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Beautiful BH technique

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:16pm
Just placing an example by Ma Long doing BH multiballs with LGL, using plenty of hip and waist rotation for discussion. I rarely see him doing BHs like this nowadays...



Tbh my BH loopkill is based off a similar principle. I'm now questioning if it's something I want to be doing long term...


Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 10:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:34pm
Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.


Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:08am
I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:26am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.


Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
what's interesting in that video is the legs work is all about powering the unbowing by jerking the crotch forward. When the legs start pushing up, the ball is gone already. The role of the legs was just to jerk the unbowing for the power stroke and only after that he stands back up on his legs.
This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more.

edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!


Edited by fatt - 03/18/2019 at 1:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:41am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.


Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
what's interesting in that video is the legs work is all about powering the unbowing by jerking the crotch forward. When the legs start pushing up, the ball is gone already. The role of the legs was just to jerk the unbowing for the power stroke and only after that he stands back up on his legs.
This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more.

edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!
I wouldn't use the word "jerk" imo...it could be a pretty dangerous word in biomechanics! The squatting and unbowing shouldn't be seen as separate movements imo but as a whole, similar to what you do in a deadlift. 


Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 1:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 2:49am
Extremely speculative, I think the real change in the CNT attitude towards trunk rotation happened after ZJKs injuries which forced them to reevaluate their techniques. Ma Long abandoned waist rotation in his BH movement around the same time too...

Mickd's video was quite interesting too, there's a lot of earlier clips of Ma Long, you can see how early days Ma Long had quite a bit of waist rotation on both FH and BH.... The Rotterdam WTTC 2011 training videos were the most obvious...


Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 4:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


It is not easy to.descrive to be honest.  The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends  of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer.  However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
I don't think that is a reasonable comparison. This backhand technique won't be used that much, since you don't open up against backspin "that" frequently with the backhand. Also people that deadlift use huge amounts of weight. There's a difference between walking around with a hunched back, and picking up a few hundred points with a hunched back. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
I don't think that is a reasonable comparison. This backhand technique won't be used that much, since you don't open up against backspin "that" frequently with the backhand. Also people that deadlift use huge amounts of weight. There's a difference between walking around with a hunched back, and picking up a few hundred points with a hunched back. 

Why bend at the waist when you can bend at the hips?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 9:38pm
there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.

I understand your point, I'm just trying to point out that for the bowing/unbowing action it is better to bend/unbend at the hips rather than at the waist for similar reasons (avoid bending at the lower back). Apologies if the message wasn't as clear as intended. 

It's like smoking, we all know longterm smoking is dangerous for health, but just a few smokes? The risk might be much smaller, or it could be proportional. But the question is why take the risk when you can avoid it completely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/18/2019 at 10:09pm
Edit: double post deleted

Edited by blahness - 03/18/2019 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 7:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


It is not easy to.descrive to be honest.  The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends  of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer.  However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.

I think I understand how Harimoto is doing it. You can have a clockwise  hip rotation with your left leg in front of your right, but it is not the same way as that of the FH, it's a different mechanism. Basically to feel it try this with your left leg in front of your right, your right leg starts off bent and left leg straight. If you rotate your hips clockwise your right leg will end up straight and left leg ends up bent. It won't give you a 90 deg rotation like that on the FH side, but it's something which is better than nothing (about 45 degrees only).  In a sense, you still push off your right leg more than your left leg in the BH if you use this method of hip rotation!


Edited by blahness - 03/19/2019 at 7:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 8:18am
I gotta say Harimoto is a genius.... With this he never needs to transition between "BH feet" and "FH feet", no need for compromises that a square position brings. He can do hip rotation on both wings easily so the power is not lost. Also he always pushes off his right foot so there's no confusion about which way to place his weight on more. No wonder he is so insanely fast!

Also because his right foot is behind the left foot, pushing from the right foot on the BH will always result in a more forward force, leading to a higher quality BH. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2019 at 8:57am
That counterclockwise rotation of the hips in the sh-bh is related to the counter driving pen hold bh that is possible with a sh grip because the stroke is thrusting the elbow forward and the fluidity from the legs can be maintained without special effort. It can be super useful when a block catches us in the elbow after a too slow fh recovery for example.
Tom Veatch in the early 2k at a local club experienced many hybrid grips made of papier mâché and in one of them, that kind of bh he borrowed from ph was dominant but it’s easily adaptable to a sh grip.
In that sh ph-bh stroke, the paddle goes always on the same line than the direction of the ball, the hand slightly to the right to make room for the paddle and the wrist adds up onto the punch gesture, all that was enhanced by the counter clockwise rotation of the hips.
It’s a bit counter intuitive since the hips and wrist are going opposite directions but the force they bring in is still directed forward without power loss on the way.


Edited by fatt - 03/19/2019 at 11:50am
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