|
|
|
Alternative way to loop underspin |
Post Reply 
|
Page <12345> |
| Author | |||
ghostzen 
Silver Member 
Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: 07/03/2019 at 7:45am |
||
|
Been
reading this just now and it's become a strange old thread to be honest. So I
thought I would pop my 5 bob in the hat as well.
I'm not
here to become "toxic" The first page pictures show a pretty standard loop against a chopped ball. There's a lot of good explanation of this which is actually really pretty cool. Blahness really gets down the micro ideas of the shot which is nice to see. Please don't stop mate you have some cracking nice ideas. Here's where it goes a bit wrong for me.. It's nothing new, it's a pretty standard stroke.... sorry I tend to call a brick a brick as everyone knows hopefully btw by now. I do not mean to offend. I get that it's good to try and have different views on things 100%. Cracking breakdown of ideas and backed up by some good photos as always and the way you break down the micro aspects of the technique are cracking but... sorry for this again. It's still a pretty basic loop against chop by a pro player... I think NL and a few others may be thinking the same... I've never met the guy or others btw so no bias. If you are getting benefit great I totally agree to share your ideas and other detailed ways of thinking about shots and production of shots. But why the attacks by everyone because some people query things?. You can supply a millions stills of players in great positions in training or matches and then them slightly out of positon where they have to play a bit of the fly and adjust to make the stroke work in the real world. All the players are all trying to make the technique you are advising which is the standard coached stroke not just at pro level but lower down as well.
Cheers GZ
|
|||
 |
|||
| Sponsored Links | |||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member 
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:07am |
||
Try going into a split squat position with the front foot pointing forward. I believe anyone can go down till their rear knee touches the ground. Now turn your front foot slightly say 15 deg to the left or right. Can you still go down so low?
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
ghostzen
Silver Member
Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:23am |
||
|
but again this is a standard stroke. Can we at least agree that this is a standard stroke?
|
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:28am |
||
Suggest you try the simple exercise above first. .
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
ghostzen
Silver Member
Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:34am |
||
|
So it is or is not a standard stroke?.
|
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:44am |
||
If you don't do the exercise you won't see the point and therefore won't even understand how the angle of the feet makes a huge difference in how low you can get while maintaining a straight torso. I couldn't care less if it was standard or nonstandard....
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
ghostzen
Silver Member
Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:55am |
||
|
but the topic is called... "Alternative way to loop underspin" if you see where I am coming from? And I'm not trying to be difficult in any way honestly. thats not my way. I'm saying normal stroke. You are saying? Normal or alternative as in different stroke? Then we can talk about why I think it is normal and then agree or discuss the differences if you say it isn't normal or like the topic suggests alternative. It's just a yes or no. once thats worked out then we can really get down to the stuff that you are wicked at explaining and everyone will hopefully get a great topic which everyone can learn from. Your attention to detail is cracking. |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:59am |
||
Ok if you haven't done the exercise, I have nothing further to discuss. Have a good day!
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
ghostzen
Silver Member
Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:08am |
||
|
No problem. With all the amazingly detailed and good writing you can't answer that Question?? Yes or no??
Totally understand your postion. shame as we could have had a cracking discussion on things. |
|||
|
|||
|
shaks
Super Member 
Joined: 09/20/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:28am |
||
|
Since now you are mostly focusing on the position of the feet. Just adding my 2 cents - The feet position is basically for aiming the shots. So, the open feet position of harimoto is typically to hit shots aimed at the opponents belly or down the line.
Watch Ma long's feet position when he hist from the backhand corner.
|
|||
|
~shaks
Usatt 2150 |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:42am |
||
Hi shaks, actually that is a really good video. You can see quite clearly that in this position Ma Long can't really go any much lower due to the feet position and angle. He drops his right shoulder and squeeze his right waist to be able to get low enough to loop the backspin feed. In Harimoto's version, the feet are aligned in a way that allows much lower body positions to be achieved. It is similar to a split squat position where the playing foot is perpendicular to the hitting direction. The nonplaying foot also rotates during the backswing to allow this.
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
Bran
Super Member
Joined: 06/18/2013 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 367 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 10:35am |
||
|
Looping backspin isn't only about getting low, you still need to hit the ball forward, i.e. rotating your arm and body into the ball. By having your feet perpendicular to the ball trajectory, as you describe, you're having to make an extra effort for this rotation, hence why Harimoto is having to cock his arm back this much. Moreover, it's possible when you have all the time you want, but the effort involved means it's a large swing that requires preparation. A perpendicular squat is useful to get low, but it's detrimental to the rest of the movement involved in looping the ball, which consists in hitting into the ball towards the table.
|
|||
|
|||
|
NextLevel
Forum Moderator 
Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 10:58am |
||
|
Letting it go. Thankfully, good and experienced players have posted here with their own wisdom.
