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"All About Tenergy" BTY Science Infomercial |
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pnachtwey 
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Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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 Posted: 04/29/2015 at 1:33am |
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What is you definition of a proper loop? Ok call it a drive. It makes no difference I can get the ball back even though the back spin is pretty high and it requires more of a upwards stroke than a forward stroke. Those balls were also going deep.. If my paddle's tangential speed matches or exceeds the angular speed of the ball there will be no net force downwards to cause the ball to go into the net. If the ball is incoming with a rotational back spin of about 115 rev/sec and I match the the angular speed of the ball there will be no net force slowing down the rotational speed of the ball and it will go back at about the same rotational speed as the incoming rotational speed. A top spin of 115 rev/sec isn't polite.
The back spin was already at about 115 rev/sec. If I match that angular speed the ball doesn't push off into the net. I am not trying to add spin to the ball. If I match the spin on the ball I can get the same results with a hard bat. If I can match the spin on the ball I don't care what kind of rubber I am using because there will be NO net force that pushes the ball down into the net. I just need to match the spin so the ball doesn't push off my paddle into the net.. Isn't that obvious? This is why I scoff at those that say they can't loop or drive back back spin balls with this or that rubber or paddle.
When I am setup again I may try making 4 or 5 kill shots in a row. The ball is already spinning at about 115 rev per second. Brushing with a faster stroke would be better I couldn't do 10 or 12 of those for a video. I could do fast brush loop for a kill shot in match play but I would get to rest between the points because I would win or fail. Do you always go for kill shots when playing choppers? I don't understand why you can't understand that if I match the angular speed of the ball it won't dive down into the net and the return ball will have as much top spin going back as the incoming back spin. 115 rev/sec is not a polite loop. 150 rev/second is on the extreme fringes. Check this out about spin and this was with 38mm balls not 40mm balls http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf Newgy claims a Newgy 2050 can shoot a ball at 60 mph. That would be at the highest speed rating of 30. I used a speed of 25 which is about 25/30ths or 5/6ths of 60 mph which is 50 mph. The spin to speed ratio is easily calculated. I de-rated the Newgy because my practice balls are shiney to about 2/3 of rated to estimate the spin. If I didn't de-rate the speed the revolutions per second would be much higher than the pros can do. Now what part of 115 rev/sec seems polite to you given the articles posted above? I think I have posted on several occasions that to simulate the heaviest back chops a Newgy 2050 must be set back from the table as shown in the video. Much of the energy must go into the upwards stroke and not forward when the back spin is high. aroonki, I think you should show us how you would do it under the same conditions. Newgy 2050s are easy to find at clubs. Aroonki ,you are missing the point. One can obviously loop or drive back balls with T25. NL, said he had difficulty doing so. I don't believe in myths and superstitions I see on this forum. I don't believe in you can do this or that with that rubber. I can do the math and physics. I know that in almost any reasonable example that I am the limiting factor due to my inability to execute what I know. However, others that blame the equipment are also just making excuses for their inability to execute. There are too many idiots on this forum that can't distinguish between the difference between knowledge and execution. NL is one of them. So he has a 2000 rating and can execute but he believe in the tension fairy.. I can loop or drive back chopped balls with T25 because I know the physics of getting back chopped balls. Some day a total nerd will program a robot that play TT and beats the world champ. The nerd may not be able to execute or really play TT but he will understand and model spin and speed of the ball and understand economy of motion much better than those that actually play TT. Yell, scream and curse all you want. It happened in chess. Now Watson is the next big thing. In industry this trend has started long ago. |
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aroonkl
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Joined: 07/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 748 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 4:12am |
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You mention a lot about if matching angular to get 115 rev/sec back spin back = good spinny loops.
