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Blade Speed Comparison Sheet

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    Posted: 07/06/2017 at 10:45pm
Given that most of the links are buried in the original thread started by slevin, I wanted to make a separate post that we can perhaps get pinned so people can continuously contribute.

Here's the original quote
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

There is a simple way for us to compare relative blade speed of different forum members' blades. It is based on the correlation between frequency and blade speed.

  1. Download the Advanced Spectrum Analyzer PRO app in Android (by Vuche Labs, it is free)
  2. Open app
  3. Click on the 3 horizontal lines on the top right
  4. Select "Enable Peak Hold"
  5. Hit play
  6. Bounce the ball on the bare blade a few times
  7. Hit pause on the app. Then see frequency with peak amplitude
So far, I see a direct correlation between blade speed and frequency. 

The link to the spreadsheet is tinyurl.com/445tncuk

The Submission Form is here: https://goo.gl/VU3Mp8

UPDATED June 21 2023

Please contribute your findings as this is the only way how to keep this alive. Thank you!



Edited by h0n1g - 07/01/2023 at 11:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 1:21am
Mind that there are notable exceptions to the observed "direct correlation between blade speed and frequency". In my experience the frequency is rather representative of blade stiffness.

Anyways, here is another method for determining the main frequency, copied and slightly edited from this post of mine, back in 2010.

Originally posted by arg0 arg0 wrote:


Without going into complex mechanical considerations like it has been done in other threads, a simple way to estimate the vibration frequency of the membrane mode of a blade (see this post for indication of what this represents, it seems most likely to be representative of what is usually felt as blade stiffness) is to record the sound of a ball dropped on the center of the blade, while the handle is held lightly with one hand, and then looking at the highest peak of the spectrum of the recorded sound.

It goes like this (see also the attached images):
1. download and install Audacity from http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
2. Launch Audacity, press the record button.
3. Put the bat horizontally close to the microphone, holding it lightly with one hand.
4. Let a table tennis ball drop a few times on the bat from about 10-15 cm (4-6 in) height.
5. Stop recording.
6. Select Menu Analyze -> Plot Spectrum
7. Find the frequency of the highest peak in the spectrum and report it

This is Audacity showing the record button and an already recorded sound:


This is the Plot Spectrum option:


This is the spectrum: move the mouse (crosshair cursor) vertically close to the highest peak and read the corresponding frequency of the peak (highlighted in red):


It's really simple and requires no longer than 2 minutes.
(For the more technically minded, I know, this gives info only on one vibration mode, typically the membrane mode, but it's nevertheless an easy way to estimate blade stiffness...)


Update: in the "Axis" drop down menu, use "Log frequency" instead of "Linear frequency". The peak will be easier to select.


Edited by arg0 - 07/07/2017 at 3:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bobpuls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 1:50am
Hmmm i do not trust this ones ..... Cause some wood in combination with carbon or aramid or other woods create different sound ... this way you can measure only the stiffness but not the speed .... My fastest blade which i have has very low sound but simple carbon blade with balsa core and carbon has high pitch ass hell but still they are not so fast ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h0n1g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 1:54am
Are there exceptions? Yes. Is there a overwhelming numbers of actual correlations between frequency and speed so far? Yes.

is it the end all-be-all? No.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bobpuls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 1:55am
ok some correlations are there ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaiMile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 3:19am
HERE you can read more about performance indices. What is interesting is that Stiga clipper is much faster than carbon blades, according this lab tests. But I don't think it is in reality.

Edited by BaiMile - 07/07/2017 at 6:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 9:41am
To me the whole story with the frequencies is ridiculously funny..... needless to say more.
BTW, I own a small professional recording and mastering studio
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h0n1g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

To me the whole story with the frequencies is ridiculously funny..... needless to say more.
BTW, I own a small professional recording and mastering studio


Please enlighten us heathens and don't keep all the fun to yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by BaiMile BaiMile wrote:

HERE you can read more about performance indices. What is interesting is that Stiga clipper is much faster than carbon blades, according this lab tests. But I don't think it is in reality.

The problem is that I could not find a post explaining how the author converts the frequency response spectrum to the performance indices, i.e. how to actually calculate these indices.
Here he explains that the parameters are related to the spectrum, but not how.
Did I overlook something? Without this information, the indices are useless because we have to trust them blindly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 4:16pm
BTW, there was a similar effort to define objective blade characteristics on a separate website by forum member igsstern several years ago. If I remember well, he is Korean. He used 5 indices: speed level, bending stiffness, overall feel, index finger feel, repulsion feel. Here is a description of the indices that I had saved before the pages went offline.

I noticed that the data published by TTGearLab, is somewhat related, so it could be that the same - or a similar - machine is used.


Edited by arg0 - 11/16/2017 at 1:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote man_iii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 4:42pm
I'm not sure but is FRF the frequency plot of the noise generated by the bare blade when a poly-ball is bouncing on it with regular frequency ? 

I think if the vibration and sound produced by the blade when the ball bounces relates to the way the blade flexes, then the highest peak and lowest trough ... would correspond somehow to the flexing / torsion ? So if you take the first highest peak ( Natural frequency maybe ? ) and the 2nd higher peak ... those would give the max kick ... and energy loss due to vibration ( storing of the energy? ) and the deep trough surrounded by peaks, might indicate perhaps flex ( how bendy the blade is getting, before rebounding? ) maybe also blade dwell time might be how wide each peak or trough is or how many of them there are ? 

I dunno all this theory science stuff :-P :-)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 4:43pm
I also find the information on ttgearlabs website a bit lacking. There is neither enough information for an outsider to determine on how those indices are calculated, nor to fully understand what he actually means by each one. Furthermore I sometimes find that the sloppy english on the website does not facilitate said understanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h0n1g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 5:16pm
Anything can be exercised to the extreme. I'm not interested in buying laser tracking equipment to track ball-bounce and reflex speed in nano-seconds. My interest was much like Slevin's original post - get a ROUGH idea of the blade speed before you buy a $100, $150, $200 or $250 blade.

I believe the frequency testing as outlined provides this. This isn't supposed to be super-accurate nor should it ever be the ONLY consideration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6Finger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 5:25pm
Here you can find some relevant info on the subject
https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/introduction-to-table-tennis-blade-design/

I have been testing many blades for over a year now and allways checked frequency and so far it's spot on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by h0n1g h0n1g wrote:

Anything can be exercised to the extreme. I'm not interested in buying laser tracking equipment to track ball-bounce and reflex speed in nano-seconds. My interest was much like Slevin's original post - get a ROUGH idea of the blade speed before you buy a $100, $150, $200 or $250 blade.

I believe the frequency testing as outlined provides this. This isn't supposed to be super-accurate nor should it ever be the ONLY consideration.

I agree with you that it is fun to try to get the most out of data that everyone can easily record and contribute. I have been recording sounds for all blades I have bought, traded, or borrowed over the last years. Still, I believe the testing as outlined provides stiffness information, not speed.
In other words, by means of the highest-spectral-peak technique you get rather accurate info on the stiffness of the blade, not of speed.
Obviously, stiffness contributes to speed to some extent. So the formula "frequency proportional to speed" may reasonably work for some kind of blades, but not others. It we could figure out for which it does work, we can point this out in the table, or maybe define groups of blades that can be reliably compared to each other, but not to blades in the other groups...

If there's a way to get speed information by taking into account other easily measurable parameters, I would be happy to know. This is why I referred to TTGearLab's pages: apparently he is extracting his indices from the frequency spectra.

Quoting his analysis: "As the name itself expresses elasticity index means the elasticity (= stiffness) of blade. So it is directly concerned with speed of blade. Especially Ep is similar to speed. Ec becomes meaningful only when we hit blade very hard. The higher value of Ec means that the blade can give more ‘kick’ when we hit the blade very hard."

If Ep refers to the primary deflection, and Ec to the central deflection in his drawing:


That is, the primary deflection is the first bending mode, and the central deflection is the 3rd bending mode in these figures:




If this is correct, it's the first bending mode frequency that expresses a blade's speed, while the 3rd bending mode (the peak that is normally reported) amounts for the extra "kick" that we experience when we hit the ball hard.
So we would ideally need to report both peaks to get a reasonable idea of the blade's speed.
The problem is that, if I understand correctly, the 1st bending mode can only reliably be measured when the blade is clamped in a vice or similar, because otherwise it's deadened by the hand...

At this point I can also guess that TTGearLab's other two indices Vp and Vl correspond to some other frequencies, e.g. the frequencies of the 1st and 2nd twisting modes (or 1st twisting and 2nd bending):
"Vibration index means the level of vibration. Vp is directly concerned with longitudinal bending vibration, and it is mainly transferred to player’s palm. Vl is concerned with lateral vibration of blade head, and player can feel it at fingertip of index finger. So Vp and Vl can be translated as ‘feeling’. The higher value of Vp or Vl means sharper feeling."
But I'm just guessing.

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Edited by arg0 - 07/07/2017 at 7:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/07/2017 at 8:41pm
Few questions: what mic would give the best results recording the sound of a blade? Condenser, dynamic, tube or ribbon? Which polar pattern? Do we all have to record with the same mic cause otherwise the results are going to be hugely different. For example my modest and relatively cheap Neumann TLM 103 will make my blades sound way more beautiful than most here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 2:08am
The frequency of the main peak will be nearly the same. I've recorded a few blades repeatedly with different mics, mostly from mobile phones and the frequency differs at most by about 20-30Hz. Try it.
It is way more crucial that you hold the blade weigh the same strength each time. The easiest is as lightly as possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 2:10am
Not sure about the rest of the spectrum. If you have access to professional equipment it would be useful if you could make a simultaneous recording with a mobile phone as well and post the differences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 7:11am
I dare saying that even the mobile phone mics vary drastically, so to have reliable results you must set a standard, or a reference mic, (S7+ for example) , than you should set a distance from the source......and still that's all veeery vague .
The only way I see it is to set those standards and compare blades ONLY from the same brand and model(TB ALC for example)
There are tons of spectrum analyser software, plug ins or stand-alone, but the results will be as good as the mic will be.
With other words the better the mic, the louder the record,the more the harmonics , the better the results
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 7:30am
You need an accelerometer or a strain gauge if you want to measure the first few modes, with reliable accuracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 8:27am
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

I dare saying that even the mobile phone mics vary drastically, so to have reliable results you must set a standard, or a reference mic, (S7+ for example) , than you should set a distance from the source......and still that's all veeery vague .
The only way I see it is to set those standards and compare blades ONLY from the same brand and model(TB ALC for example)
There are tons of spectrum analyser software, plug ins or stand-alone, but the results will be as good as the mic will be.
With other words the better the mic, the louder the record,the more the harmonics , the better the results

Maybe in practice, the differences are not as big as you think they are for the specific thing being looked at?  We aren't doing precision rocket science here or making commercial quality music.  We are testing blades and allowing a margin of error of 100Hz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 9:58am
I didn't think for a moment that we were doing precision rocket science or a commercial music. No, not me. I am here because I love ttennis and BTW all the blades I have or had are/were in similar range OFF/OFF+ , all of them having different structure, thickness, flex and sound. So I say the sound can not be a factor telling me how quick or flexible a blade will be. Bye

Edited by Kolev - 07/08/2017 at 10:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 10:59am
No, please wait Kolev - we need you :)
Let's just take one step at a time. We don't need to accurately compare blade speed yet. What we want to know now is whether the first and second bending mode offer any new insight compared to what the third bending mode told us already. Therefore it would be very nice if someone with the neccesary knowledge and equipment could aid us by trying to measure those mid to low freqs below 1khz. A mic  with good resolution and somewhat linear response in the low freqs could do the trick.

Kolev, you argue that there are too many variables to make any claims judging from frequency response, but you fail to acknowledge that we can isolate at least some of those variables. For example, weight comes to mind easily. Eventually we might not be able to accurately compare blade speed, but we will be able to make better judgements when buying a new blade (if we know its freq resp).


Edited by Hozuki - 07/08/2017 at 10:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 4:25pm
Answering a few of the recent post:

For the lower freq, the problem is not just the mic, it's how the blade is hold/fixed, because the vibrations will be partially absorbed by the hand and not generate sound. Accelerometers or strain gages fixed to the back side of the blade would make things easier, but again the blade needs to be clamped to vibrate. Moreover, if we start adding sensors or more complicated equipment, then very few people could contribute, and we're trying to see where we can get with equipment that is available in (nearly) every home.

The lower frequency modes are in the 100-1000 Hz range. From some frequency response cuve I've seen here, you can expect a decent smartphone mic to have a decently flat response between 200 Hz and 2 kHz, where the main speech frequencies are. For everything above or below, I think Kolev is right, you need better equipment. Not sure how good the mics from current flagship phones are, but I suppose they are optimised for small size, not flat frequency response. You may be better off with some flagship from few generations ago, like the Nokia phones with HAAC microphones.

Distance from source, height of drop, etc. do not count, because we just care about the intensity of peaks (or, at most, at some future point, the relative intensity between peaks). So the actual sound level should not be relevant.

Different software will create (slightly) different spectra, and that's also fine: the peaks will be at the right place, 30Hz more or less won't matter too much.

Blade weight has very little influence on the spectra.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

[...] all the blades I have or had are/were in similar range OFF/OFF+ , all of them having different structure, thickness, flex and sound. [...]

Different sound, yes. Different main peak frequencies in the spectra?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 6:26pm
All: may I suggest that we only use this thread to post blade peak amplitude frequencies?

Let us post all discussions in the other thread I started. Keep this one clean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 6:49pm
It doesn't matter if the blade is clamped or gripped by the hand, an accelerometer or strain gauge will pick up what the mic can't.

BTW, a clamped blade behaves far differently from a gripped blade.

Edited by zeio - 07/08/2017 at 7:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 9:44pm
So if I was a robot holding a blade by clamping I would experience different playing characteristics then the rest of you? Lol, sorry :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote h0n1g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2017 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

All: may I suggest that we only use this thread to post blade peak amplitude frequencies?

Let us post all discussions in the other thread I started. Keep this one clean.


This
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/09/2017 at 2:28am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

All: may I suggest that we only use this thread to post blade peak amplitude frequencies?

Let us post all discussions in the other thread I started. Keep this one clean.

You mean everyone has to copy over their posts to the other thread?
Btw, didn't h0n1g create a site for reporting the frequencies (first post), so should we use his tool or post them here?
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