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Best long pips rubber to chop

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HowardJ View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/21/2021 at 4:47am
I am looking for good long pips for chopping

I used to play a lot during 38 mm ball. Then I stopped. I have been playing a little after pandemic. But now I find that I get no back spin at all from my long pips. I am told because it is because of 40 mm plastic ball.

Can someone suggest some good chopping pips ?  I was also curious how various long pips give more or less back spin depending on design. I am trying to understand more

I am even told I am better off switching to short pips or even spinny reverse rubber both sides. I use Mark V on Forehand.

Any help is appreciated.

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vanjr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 11:11am
HowardJ, I think LP is the best option for chopping. I think grippy pips are best. Most choppers like sponge as well. I think what is most important is training time and coaching. Cheaper LP options like dawei 388 d-1, friendship 755, or more expensive LP like TSP P1r or P4. The main thing is stay with what you are using.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by HowardJ HowardJ wrote:

I am looking for good long pips for chopping

I used to play a lot during 38 mm ball. Then I stopped. I have been playing a little after pandemic. But now I find that I get no back spin at all from my long pips. I am told because it is because of 40 mm plastic ball.

Can someone suggest some good chopping pips ?  I was also curious how various long pips give more or less back spin depending on design. I am trying to understand more

I am even told I am better off switching to short pips or even spinny reverse rubber both sides. I use Mark V on Forehand.

Any help is appreciated.

First of all, what are you using on the now? Maybe it has something to do with the rubber or your chopping stroke. anyway 388D-1, galaxy neptune, or 729 837 are good enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 3:14pm
I thought the amount of backspin from a chop is mainly dependent on the amount of topspin the opponent put on the ball. Maybe some LP can add abit of spin but I don't know any useful LP that can put heavy spin on its own. If I remember correctly LP is still the king of heavy chops against loops while SP is better at varying the amount of spin each chop. That being said I think there are just generally less spin with the modern 40+ plastic balls then 38 celluloids.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dofu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2021 at 9:55pm
I've switched from Tsp curl p1r (which I used for years) to Tsp Millitall 2 a while ago. The millitall is basically the same pips as the curl, but a bit shorter, so I guess they'd be considered medium pips. With the heavier balls, I find this really helps control the pace and spin a lot better than LP while still getting decent reversal. It really feels like the best of both worlds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2021 at 11:35am
Knowing what you are currently using might help us to know what to suggest.  

It sounds like you want a pip with some grip, so something like TSP p1 or p4, oh, and TSP is becoming Victas.  From what I understand they will keep the certification for the TSP products for a few years, and you might find the TSP products discounted at some websites.  Victas would be newer stock.  These are known for being a little more difficult to use for players not used to them, so may have a steeper learning curve.

The TSP Millitall II I don't remember seeing on the Victas website.  Something similar might be Nittaku Pimplemini.  

Any solution is going to require you to find a pip and stick with it.  The chop with p1 is different than chop with other pips like Grass DTec, which is a much less grippy pip or Butterfly Feint II which is somewhat in-between the other 2.  Which is why I was wondering what you currently use. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2021 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Globan Globan wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

  SP is better at varying the amount of spin each chop.

Assuming this is true, please explain how you do this (with short pips) 

SP could chop a no-spin serve to a heavy back spin return
SP could make a no-spin chop vs a heavy slow topspin while LP couldn't do that.
how?
It works similarly to the inverted rubber in term of making spin. however, SP is less sensitive to coming spin than the inverted rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2021 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Globan Globan wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

  SP is better at varying the amount of spin each chop.

Assuming this is true, please explain how you do this (with short pips) 

You don't have to assume, it is true! Here is an interview with one of the Taiwanese team who is a sp chopper; she also demonstrates her strokes. 

https://youtu.be/NllSrqaxGF8 (sorry it is all in chinese, but you can see from her movements)

Sp is better then LP at generating spin and also better then inverted at scrubbing off spin to produce a low spin ball; using the two characteristics effectively will allow for a greater variety of spin on chops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dofu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/24/2021 at 9:22pm
Can confirm. You don't get the wild frictionless reversal of long pips, but the variety spin you can impart is the tradeoff. Easy to add your own backspin if you practice a bit, you can't be a lazy chopper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/25/2021 at 10:08am
To each his own I guess! If you can be more dynamic and generate more variation with your LP than the like of Hou and Wu then all the power to you! 
I do agree with you on one point, is that people will believe what they believe like a religion especially on an internet forumWink


Edited by JohnnyChop - 07/25/2021 at 10:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote BlackCat510 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2021 at 6:24pm
I play with the DHS Cloud and Fog 3 long pips in 1.0mm on my backhand. It is quite fast and has a medium-low grip. 

