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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:16pm
Just placing an example by Ma Long doing BH multiballs with LGL, using plenty of hip and waist rotation for discussion. I rarely see him doing BHs like this nowadays...



Tbh my BH loopkill is based off a similar principle. I'm now questioning if it's something I want to be doing long term...


Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 10:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:34pm
Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.


Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:08am
I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:26am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.


Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
what's interesting in that video is the legs work is all about powering the unbowing by jerking the crotch forward. When the legs start pushing up, the ball is gone already. The role of the legs was just to jerk the unbowing for the power stroke and only after that he stands back up on his legs.
This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more.

edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!


Edited by fatt - 03/18/2019 at 1:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:41am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.


Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
what's interesting in that video is the legs work is all about powering the unbowing by jerking the crotch forward. When the legs start pushing up, the ball is gone already. The role of the legs was just to jerk the unbowing for the power stroke and only after that he stands back up on his legs.
This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more.

edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!
I wouldn't use the word "jerk" imo...it could be a pretty dangerous word in biomechanics! The squatting and unbowing shouldn't be seen as separate movements imo but as a whole, similar to what you do in a deadlift. 


Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 1:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 2:49am
Extremely speculative, I think the real change in the CNT attitude towards trunk rotation happened after ZJKs injuries which forced them to reevaluate their techniques. Ma Long abandoned waist rotation in his BH movement around the same time too...

Mickd's video was quite interesting too, there's a lot of earlier clips of Ma Long, you can see how early days Ma Long had quite a bit of waist rotation on both FH and BH.... The Rotterdam WTTC 2011 training videos were the most obvious...


Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 4:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


It is not easy to.descrive to be honest.  The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends  of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer.  However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
I don't think that is a reasonable comparison. This backhand technique won't be used that much, since you don't open up against backspin "that" frequently with the backhand. Also people that deadlift use huge amounts of weight. There's a difference between walking around with a hunched back, and picking up a few hundred points with a hunched back. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
I don't think that is a reasonable comparison. This backhand technique won't be used that much, since you don't open up against backspin "that" frequently with the backhand. Also people that deadlift use huge amounts of weight. There's a difference between walking around with a hunched back, and picking up a few hundred points with a hunched back. 

Why bend at the waist when you can bend at the hips?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 9:38pm
there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.

I understand your point, I'm just trying to point out that for the bowing/unbowing action it is better to bend/unbend at the hips rather than at the waist for similar reasons (avoid bending at the lower back). Apologies if the message wasn't as clear as intended. 

It's like smoking, we all know longterm smoking is dangerous for health, but just a few smokes? The risk might be much smaller, or it could be proportional. But the question is why take the risk when you can avoid it completely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 10:09pm
Edit: double post deleted

Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 7:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


It is not easy to.descrive to be honest.  The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends  of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer.  However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.

I think I understand how Harimoto is doing it. You can have a clockwise  hip rotation with your left leg in front of your right, but it is not the same way as that of the FH, it's a different mechanism. Basically to feel it try this with your left leg in front of your right, your right leg starts off bent and left leg straight. If you rotate your hips clockwise your right leg will end up straight and left leg ends up bent. It won't give you a 90 deg rotation like that on the FH side, but it's something which is better than nothing (about 45 degrees only).  In a sense, you still push off your right leg more than your left leg in the BH if you use this method of hip rotation!


Edited by blahness - 03/19/2019 at 7:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 8:18am
I gotta say Harimoto is a genius.... With this he never needs to transition between "BH feet" and "FH feet", no need for compromises that a square position brings. He can do hip rotation on both wings easily so the power is not lost. Also he always pushes off his right foot so there's no confusion about which way to place his weight on more. No wonder he is so insanely fast!

Also because his right foot is behind the left foot, pushing from the right foot on the BH will always result in a more forward force, leading to a higher quality BH. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 8:57am
That counterclockwise rotation of the hips in the sh-bh is related to the counter driving pen hold bh that is possible with a sh grip because the stroke is thrusting the elbow forward and the fluidity from the legs can be maintained without special effort. It can be super useful when a block catches us in the elbow after a too slow fh recovery for example.
Tom Veatch in the early 2k at a local club experienced many hybrid grips made of papier mâché and in one of them, that kind of bh he borrowed from ph was dominant but it’s easily adaptable to a sh grip.
In that sh ph-bh stroke, the paddle goes always on the same line than the direction of the ball, the hand slightly to the right to make room for the paddle and the wrist adds up onto the punch gesture, all that was enhanced by the counter clockwise rotation of the hips.
It’s a bit counter intuitive since the hips and wrist are going opposite directions but the force they bring in is still directed forward without power loss on the way.


Edited by fatt - 03/19/2019 at 11:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/27/2019 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

That counterclockwise rotation of the hips in the sh-bh is related to the counter driving pen hold bh that is possible with a sh grip because the stroke is thrusting the elbow forward and the fluidity from the legs can be maintained without special effort. It can be super useful when a block catches us in the elbow after a too slow fh recovery for example.
Tom Veatch in the early 2k at a local club experienced many hybrid grips made of papier mâché and in one of them, that kind of bh he borrowed from ph was dominant but it’s easily adaptable to a sh grip.
In that sh ph-bh stroke, the paddle goes always on the same line than the direction of the ball, the hand slightly to the right to make room for the paddle and the wrist adds up onto the punch gesture, all that was enhanced by the counter clockwise rotation of the hips.
It’s a bit counter intuitive since the hips and wrist are going opposite directions but the force they bring in is still directed forward without power loss on the way.

I have been trying the Harimoto style weight transfer in the BH pushing off the back foot lately and like what you said it's actually possible to rotate the hip both ways (anticlockwise will be exactly like throwing a straight punch with the same hip rotation direction as the FH which is amazing for the BH down the line shot, clockwise is better for diagonal shots and requires the straightening of the back foot to achieve the anticlockwise hip rotation). But actually I feel the anticlockwise rotation is in fact more powerful and with some modifications you can do it with the diagonal shot (haven't  actually figured how to do that for diagonal shots smoothly!) 

This method is definitely much faster than the old "frisbee throwing" BH as it is a straight line not a circular movement. But the major problem I had is the feeling of spinning the ball, sometimes I would generate very spinny shots and sometimes downright no spin resulting in a loss of consistency. I think the issue is that I have to modify this "punch" movement slightly to increase the spin potential by dropping the wrist during the backswing and supinating strongly through the shot. 


Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 7:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/27/2019 at 6:03pm
Double post deleted

Edited by blahness - 03/27/2019 at 6:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2019 at 7:22am
Have tried it the Harimoto style BH a bit more, I understand how he is using an anticlockwise rotation for all his BH shots now, it's the same as the Bruce Lee video, he's using his calves extremely well, he's lifting his right heel every single time he hits a BH. With the normal "unsquatting" you get a force that is directed upwards (useful for lifting underspin), however with the lifting of the right heel you convert this force into a formidable forward force (with the effort from the calves added for good measure!). By lifting the heel you also move the right knee forward and thus it becomes an anticlockwise hip rotation). 

I've did some shadow practice of this BH and am liking it a lot, this seems even superior to the clockwise hip rotation that I've been shadowing previously, especially when you can feel the direct connection from the toe to the paddle. 

The really weird thing is that the paddle is rotating clockwise (like a normal BH), while the hips are rotating anticlockwise, but it actually makes sense because all the rotation is simply geared towards achieving a maximum forward force.

Also the same applies for his FH, by engaging the calves you get more forward power in the shot. With this philosophy the weight transfer and hip rotation direction is exactly the same for both BH and FH... I can't even describe how weird this is, it goes completely against what I've learnt lol....

Edit: I might record a video if people are interested


Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 7:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2019 at 7:34am
Edit: The heel lift is actually really powerful on both wings! Just did more shadowing, it really adds a lot of power to the stroke with ease haha

Edited by blahness - 03/31/2019 at 8:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2019 at 11:49am
Def show some video. 

IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. 

There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. 

One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. 

 As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. 





Edited by V-Griper - 03/31/2019 at 11:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2019 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Def show some video. 

IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. 

There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. 

One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. 

 As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. 


He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques unlike most TT players who just accepted conventional wisdom...maybe he relies too much on his technical prowess rather than tactics unlike ML, but he is extremely forward thinking in his strokes. Name me another player who:

1) Uses thoracic rotation exclusively instead of waist rotation
2) Uses the heel lift all the time on both wings
3) On the BH, loads up the right foot and does a counterclockwise hip rotation (exactly the same as the FH mechanism). This allows him to have no hesitation between strokes, no transition of leg position required between BH and FH, and also with no compromise of power at all compared to traditional techniques. 

People think he is naturally fast but I believe it has everything to do with his superior technique. Once he grows some serious muscles he will be hitting it both faster but also more powerful with much shorter recovery time compared to other players on the tour.

Destroying Liang Jingkun 4-0 and Lin Gaoyuan 4-0 is just the beginning...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 5:10am
I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 5:39am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



I definitely never seen this video before, but his understanding of the BH mechanism philosophy is exactly the same as mine now... the part about the supination was extremely clear and critical too. Btw he's also using the anticlockwise hip rotation (similar to a punch), but is missing Harimoto's loading up the backfoot and the heel lift which adds considerable amount of power in the stroke. He's also correctly focusing on the forward movement (look at the stroke trajectory).

Edit: He reverts to the clockwise hip rotation during some segments which directly contradicts his mechanism for the BH counter lol...ideally you should stick with one!!


Edited by blahness - 04/02/2019 at 5:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Def show some video. 

IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. 

There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. 

One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. 

 As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. 




Long time no see.  I like your thought process.  Usually I like to ask adult players what they try to do with their swings.  Usually I learn the most that way.  Because to some degree they consciously tried to do something before it started working.   Kids just copied the good players around them and got better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 2:24pm
"He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques"
How old was he when he made this connection with martial arts.  So he had great insight in both TT and martial arts at that age?  Why waste it on Table Tennis - should be the next Bruce Lee insteadConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!


He has a nice collection of videos. I wish I could understand what he says.


Edited by Ieyasu - 04/02/2019 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

"He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques"
How old was he when he made this connection with martial arts.  So he had great insight in both TT and martial arts at that age?  Why waste it on Table Tennis - should be the next Bruce Lee insteadConfused

I would say either him or his parents are TT biomechanics geniuses haha... Btw it is not so easy to be the next Bruce Lee too lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



Need someone to translate this video. Is this a looping or blocking video?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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