So if I use plain wood paddle and match angular angle of back spin to get the balls back = I have strong spinny loops.  Again, to be honest. Your loops are sub-par level. No real spin ever. You don't know how to do it. (And when your glass is full with water, it is no room opened to learn any.) At our club we have a little 11y old girl, 1950 level. We let her play with our higher group often as it will help her improve faster. With her tiny body, her loops are still spinny and more power than yours. (She's still learning. Her loops are not her strong point but her rally drives are good.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChGAHWXdfkY
Edited by aroonkl - 04/29/2015 at 6:00am |
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AndySmith
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Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 4:37am |
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pnachtwey definitely has an agenda with his physics-based rants, but I doubt he cares about this kind of "my loop is bigger than your loop" bravado. It isn't about power (ha!) or execution - it's all about the theory, equations and numbers for him. And if that's what he finds fascinating about TT, then fair enough. It's not the path to high-level play, but not everyone wants that. His real issues are laid bare with the following IMO:
Here you can clearly see the strawman he has built with which he can tear down personal experience and bust some myths (busting makes him feel good, I suppose). Yes, with the correct bat angle and racket speed, you could use most rubbers to do most things. However, how easy is it to do so? NL doesn't say that it's impossible to do things with T25, simply that he finds it more difficult to do certain things with it than with other rubbers, which is a (mostly) universal experience. This isn't a "blame the equipment" statement, it's a "not suitable for my style or needs" statement. For example, I could switch from T05 to Mark V and still lift backspin, but I would find it more effort to do so and probably make more errors, so why should I? I might then say that I find it difficult to lift backspin with Mark V, but don't misrepresent this statement - I don't blame Mark V for that - it just doesn't perform well for me in comparison to T05 in the area that I'm interested in, based on my needs, level, technique, style, etc. Different rubbers are different, and make some things easier and some things harder for different people. If not, why are you even bothering with T25? Just switch to 729FX which is 1/10 of the price. After all, it can do everything that T25 can, and you would be the limiting factor.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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aroonkl
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Joined: 07/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 748 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 5:02am |
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Here is how you loop/brush/spin the balls. (Not carry the balls with lifting motion.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XSv6UK2CMI
NL's "difficult" means with his personal taste there are lot rubbers easier to do. Not that T25 rubber is impossible. I saw his video before. His loops are pretty ok for 2000 level. I think he has injured leg or hip. So he could not rotate/transfer weight as he likes.
I think NL understands tt a lot more than you. He could loop the chopped balls back for sure. Even with pre-made paddle, I think they will be spinny because he knows that he NEED to brush the balls. Someone thinks he knows deep. He think his way is the best bc he understands physics/math. Watch the little girl video and explain in physics. Why... Why.... Tiny arm. Tiny legs. Small body. She is too young for physics class or even learn sq root thing. Why her loops are spinny than mine????? [/QUOTE]
Edited by aroonkl - 04/29/2015 at 6:03am |
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aroonkl
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 5:49am |
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Since you mention lot about knowledge in physics. Here are simple question.
1. Why do the spinny loops curve down (dip) faster than drives? 2. Why do spinny chops float longer in the air? 3. Why do spinny side serves or loops curve sideway during their flight? (I am not even sure if you notice these.) Big Q. If you are so confident your loops are super spinny why do they not dip like other players'? (Another hint to tell that the loop is spinny. It will do spin kick when contact table surface.) Youtube some. No need to be high players. May be your favorite idiot, NL. (Sorry NL) His loops dip.
 Edited by aroonkl - 04/29/2015 at 6:05am |
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CipheR
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Joined: 02/26/2015 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 6:38am |
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Cause of the Magnus effect? :))
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ㅈㅈ지지ㅎㅎㅋㅋ
Nittaku Custom Blade FH: Neo Hurricane 3 Provincial BH: Xiom Musa |
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CraneStyle
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Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 7:18am |
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Calling all MYTT current T25 users...