From what I understand, there are basically 4 different types of chopping pips:

High reversal/low grip pips:
These long pips have minimal grip on the ball, so reverse the spin of a ball sent at them WITH ENOUGH SPIN. They have stiff pips, so the spin sent at them is retained and therefore reversed, from the point of view of the opponent. So a heavy topspin ball is sent back with heavy backspin, but these pips have difficulty with playing spin against no spin balls. They are difficult and deceptive to play against for an opponent and are considered by some to be ‘junk rubbers’. They are generally used in OX (no sponge) for at the table chop blocking, but some people use them for chopping. You will not have much control over the spin though. They are probably quite difficult to use to chop against very skilled opponents and further away from the table, because you have less control over the rubber. Pros don’t use them. Eg include Spinlord Dornenglanz

Medium reversal/medium grip pips:
These long pips have some grip, but also reverse the spin a decent amount, so you can vary the spin between backspin, backspin-sidespin and no spin and have some spin reversal. These are the most used long pimples for chopping and can create the most total backspin out of all long pips but only have medium grip. They are better for chopping during the rally than in the opening chop, because they with have more spin to reverse as the rally goes on. Grippier long pips are better for the first chop, when the ball needs to be spun by the chopper because there is less spin already on the ball. 
Eg DHS Cloud and Fog 3, TSP Curl P1R (more grip than C&F3, I have heard), Butterfly Feint Long 2, Yinhe Neptune (considered a cheap alternative to the P1R) and Joola Octopus (a rubber Chen Weixing made so he could continue to essentially play with the P1R, without violating his Joola sponsorship contract)

High grip/low reversal long pips:
These pips have a small amount of spin reversal (like all long pips) but have the highest grip of all long pips, so you can create more of your own spin with these, if that makes sense. So these are best if you want the control and impact absorption of long pips, but want to create your own spin. They are typically better for chopping earlier in the rally, when high grip is needed because there is less spin to reverse, better than lower grip/higher reversal pips and for attacking (because of their good control and soft sponge). They are a rare kind of long pips and have a very soft sponge, so are quite slow and not for everybody. Eg TSP Curl P4 or Butterfly Feint Long 3

Short Pips:
Chopping short pips have no spin reversal and much more grip than long pips, so are much better for varying the spin than long pips. They can also deal well with no spin balls, because a lot of spin can be generated by the player and they are better at flat hitting than most long pips. They don’t have the impact absorption and chopping control of long pips, so are a significant challenge to chop with. However, there are more professional short pip choppers than long pip choppers, because of their attacking ability and spin variation ability and even Joo Se Hyuk, a chopping legend, has suggested in an interview that he would play with short pips if he began his career again, because they are better for creating and varying your own spin than long pips. Make sure you get a slower or chopping short pip, high tension attacking short pips are far too fast. Most pro choppers and a lot of female choppers now use short pips. 
Eg include TSP Super Spinpips Chop 2 and 729 802

Inverted chopping:
Spin creation principle is similar to short pips. So even less control than short pips, but more spin creation. I used to chop with inverted classic rubbers on both sides and if you get the wrong angle, the ball will sail off the table. Much control is needed, but many chops have massive backspin and must be pushed. By all means try it, but you need amazing control and footwork and it is not recommended, but it is deadly if you can do it. I only know of 1 low ranked pro who chops with inverted. 

So in conclusion:

If you play close to the table and don’t mind not making your own spin, a thinner sponge is recommended, for greater spin reversal and control. Low grip/high reversal pips can be used.

If you play from mid distance, pips with sponge are recommended for extra power. Medium to high grip long pips or short pips are good for varying spin (to confuse the opponent into missing the table, hitting the net or playing a weak shot). 

If you want to create your own backspin, play with high grip long pips or chopping short pips.

If you are playing against extremely heavy loopers, play with grippyish long pips with a harder sponge, to absorb the impact, such as the Joola Octopus. If you want a deceptive attack, play with a softer tension sponged long pips, like the DHS Cloud and Fog 3 or the Tibhar Grass D Tecs (in sponge). 

