would like if the competition occurs too early or too late in your training routine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 her chances will not be diminished  if she was ordered to lose
=======================
In this day and age, if anyone is crazy enough to issue that order, asking CM to lose, he could be fired by CTTA real quick.

No one dares to do that.


Edited by skip3119 - 07/12/2019 at 2:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonyer1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 6:30pm
Generally, CNT aren't allowed to lose against any non-chinese. However, they can lose to any CTT member following the instructions of their head coach,  or even the government. So it's not up to FZD or ML, but also depends on some other factors.




Edited by jonyer1980 - 07/12/2019 at 6:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 her chances will not be diminished  if she was ordered to lose
=======================
In this day and age, if anyone is crazy enough to issue that order, asking CM to lose, he could be fired by CTTA real quick.

No one dares to do that.

If in the past players were ordered to lose to CNT and non CNT players, what has changed that wouldn't make it possible today?  Not arguing, just asking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 7:57pm
I feel like this discussion is an insult to Ishikawa, she worked hard since she is 7 only to get that shit when she gets a good win? That’s lamentable.

Edited by stiltt - 07/13/2019 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:13pm
He/she plays to win, but lost.

I estimate to happen between 49 and 51%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 her chances will not be diminished  if she was ordered to lose
=======================
In this day and age, if anyone is crazy enough to issue that order, asking CM to lose, he could be fired by CTTA real quick.

No one dares to do that.

If in the past players were ordered to lose to CNT and non CNT players, what has changed that wouldn't make it possible today?  Not arguing, just asking.

I remember hearing somewhere the cnt were ordered to lose to  north korea in the 70s for political reasons. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:18pm
In the 2000's American players would default their last game of a round robin to get a more favorable draw
but who cares
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 her chances will not be diminished  if she was ordered to lose
=======================
In this day and age, if anyone is crazy enough to issue that order, asking CM to lose, he could be fired by CTTA real quick.

No one dares to do that.

If in the past players were ordered to lose to CNT and non CNT players, what has changed that wouldn't make it possible today?  Not arguing, just asking.

I remember hearing somewhere the cnt were ordered to lose to  north korea in the 70s for political reasons. 

What you heard was true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

 her chances will not be diminished  if she was ordered to lose
=======================
In this day and age, if anyone is crazy enough to issue that order, asking CM to lose, he could be fired by CTTA real quick.

No one dares to do that.

If in the past players were ordered to lose to CNT and non CNT players, what has changed that wouldn't make it possible today?  Not arguing, just asking.

I remember hearing somewhere the cnt were ordered to lose to  north korea in the 70s for political reasons. 

What you heard was true.


I saw the Pak Yung-sun matches at the 1977 Worlds, it was obvious. But that was a long time ago.


Edited by jfolsen - 07/12/2019 at 10:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2019 at 11:21pm
To keep him as a surprise factor against team sweden, Cnt actually prohibited
chen Xinhua to play international competition for 2 years until the 1985 world team championship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote naijachief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2019 at 4:53am
Lol....I just posted about this topic in the Australian open thread. 

Here are a few scenarios of which match dumping may occur  

1. Injury. A player may decide to give less than best effort in order to minimize further damage to an injury. 

2. Player is financially influenced/bribed by sports gambler.This does happen but usually not with the top players. 

3. Match result is insignificant of ratings/rankings and or team standing.

Professional athletes are trained to maximize their effort during match play and it is not a switch that can be turned off or on easily. 

More importantly, great players understand the psychological advantages of winning as much as possible. If you continue to beat your competitors,  you continue to add to your confidence level and at the same time deflate your opponents confidence. Why would anyone in their right mind want to give their opponents the belief they could beat them? It doesn't make any sense. 

I'm pretty sure Chen Meng didn't want to lose to Ishikawa. Fan Zhendong didn't want to lose to Franziska or Harimoto. It only makes thr next match up against them tougher, which they most certainly would rather it not be.


Edited by naijachief - 07/13/2019 at 6:19am
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well said 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2019 at 7:29am
And don't forget an important thing: it is really dangerous to push intentionnaly an opponent's confidence.
That could give him what he needs to send you "6 feet under"....the next time
You won't never be sure about the final result of such strategy.


Edited by kakapo - 07/13/2019 at 7:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2019 at 7:31am
conspiracy  theory, just like superstition, usually derives from the  lack of  insight and scientific training. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote naijachief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2019 at 8:59am
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

conspiracy  theory, just like superstition, usually derives from the  lack of  insight and scientific training. 

Yes, it is and also sometimes just lack of respect of the players involved. It says that the only way the lower rated player could have won is if they "allowed" them to win and that it has absolutely nothing to do with their skill set and ability of which they have trained their whole life. 

If your argument is they are somehow trying to hide their true level of play until an important tournament, how do they know if the draw will favor them to meet again?

Rafa Nadal lost to Roger Federer in the Wimbledon semis yesterday and it was the first time they had faced each other at Wimbledon since their epic final in 2008. They have never faced each other at the US Open, which I also found interesting. These two legends have a total of 39 matches against each other, yet, that doesn't mean it is a guarantee match up if both are entered in the same tournament or the same side of the draw for that matter. Upsets happen in every sport and happens to every athlete.
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