Edited by NextLevel - 07/03/2019 at 11:15am |
|||
|
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 4:24pm |
||
As I said it is an alternative to avoid waist bending. Against backspin if you use your body to do the backswing it can still be very fast. The key to a fast stroke is no arm backswing. Harimoto cocking back his arm so much is unnecessary, I found that actually to be detrimental. The body rotation similarly comes from the thoracic rotation and hip rotation. As you're turning more you actually get a more complete rotation and I suspect more power.
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 4:34pm |
||
You refused to do the simple exercise, meaning your mind is already closed. Therefore there is no point discussing any further.
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
stiltt
Assistant Admin 
Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1010 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 4:49pm |
||
|
Don't even answer, they just can't stand when somebody wants to stand out, they won't spend energy to do anything alike but they will put all their forces to prevent another person to do it.
They are just like a family member who does not want to spend their money in our business but find no problem and even prefer sponsoring a total stranger's by buying from them instead. It's very close to jealousy in fact, you say fresh things under a new angle, "lower back protection and injury free style of play" while they pretend it's "standard"; your approach is not standard, it's a new way to apprehend the constraints of the game while keeping strategic goals fully supported; they take insult not having thought about it themselves or, better, they go "DO YOU THINK WE COULD NOT HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT BY OURSELVES???"; that's between disgusting and silly IMHO, negative for sure. Keep up with the good work! you interest one person at least (many more, believe me). BTW, the 3 axises (shoulder, waist, hips) was GOLD to me in that thread a while back (I owe you for that energy you spent there). In this thread, what I am taking home is what Fabian1890 wrote in his 1st post in page 1: that it supports his bh play better while not threatening his fh, all that protecting the lower back. You 2 are the kings in today's thread. Thanks to both of you. Edited by stiltt - 07/03/2019 at 4:52pm |
|||
|
|||
|
ghostzen
Silver Member
Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 5:19pm |
||
|
Glad you have now confirmed that it is an alternative stroke and not the normal stroke against a chopped ball. That's all I asked and you didn't seem keen to want to give a reply either way which confused me why to be honest. It seemed a yes or no answer. But it's cleared up now so all good.  As for refusing ...nope ...I wouldn't follow blindly being told without asking as I haven't my whole time playing over a fair few years. I in no way mean that to sound I know more or less than anyone here. I've played a fair bit all over the place is all i'm saying. I asked a question to clarify which you wouldn't answer ...no biggie. All answered and clear now. I don't really agree from my experince and my time playing but thats ok. That's what the forum is for. I think you would need time to set and swing with preperation and recover which could be very tricky in a varied and fluid match. Edited by ghostzen - 07/04/2019 at 2:41am |
|||
|
|||
|
NextLevel
Forum Moderator
Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 6:36pm |
||
|
You can see in this video that Harimoto squats to a similar degree when looping topspin. So is this an alternative way to loop topspin as well?
In any case, people can make up their own minds. Toxicology is serious stuff.
|
|||
|
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
|
|||
|
shaks
Super Member
Joined: 09/20/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 6:53pm |
||
The lower squat while looping is for a slow spinny loop like this. |
|||
|
~shaks
Usatt 2150 |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 7:25pm |
||
If you notice ZJKs feet position, it is also not perpendicular but rather at a slight angle (around 20-30 deg). He like Ma Long too drops his right shoulder and bends sideways at the waist to achieve the low position. Unlike Ma Long he also does this against topspin, which may have caused some of his serious lower back injuries. ZJK does have some amazing hip flexibility though being able to bend the knee so much while the right foot is at an angle. |
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 8:00pm |
||
Thank you again for the support. I guess its a forum, some will disagree and some will agree, the important part is the sharing of ideas and information! The only problem comes when people resort to snarky attacks and bad faith discussions. Like what you suggested I will simply not respond to any of these baits anymore... It's much better to live and let live :) |
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
Ieyasu
Super Member
Joined: 07/18/2015 Location: DPR Kalifornia Status: Offline Points: 203 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:04pm |
||
You wrote that "Harimoto has way too much arm backswing..." However when I watch video of Ma Long against underspin, I see just as long a backswing. Are you suggesting both their swings are "way too much?" Also you wrote the right knee is aligned with the center of gravity. What does that mean? Are you trying to say the center of gravity is at knee level and the knee-thigh is perpendicular to the center of gravity?