If you are playing very high level chopping, what you need most of all is spin variation and good control. So pros who value control over variation choose the TSP Curl P1R and the pros who value variation and ease of attack over control choose short pips (Joo Se Hyuk sometimes use the Tibhar Grass d tecs long pips for its attacking ability). 

If you want cheap chopping long pips, I play with the DHS Cloud and Fog 3 and have a lot of fun with it. Other people have recommended the Yinhe Neptune, which is probably slower that the C&F3. Both are probably about £10-15.
If you want a more expensive, higher grip long pimple, try the TSP rubbers. 




Edited by BlackCat510 - 07/30/2021 at 3:40am
Attacking Setup:
Blade — Joola Aruna Off+
FH — Joola Rhyzm P
BH — Nittaku Fastarc G1

Chopping Setup:
Blade — Tuttle Winner Allround
FH — DHS NEO Hurricane 3
BH — DHS Cloud & Fog 3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Veet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2021 at 1:05am
Thanks for the detailed explanation, BlackCat510

I've recently started playing with a DHS Cloud & Fog 1mm sponge.. Someone gave it to me .. I've glued it to my Defplay Senso .. Initially, I found it to be fast'ish & a tad springy .. However, now that I've sort of got the hang of it, I agree - It's fun to play with.

Inexpensive chopping LPs, I'd recommend are Dawei 388D(-1), and Yinhe Neptune.. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2021 at 9:32am
Nice post blackcat!

I originally started playing with LP in OX. I have gone to sponge (along with a hilarious attempt at SP chopping) and am now back at LP in OX. I should have never changed LP in OX. LP players such as myself are the worst of sinners/EJs (sorry Paul).

Then we can talk about the blade options...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopsquatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2021 at 10:04am
Great post BlackCat!

I thought I'd add that in addition to Joo's comment about long pips, he actually is NOT using long pips anymore (at least not max length). He's currently using Victas/TSP Curl P3 alpha R, which supposedly has shorter pips than P1r (I guess it'd be considered a medium pip, or at least a not max-length long pip?). 

I'm not sure if he switched for the ability to hit with the pips more often or for the ability to make more spin on its own (or both), but there seems to be a trend for players who specialize in long defense to favor short or medium pips in favor of long pips!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert_Sun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2021 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by BlackCat510 BlackCat510 wrote:

Joo Se Hyuk, a chopping legend, has suggested in an interview that he would play with short pips if he began his career again, because they are better for creating and varying your own spin than long pips.


Can you please kindly quote the web link for this interview ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopsquatch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/29/2021 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Robert_Sun Robert_Sun wrote:

Originally posted by BlackCat510 BlackCat510 wrote:

Joo Se Hyuk, a chopping legend, has suggested in an interview that he would play with short pips if he began his career again, because they are better for creating and varying your own spin than long pips.


Can you please kindly quote the web link for this interview ?


Here's the interview: https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=22125

Here Joo mentions that, "...my guess is that long pips will be less beneficial when the ball changes to plastic in 2014. I've used it, and found that much less spin is produced."

Also, he later states, "...Again, it's likely that the new ball will be a hinderance for long pip users."

EDIT: He doesn't actually mention switching to short pips in this interview, but he IS at least mentioning that long pips will be less effective with the ball. Not sure if he's mentioned short pips in another interview


Edited by Hopsquatch - 07/29/2021 at 12:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BlackCat510 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/30/2021 at 3:33am
Here’s a link to a great post by Force2brw, a far more accomplished chopper than I am:


The poster breaks down the physics as to why the various types of long pips behave the way they do and how they return different sorts of spin of different sorts of shots. Greg Letts also has a great explanation for how spin reversal works, if you’re interested:


I didn’t find that my Cloud and Fog 3 had enough reversal to completely bamboozle my opponent, but I did have to shorten my chopping swings to stop myself overshooting the table, due to its high ish reversal and high speed (for a long pip). If you buy a grippy and slow long pip like the P4, prepare to chop harder (to make your own spin and speed). 
Attacking Setup:
Blade — Joola Aruna Off+
FH — Joola Rhyzm P
BH — Nittaku Fastarc G1

Chopping Setup:
Blade — Tuttle Winner Allround
FH — DHS NEO Hurricane 3
BH — DHS Cloud & Fog 3
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