Please share your CURRENT T25 experience... @pnatchwey - Thanks for sharing your video on T25 (no body else has)... The Newgy robot can spit out heavy backspin balls... If you'd have put your bat flat at the ball, seeing it dump on the table would display the amount of backspin you were playing... @ vvk1 - Thanks, you are the only other player to provide some inside to a player who currently uses T25... I do think T25 is the unfashionable Tenergy and I don't know anybody using it, so I'm waiting for a sheet to arrive to try for myself. Though I do believe that it can take time to fully exploit the capabilities of Tenergy rubbers and seeing pro's use it for various shots reduces that discovery time... The non-progressive bickering is spoiling the discussion of a great video from Butterfly: @Schen - Thanks for posting  ...Considering how long Tenergy has been out, this video to me is just turning the thumb screws on its competitors on what will be a very long and established product life-cycle no doubt... Edited by CraneStyle - 04/29/2015 at 7:28am |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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vvk1
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Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 8:13am |
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@CraneStyle - thanks. Here are some videos capturing that rare T25 player variety :-) Practice session (go to 16:30 mark to see him loop on both wings): Typical match for him: Edited by vvk1 - 04/29/2015 at 8:13am |
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NextLevel
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Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 8:25am |
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Cranestyle,
The people speaking about Tenergy 25 (Baal, aroonkl, myself) have used it. All I have said is that the amount of upward motion one has to put in one's stroke to use Tenergy 25 in general as a looper will turn off most people who like to get forward motion on the ball. With Tenergy 25, you have to loop everything in a way that is counterintuitive to how most people like to play with modern rubbers (get their topspin with more forward motion). The rubber allows you to offer the FULL face of the bat on most strokes, and this is not a bad thing, but if you were to use it then switch to another rubber, your racket angles would change significantly and there is an adjustment period. Because you can offer the full face of the bat and it absorbs spin easily, you can counterloop and counterhit very aggressively at the table, almost recklessly. You can backup and do something similar, but then you lose a lot of pace and have to deal with a lot of upward motion on your strokes with low return. This hurts over the table offensive strokes as you are stuck raising your bat into the sky if you want to play a topspin flick vs. backspin ball. The real question in my mind is whether anyone would want to use a rubber that forces your racket angles to be so different without any of the speed gains that we get from say Tenergy 05 or other modern rubbers where the stroke is more in the direction of the ball trajectory as opposed to more tangential to it like T25. In the men's game, you are pinned to the table all the time but your opponent doesn't have to be so he can launch bombs from a comfortable distance. If you use T25 and your views differ, feel free to share. I am not questioning the utility of the rubber so much as saying that it plays so different from other rubbers that it is for someone willing to commit their game to that rubber with no guarantee that if it is no longer produced, they will be able to play as well with something else.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 8:34am |
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Great video, vvk1. I think the differences between your loops and the other player displays the issues with Tenergy 25 perfectly. He is looking with much more power than you are but look at what his ball is doing vs. yours.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 8:46am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
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Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 9:26am |
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@ vvk1 - Thanks for posting the vids...
 I did not see a weird style from the T25 player at all... On the contrary, I saw a very good two winged looping attacker... Nice to see a good range of T25 touch to strong shots executed on BH & FH... T25 does appear to reward strong looping/ topspin strokes... Though he did also execute a little Tenergy-esk wrist flick with his FH in the match that landed sweet... If we didn't know what rubbers he was using, I wonder what we would have guessed they were... 
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Baal
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Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 10:41am |
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I think I can go a bit further than NL and Andy about T25. I certainly can loop with it, quite hard and quite spinny, as with any of the modern rubbers designed for offensive table tennis. From away from the table it seemed like margin for error was somewhat low and I missed more than I would with T05. Perhaps I could grow accustomed to it in time, almost certainly I would, but since it costs the same as T05, and I didn't like it at all, I only bought one sheet. Physics or no physics, the fact is not many people will like it, and that has nothing to do with marketing. It is quite different from the others, and it is quite interesting the effects the pips have. It has been out a long time and never gained much following, in contrast to, say, T80, which is quite new to the market. The few who do like it will be people who play pretty close to the table almost all the time.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 11:59am |
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Baal,
Andy didn't say anything specific about T25 - he just explained my position as a reasonable person should interpret it.