Edited by Ieyasu - 07/03/2019 at 9:05pm |
|||
|
|||
|
cole_ely
Premier Member
Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 6898 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 9:35pm |
||
I guess if it wasn't you would fall over sideways?
|
|||
|
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/03/2019 at 10:34pm |
||
Harimoto's elbow is very far from his body during the backswing indicating a lot of arm backswing. Ma Long has his elbow close to the body. Typically with the existing "standard" technique, the centre of gravity of the upper body is not aligned with the knee due to the feet not being fully perpendicular. It is offset some distance away. In structural engineering this would be called eccentric loading. It's like having ground floor columns and first floor columns some small distance away, continuing with the building analogy.
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
NextLevel
Forum Moderator
Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/04/2019 at 12:03am |
||
|
Does anyone have the video of the shot in the OP? Discussing a picture without looking at the whole stroke gives an incomplete view of table tennis technique.
|
|||
|
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
|
|||
|
mickd
Forum Moderator
Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/04/2019 at 1:10am |
||
Oh, so just having that one foot parallel to the table. I had a hard time picturing it because the split squat picture has both feet parallel, and that would make it a disaster to try and rotate forward into the ball. I think I see what you're saying now. I'm just not sure if this is something the Chinese don't do. Even that ZJK video above with him looping against a chopper, I see his right leg completely parallel to the table on at least one of the shots. There are also shots where he has his right leg facing slightly forward like you've mentioned, though. Does Harimoto always have his foot parallel? I would think he would have them parallel sometimes and facing forward slightly sometimes, too. As for injury prevention, this might be something to take into consideration. For people who have a bad back, but good knees/legs, they could definitely get lower by adjusting their feet angle and stance (I think having a wider stance would help with this too maybe?) Pros often maximize power at the cost of their bodies. So even if they could save their backs by not leaning their waist to the side, they probably would because it's another source of power. (P.S. Personally I often have my foot parallel to the table against top and under spin. I added a picture below from a recent match I had. Though this was against top spin).  EDIT: Oh, and I should probably add that I like having these kinds of discussions. As an adult learner, I like thinking about these things. I'm also at a point where I can usually decide for myself whether something will work well for me or not, but I do also understand the other side of the argument because a few years ago I couldn't, and I tried a lot of incorrect things I thought were correct. I also prefer a lively forum with lots of discussions, controversial or not, than a dead one!! Let's keep it civil
 Edited by mickd - 07/04/2019 at 1:19am |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/04/2019 at 1:26am |
||
Actually to clarify when I was talking about the direction of the feet, it was relative to the hitting direction rather than the table. Relative to table is hard to say because there's many possibilities. But feet position relative to the hitting direction is usually quite consistent for any player. Yours looks pretty similar to Harimoto's position except for the extra thoracic rotation that he has and he rotates a bit more on the nonplaying foot.
Edited by blahness - 07/04/2019 at 2:26am |
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
mickd
Forum Moderator
Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:32am |
||
|
Ah, then I'll need some time to rethink the positioning you're talking about. Do you mean hitting direction as in if they're hitting it down the line or cross court? So your 12 o'clock would be the trajectory of the ball they intend to hit?
I'll probably let others continue the discussion while I think about it more ha.
This is a little off topic, but on 2 occasions I tried to add thoracic rotation, and it really hurt. There was this sharp pain at my upper spine area where I guess I was trying to twist to add rotation. It felt like I was pulling a muscle, but the pain was sharp. Did you ever get anything like that? I might have some weak muscles in that area since I never use them. |
|||
|
|||
|
blahness
Premier Member
Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/04/2019 at 2:44am |
||
Yes relative to the direction in they're about to hit the ball. I think thoracic rotation is kinda optional, you can get to a very high level with pure hip rotation (I believe you, and Tt Gold are in this department). For me it's easier to replace waist with thoracic, because waist rotation was like a drug, you can't get rid of it easily without replacing it with something similar  For me, I didn't do it on the table immediately, there was a few weeks where I focused mainly on bracing the lumbar area and rotating my shoulders while lumbar stayed fixed. I did have some upper back soreness in the beginning but nothing really bad. It probably helped that I had some strength training background so my core and back muscles are quite strong. If it's painful definitely don't push it, you gotta listen to your body.
|
|||
|
-------
Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
|||
|
|||
|
mickd
Forum Moderator
Joined: 04/27/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07/04/2019 at 3:01am |
||
|
I have to correct this because I don't want any misunderstandings, but I'm like 5 levels below Tt Gold ha. But thanks!
And cool. I'll think more about it during the weekend. I also definitely DIDN'T take it slow, brace my lumbar, or ever do strength training, so that definitely wouldn't have helped. I just jumped straight into trying to hit the same power I usually have but with thoracic rotation. That was probably my mistake.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <12345> |
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |
Topic Options
ghostzen wrote: