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Chen Wang and Victor Liu demand for arbitration

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    Posted: 05/14/2019 at 11:14pm
From Chen Wang's Facebook page:

The attached AMENDED DEMAND FOR ARBITRATION is filed on behalf of Ms. Chen Wang and Mr. Victor Liu, both aggrieved athletes pursuant to Section 220522(a)(4)(B) of The Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act and Section 9 of the Bylaws of the United States Olympic Committee. Claimants respectfully allege, by their attorneys, Stewart Occhipinti, LLP, as follows........



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/14/2019 at 11:46pm
let the games begin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote danseemiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 7:09am
The Olympic Trials are the single most important event in USA Table Tennis. 
Players train for years for this opportunity. To have only one spot open for trials and 2 selected 
is unfair.  
Olympics are different than Pro Tour or World title events. For Pro Tour or World title events some selection is necessary but the Olympics should be hands off.

DS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 1:45pm
So, like in English, they sued for not getting picked for the Olympics (or not having a chance to fight/play for it)?
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

From Chen Wang's Facebook page:

The attached AMENDED DEMAND FOR ARBITRATION is filed on behalf of Ms. Chen Wang and Mr. Victor Liu, both aggrieved athletes pursuant to Section 220522(a)(4)(B) of The Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act and Section 9 of the Bylaws of the United States Olympic Committee. Claimants respectfully allege, by their attorneys, Stewart Occhipinti, LLP, as follows........



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:06pm
from what I read, the selection did not follow the criteria specified by the international org. (forgot the name)  USTTA might be ruled against here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

So, like in English, they sued for not getting picked for the Olympics (or not having a chance to fight/play for it)?
Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

From Chen Wang's Facebook page:

The attached AMENDED DEMAND FOR ARBITRATION is filed on behalf of Ms. Chen Wang and Mr. Victor Liu, both aggrieved athletes pursuant to Section 220522(a)(4)(B) of The Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act and Section 9 of the Bylaws of the United States Olympic Committee. Claimants respectfully allege, by their attorneys, Stewart Occhipinti, LLP, as follows........




They are arguing that coach's selection for the Olympics is unfair.  This makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:10pm
Highly recommend anyone to give it a more complete read through when you have the time (at least the first several pages). The lawsuit will definitely have a strong case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:19pm
can someone just summarize the whole case in simple English please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:23pm
^ +1
USATT: 2047 as of 2019
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

from what I read, the selection did not follow the criteria specified by the international org. (forgot the name)  USTTA might be ruled against here.
Or they might not be ruled against.  Will have to let the arbitration play out.  Under Exhibit "D" (USOC Athlete and Staff Selection Procedures Instruction Manual) on page 6 does allow for discretionary selection:

Use objective based criteria or discretionary/subjective criteria that are supported by objective measures.

So the question is can it be shown that USATT is not using objective measures in basing their subjective decision if it comes down to it.  For the Olympics, here are the measures:

The following criteria will be considered by the Olympic Games Selection Committee in no particular order, and considering both singles and doubles: 

1. March 2020 ITTF World Ranking 
2. Results at the 2020 USATT Olympic Games Trial 
3. Results at the 2019 ITTF North American Olympic Team and 2020 ITTF World Team Qualification 
4. Competitive international competition results (ITTF events and international leagues) over the period from 18th April 2019 to 31st March 2020 
5. Results at National Ranking Tournaments over the period from 18th April 2019 to 31st March 2020 
6. Declaration of participation in future Olympic Games preparation camps and competitions and training per Section 9 of this document.

I'm not a lawyer, but those look to be pretty objective measures to base a subjective decision upon. Guess we'll have to wait and see. 

Keep in mind that table tennis is not the only Olympic sport that uses discretionary selection... ex: basketball, cycling, equestrian.  Also, as a point of clarification, there is at most *one* spot per gender that can potentially be determined by discretionary selection.  Singles Trial winner and Highest World Ranking are the other two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:31pm
Basically there are USOC bylaws that do not permit the use of non discretionary criteria for athlete selection u unless in certain cases. The current US team selection criteria are not consistent with these exceptions and therefore is in conflict with the bylaws.  Trials are more consistent with the kind of objectivity sought.  