The contention was never whether one could loop with it, but whether one liked the amount of upward movement that one would have to play with to use it while looping with it. And away from the table, that upward movement becomes fairly ridiculous if you want real topspin (and you lose a lot of pace as well) which is why most users never leave the table with it. What you saw, as I did, was that to drive the ball from distance required you to pretty much smash loop, for lack of a better term.
In any case, I know it's easy to be smug when you can't see what is really happening (it reminds me of the many players - both newbies and lower level players - who watch table tennis and think that what is going on is easy because they have no idea of the technical demands of what they are watching and as a result don't respect the effort they have to put into it). T25 is that kind of rubber where a lot lies beneath the surface and the illusion of table tennis is perfectly exemplified by it.
Of course when you loop with it, you are going to get good topspin, because the demands it places on upward motion are significant and that's where topspin comes from - upward motion! But can you get upward and forward motion like the modern game demands (as in the kind of pace and topspin that keeps the ball extremely safe and fast)? Maybe if you are Hercules. And for the effort, can't you just use another rubber that isn't as weird and specialist?
I sound like a broken record, but again, the smugness of people sometimes irritates me.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
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Posted: 04/29/2015 at 9:04pm |
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NL. Yes.
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Baal
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Posted: 04/30/2015 at 12:11am |
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I believe I can fly. I believe that children are the future. Believe in me. I believe. It's only make believe. Do you believe in miracles? Daydream believer. I can't believe. Don't stop believing. I believe in the physics of getting back chopped balls. |
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smackman
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Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Posted: 04/30/2015 at 1:53am |
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ma ma muma said tenergy gives you energy
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 11:12am |
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Cranestyle, I have been waiting eagerly for your review of Tenergy 25, since you were waiting for a sheet. How did it play? Curious since you felt that one could play with it without adjusting their technique.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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frogger
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 11:45am |
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I have used most of the Tenergy's and like them because they go limp on the blade when I glue them. T25 takes much time to adjust to. Quick, almost to quick for my liking. Regardless of what BTY description of each rubber performs...every player must decide for themselves which one suits them. I hate gluing a bowed up rubber. |
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Wood Paddle
Red side Black side. |
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beeray1
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 12:57pm |
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I tried T25 a couple weeks ago, because I was debating moving away from Chinese rubber forehand for a change. I kept hearing if you used Chinese rubber to try T25.
But I felt like it had none of the extra benefits and all the downsides of chinese rubber. Chinese rubbers are harder to use, but are more rewarding. T25 (for me) was harder to use, but had none of the 'rewarding' part. Someone told me that it's popular on the backhand side though. I hit a few there, but didn't really feel like pursuing it more. T80 is a nice balance IMO
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NextLevel
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 1:06pm |
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It's popular for people who hit and block and don't really do advanced backhand looping. Once you do, the rubber becomes too restrictive as it forces you to stay closer to the table than you might like. I do think the off the bounce counterlooping and counterhitting with an open paddle for T25 is more automatic. But if you want to move away from Chinese rubber, start with a hard ESN like MX-P/S or an Omega V Asia etc. or Tenergy 05 and make the technical adjustments over time rather than use T25.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jt99sf
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 1:14pm |
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I use black T25 (FH) on a black tag TBS. It works well for me, it has both touch and power. I tried it on a new TBS and it had no control. I believe you have to pair the rubbers (FH) AND (BH) with the correct blade. For me, I think I found it.
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 Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 1:47pm |
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You're not sleeping are you... I'll post it later cos I'm just out to hit some balls... It's not a one-liner... 
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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NextLevel
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 1:54pm |
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 , that's all.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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berndt_mann
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 2:54pm |
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i believe for every drop of rain that falls.....
I'm also coming to believe that the main reason for the development of the various varieties of Tenergy is to give some contributors to this forum an opportunity to discuss, inter alia, the physics of looping backspin, the problems involved in adjusting one's technique to accommodate the properties inherent in the types of Tenergy, and how close to or how far from the table you should stand in order to play effectively with this type or that type of Tenergy. Damn.
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 05/29/2015 at 8:23pm |
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Why humble pie..? I'm trying a rubber that I have never used before... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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NextLevel
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Posted: 05/30/2015 at 12:57am |
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Because you mocked me when I described the rubber.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 05/30/2015 at 1:53am |
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Really...? Way too narcissistic... There's a lot of T25 bashing going on in this thread... I decided to get a sheet of T25 to satisfy my own curiosity... Watched the posted videos, made my comments and I'm sticking by em ... It was pretty obvious that the guy using T25 on both sides played like a "normal" TT player... As the mantra goes "you have to try it for yourself".... I have... And no, you don't have to change your life to play with T25... It does what it says on the tin... Edited by CraneStyle - 05/30/2015 at 1:59am |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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NextLevel
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Posted: 05/30/2015 at 2:56am |
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Sure. So where is your review?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 05/30/2015 at 7:37am |
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Tenergy 25
It does what it says on the tin and is pretty amazing to be honest for FH. However, the feature that makes it amazing also contributes to its flaw for me... My main setup is in my signature Miz ZLC with T05 FX black on FH T05 red BH both 2.1 (Max)... Test blade backup Miz ZLC T25 black FH, T05 red BH both 2.1 (Max) Serving I did a few of serves, but I am so used to my main setup that I didn't want to dabble too much here. Let's say it's firmer feeling and serves bounce lower and shorter. FH Touch Shots, short serve returns and pushing: In this department I really think it is the best of all Tenergies on FH. Touching balls just over the net from short heavy spin serves or pushes is just epic... Really!.. FH Chopping: It's the easiest rubber to do a Joo See Hyuk FH chop with I have ever tried. I'm not a chopper per-se, but will do an emergency "Hail Mary" BH chop (ala Ma Long) when out of position. Both my BH & FH chops are usually very high. FH Chops with T25 float flat and dangerous - smile on the face time. I'm not a chopper but the success of me doing this shot freaked me out and must be noted. FH Lifting Backspin: Slow loop first attempt no problem at all. Looping long serves, no problem. BH Lifting Backspin: Didn't work for me here at all. After a few attempts I realised that this was not going to match the capabilities of the big daddy T05 or T05 FX or even T25FX. BH Drives n Loops BH to BH Over the table and off the table drives n loops are really easy with this rubber. FH Drives n loops/ counter loops: Well these just go on the table. Hitting the sides is easy too, due to its short throw. Now to the feature & flaw. You increase power and balls go on, really rip and balls go on but the "energy" is not there. Rallying with a buddy I was driving and power-looping balls at him which felt like ripped killers, but he could return them. He is a good blocker but I knew the balls weren't "hot" enough to trouble him. When I say "energy" or "hot" I mean a combination of both high spin and directional speed. Now to the FH stroke. I started the night with this setup and finished doing some FH loop drives straight down the FH side of the table (I'm right handed) with my usual training partner, who is a higher level player than me. I was enjoying ripping these balls and he was blocking them back. Then he said "you don't need this rubber". Me - "You don't think so? Humm" I immediately picked up my usual bat for the same drill and wow my FH's were ripping (T05FX). Old faithful felt like it had Kutchen sponge on the FH and I could feel the weight of the ball. No change of technique whatsoever. If anything I was overdoing it due to the amount of effort I was using with T25. T25 = harder feel and of course not the FX variety. Conclusion: There's a place for this rubber since is demands full strokes - could well be the most expensive training rubber around . There is a restricted ceiling on the FH looping and driving potency of the balls it produces. This is what I find both amazing and flaw to be honest. I don't know a rubber like it because the balls don't flatten out either, they keep a tight arc - short throw. I genuinely believe T25's ability to keep ripped topspin balls on the table is amazing. I can see that out of the 100 Tenergies developed (Butterfly quote) this feature found probably by serendipity is worth keeping. I don't know where the energy goes when you rip a FH stroke, but the resulting ball is not as hot as I can generate with the T05 varieties... Edited by CraneStyle - 05/30/2015 at 7:50am |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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aroonkl wrote: