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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this.

if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out.
others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn....
they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule.

also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level....

so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this.

one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?


Edited by pingpungpeng - 04/02/2019 at 7:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this.

if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out.
others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn....
they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule.

also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level....

so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this.

one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?

Do you play in a gangsta club? LOLLOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 8:45pm
I think most the people I play with already hit the ball like that, just without the body working together as well as it should. I also feel like you could slow down the ball depending on the opponent, but still using most, if not all those mechanics. It would definitely depend on your club and your hitting partner.

I think even amateurs should work towards a backhand like that. The most important thing would be for amateurs to know that if they lack the consistency, especially if going for too much explosive power, and their hitting partner can't control the ball, that they'll need to slow it down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2019 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this.

if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out.
others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn....
they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule.

also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level....

so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this.

one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?

Do you play in a gangsta club? LOLLOLLOLLOL

doing that movement when training messes up with the mind of amateurs.
I've seen it happen many times.
most players won't say anything, but you can tell how the quality of the drill decreases.

or they start giving the ball back really fast, almost as if it was a match....

of course this would not happen if your training partner has a good level, but most of us are not that lucky.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 04/02/2019 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:17am
So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:21am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

it's not a topspin.
it's the way they do the normal bh stroke.
looks a bit like a topspin, the ball carries a bit of spin, but it's not a "topspin" stroke.
that's why I was saying in the normal amateur world it can be very confusing to your opponent as to what you are doing/trying to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:29am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

it's not a topspin.
it's the way they do the normal bh stroke.
looks a bit like a topspin, the ball carries a bit of spin, but it's not a "topspin" stroke.
that's why I was saying in the normal amateur world it can be very confusing to your opponent as to what you are doing/trying to do.

So it is a block/counter?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:41am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

it's not a topspin.
it's the way they do the normal bh stroke.
looks a bit like a topspin, the ball carries a bit of spin, but it's not a "topspin" stroke.
that's why I was saying in the normal amateur world it can be very confusing to your opponent as to what you are doing/trying to do.

So it is a block/counter?

it's more like a mini-topspin I think.

for example in this video after 3:13
is it a topsin? is it not? it's always in the limit.
but it's not a block, it's not a flat hit and it's not a full power topspin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:52am
It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. 

I was thinking it was more than a typical counter, but yeah pretty close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. 

I was thinking it was more than a typical counter, but yeah pretty close.

not always, because the incoming ball does not necessarily need to be a topspin.
it's like a flat stroke but a bit up so that gives it more curve and a little bit of spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 2:41pm
Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 

you just rephrased the previous post.

"It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:34pm
at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I did too, he really promotes the ph bh punch adapted to sh, when the hips go counter clockwise (right handed player) to add power in the way I mentioned there (sorry about quoting myself).
I am not sure that is good since away from the table, the hips will go clockwise to add power so why complicating things? it's better to have the same bh close and away from the table with clockwise hips rotation (right handed players). Only when caught in the elbow will the punch ph bh adapted to sh intervene with a counter clockwise hips and a punch followed by the wrist action: off the bounce and well placed, that apparently weak shot can be super lethal and setup a nice fh kill.


Edited by fatt - 04/03/2019 at 3:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.

actually the short stroke in the first video is more of a female used stroke.
hence chen meng is used as example.

men have larger stroke but this gives them more power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 

you just rephrased the previous post.

"It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. "

Yes true I can't really over micro manage it or over think a shot which is pretty standard stroke. Overcomplicated description isn't really my thing....my bad 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 

you just rephrased the previous post.

"It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. "

Yes true I can't really over micro manage it or over think a shot which is pretty standard stroke. Overcomplicated description isn't really my thing....my bad 



it's like an attempt to just everyone else up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:16pm
No not at all. Everyone who knows me on the forum will know I'm not  one to over complicate things. No offense meant or taken. 

Edited by ghostzen - 04/03/2019 at 7:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I did too, he really promotes the ph bh punch adapted to sh, when the hips go counter clockwise (right handed player) to add power in the way I mentioned there (sorry about quoting myself).
I am not sure that is good since away from the table, the hips will go clockwise to add power so why complicating things? it's better to have the same bh close and away from the table with clockwise hips rotation (right handed players). Only when caught in the elbow will the punch ph bh adapted to sh intervene with a counter clockwise hips and a punch followed by the wrist action: off the bounce and well placed, that apparently weak shot can be super lethal and setup a nice fh kill.

That's what I noticed too, the guy in the video uses counterclockwise hip rotation for the counter and clockwise when he is looping, that's just wrong imo, your counter mechanisms should resemble your topspin stroke!

Harimoto uses the counterclockwise hip rotation at all distances...the most visible difference is that he never brings his right shoulder in front of his body (the key signature of the clockwise hip rotation mechanism). There is a video with him training right after Kenta Matsudaira, you can see the differences in approach clear as day...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I did too, he really promotes the ph bh punch adapted to sh, when the hips go counter clockwise (right handed player) to add power in the way I mentioned there (sorry about quoting myself).
I am not sure that is good since away from the table, the hips will go clockwise to add power so why complicating things? it's better to have the same bh close and away from the table with clockwise hips rotation (right handed players). Only when caught in the elbow will the punch ph bh adapted to sh intervene with a counter clockwise hips and a punch followed by the wrist action: off the bounce and well placed, that apparently weak shot can be super lethal and setup a nice fh kill.

Because it is a blocking shot and to block close to the table with clockwise rotation is slow when you need to counter a ball on your right hip. Someone playing with the punching motion will have the ball past you before you get your shot loaded.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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"when you need to counter a ball on your right hip."

That's an elbow ball, kind of, so I think we are on the same page, the punch bh with counterclockwise hips rotation is good just for that unless the player positions themselves so bh balls always come into their right hip (right hand players). In that case though one needs to learn 2 different bh for close and away from the table; that's bad news, like learning to play with the other hand, the whole muscle memory gets mangled and the footwork becomes a nightmare. I prefer to think of the punch bh with counterclockwise hips rotation (right handed players) as an appendix of the bh technique to be used only when pushed in a corner and we need to remain aggressive, that's the most efficient way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 5:48pm
Looks like a block to me. Pros blocking in matches look just like this. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2019 at 6:15pm
The idea is that if you add the weight transfer from back foot (right foot) to the front foot (left foot), add in the right foot heel lift, the "punch style" BH  with the counterclockwise hip rotation can be extended to be suited to even mid distance and beyond due to it having power from the lower body. But of course it really comes into its own close table because you can recharge really fast, there is no BH FH feet confusion, no transition needed between BH and FH weight transfer (it is the same!) and you can do down the line BHs without telegraphing it with your shoulders. 

You can generate very heavy spin by ensuring that you supinate through the ball, this is the essential movement that converts part of the forward power from the punching stroke to spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2019 at 2:30pm
here's another video in the line of the one with chen meng.
actually I like this one better.

it's all about this twisting movement with your elbow and hitting the ball very early.
sometimes it will have more spin, spometimes less, sometimes the incoming ball is a topspin, sometimes not....




Edited by pingpungpeng - 04/04/2019 at 2:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2019 at 7:48pm
One thing that I added on which ended up adding quite a bit of power to the "punch style" BH was having the left hand extended during the backswing and then withdrawing it back towards yourself during the punch, there's two advantages here, the left hand helps you to aim for the ball, and pulling back the left hand activates a bit of thoracic rotation actually which further increases the power. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2019 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

here's another video in the line of the one with chen meng.
actually I like this one better.

it's all about this twisting movement with your elbow and hitting the ball very early.
sometimes it will have more spin, spometimes less, sometimes the incoming ball is a topspin, sometimes not....



This is an excellent video, never thought about the recovery process like that! So what she's saying is that mentally you should treat the "full stroke" as the stroke itself + the recovery to the basic position. If you didn't go back to the recovery position you haven't completed the full stroke. This will prevent "admiring" our own stroke and then being in a bad position for the next ball. 

Edit: Will definitely incorporate this into my shadow practice routine, one rep = hit and then come back to ready position.... I think it will be tremendously useful to train up the brain neural networks to do the recovery movement immediately...


Edited by blahness - 04/05/2019 at 10:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 8:16am
I went to a table tennis workshop today which convinced me to relearn the weight transfer on the backhand... In short, inner foot (playing hand foot) to outer foot (non playing hand foot) seems to not only be a variety, but the correct thing to do.

I've always done it the other way around (ie a mirror image of the forehand weight transfer), but yeah... Looks like doing it the same way as the forehand for the backhand is correct...

I'll post videos and more information about it when I have time. I've been super busy with work recently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 8:33am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I went to a table tennis workshop today which convinced me to relearn the weight transfer on the backhand... In short, inner foot (playing hand foot) to outer foot (non playing hand foot) seems to not only be a variety, but the correct thing to do.

I've always done it the other way around (ie a mirror image of the forehand weight transfer), but yeah... Looks like doing it the same way as the forehand for the backhand is correct...

I'll post videos and more information about it when I have time. I've been super busy with work recently.

I have been rethinking this as well. The conclusion I have reached is that it really depends I  where you take the ball, but that the default should be as you stated. 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2019 at 10:26am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I went to a table tennis workshop today which convinced me to relearn the weight transfer on the backhand... In short, inner foot (playing hand foot) to outer foot (non playing hand foot) seems to not only be a variety, but the correct thing to do.

I've always done it the other way around (ie a mirror image of the forehand weight transfer), but yeah... Looks like doing it the same way as the forehand for the backhand is correct...

I'll post videos and more information about it when I have time. I've been super busy with work recently.

LOL, that's because most people tend to think the BH is only one shot when it's actually 3 distinct fundamental actions along with there associated torso action and weight transfer. 

These descriptions are mostly what pros are doing as most amateurs only focus on the arm and wrist motion and maybe add the torso as they get better. Reference is for right handed players.

The first one would be "standard" BH which typically a small clockwise torso rotation with a small weight transfer(left hip extension) from the left foot to the right foot. This one is used for drives and loop drives and has the most power as it's the biggest movement. Think Mattias Falck. 

The second one is a double hip extension which is one of the ones we are talking about. This one is in the vertical plane where the player pushes up with both legs and as the angle between the torso and the thigh open up(double hip extension) the arm/paddle is "dragged" up into the ball. The weight shift for this forward and backward but it's very tight so difficult to perceive. A crude analogy would be like a bow where the body is the bow and there is an imaginary string between the foot and the shoulders(the arm). When you "close" the angle at the hip the string goes slack. When you "open"(hip extension) the string(arm) is pulled taught. My analogy would make the ball the arrow. This BH is mostly used for lifting underspin and in general places more emphassis on spin.  

The third one would be the BH counter hit/block/punch block. This one has a small weight transfer(right hip extension) from right to left with counterclockwise torso rotation. The arm is "pushed" out straight like a punch hence "punch block". You see this when the opponent hits a FH into the BH corner then the punch block down the line. Aso used when control is the general priority on shots where the player doesn't have to generate much of their own power. 

I actually have a pet hypothesis about the last one. I had some times wondered why I did not see a clearly developed counter-hit/punch-block stroke from non-Asian players in general. I think its because that stroke is a carryover from the penhold TPB as the mechanics are pretty much the same. 

These are just outlines of the fundamental actions but in reality, different players have combined elements of each of these fundamental to varying degrees so it's hard to tease out what the fundamental actions are. A player can start with one action and then transition to another depending on the situation. 

Example-
You can see that, for the most part, TB opening and closing vertically(double hip extension), as you would expect as he is known to emphasize spin so that would make sense. However, within that motion, you can see the small clockwise rotation on the take-back and then the counterclockwise rotation(right hip extension) on the drive phase. Obviously, it's never going to be completely one or the other but in this example, the overall emphasis is vertical. 












Edited by V-Griper - 04/06/2019 at 10:07pm
YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH
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