Part of the reason why the Panamerican Games are relevant is that they are an Olympic qualifier.  The other is that you can't square Tio over Liu and Amy Wang over Xinyue Wang and Crystal Wang for the PanAm games with any objective criteria including ranking.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

from what I read, the selection did not follow the criteria specified by the international org. (forgot the name)  USTTA might be ruled against here.
Or they might not be ruled against.  Will have to let the arbitration play out.  Under Exhibit "D" (USOC Athlete and Staff Selection Procedures Instruction Manual) on page 6 does allow for discretionary selection:

Use objective based criteria or discretionary/subjective criteria that are supported by objective measures.

So the question is can it be shown that USATT is not using objective measures in basing their subjective decision if it comes down to it.  For the Olympics, here are the measures:

The following criteria will be considered by the Olympic Games Selection Committee in no particular order, and considering both singles and doubles: 

1. March 2020 ITTF World Ranking 
2. Results at the 2020 USATT Olympic Games Trial 
3. Results at the 2019 ITTF North American Olympic Team and 2020 ITTF World Team Qualification 
4. Competitive international competition results (ITTF events and international leagues) over the period from 18th April 2019 to 31st March 2020 
5. Results at National Ranking Tournaments over the period from 18th April 2019 to 31st March 2020 
6. Declaration of participation in future Olympic Games preparation camps and competitions and training per Section 9 of this document.

I'm not a lawyer, but those look to be pretty objective measures to base a subjective decision upon. Guess we'll have to wait and see. 

Keep in mind that table tennis is not the only Olympic sport that uses discretionary selection... ex: basketball, cycling, equestrian.  Also, as a point of clarification, there is at most *one* spot per gender that can potentially be determined by discretionary selection.  Singles Trial winner and Highest World Ranking are the other two.

Yes, a lot will come down to whether the new USATT criteria fulfill the interpretation of discretionary criteria supported by objective measures.  Table tennis is not more objective than cycling.  And as you pointed out, only.one spot is discretionary now as they have given one spot to the individual with the highest ittf ranking. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 2:43pm
Here is cycling where there seems to be some separation between the coaches and the selecting committee. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 3:36pm
Not a lawyer either, but what seems to be an important detail is that athlete selection procedures need to be approved by the USOC at least 6 months prior to any evaluative event - it seems that this was not done in the past, and it will be too late now for the Pan Am Games which commence in about 2 months from now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 3:38pm
I am curious regarding the allegations that the HPD struck down input from athlete reps and other board members on things that were supposed to be committee decisions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dsc13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Basically there are USOC bylaws that do not permit the use of non discretionary criteria for athlete selection u unless in certain cases. The current US team selection criteria are not consistent with these exceptions and therefore is in conflict with the bylaws.  Trials are more consistent with the kind of objectivity sought.  


Can you provide the actual section of the bylaws that outlaws non-discretionary critera?

Below is the undisputably accepted criteria for a well-known and obvious sport, which is completely discretionary, yet no one has challenged it or argued against it.  If we apply the criteria the majority of the forum members seem to support, the selection of this NGB are completely unfair. In addition, one could even argue that this criteria would obviously result in a under-performing team with no chance of success, which would be completely untrue based on recent results.

There are more examples if one actually cares to spend time looking:

"The identification and nomination of players will be based on the following criteria (note that the selection criteria listed below are NOT listed in any order of importance): 
- United States citizenship 
- Availability 
- Position played 
- Playing ability 
- Versatility to play other positions 
- Coachability 
- Attitude 
- Adaptability to team concept 
- Leadership 
- Adaptability to international game 
- Likelihood of contributing to success of team"


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by dsc13 dsc13 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Basically there are USOC bylaws that do not permit the use of non discretionary criteria for athlete selection u unless in certain cases. The current US team selection criteria are not consistent with these exceptions and therefore is in conflict with the bylaws.  Trials are more consistent with the kind of objectivity sought.  


Can you provide the actual section of the bylaws that outlaws non-discretionary critera?

Below is the undisputably accepted criteria for a well-known and obvious sport, which is completely discretionary, yet no one has challenged it or argued against it.  If we apply the criteria the majority of the forum members seem to support, the selection of this NGB are completely unfair. In addition, one could even argue that this criteria would obviously result in a under-performing team with no chance of success, which would be completely untrue based on recent results.

There are more examples if one actually cares to spend time looking:

"The identification and nomination of players will be based on the following criteria (note that the selection criteria listed below are NOT listed in any order of importance): 
- United States citizenship 
- Availability 
- Position played 
- Playing ability 
- Versatility to play other positions 
- Coachability 
- Attitude 
- Adaptability to team concept 
- Leadership 
- Adaptability to international game 
- Likelihood of contributing to success of team"




Is this basketball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dsc13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


Is this basketball?

You gotta it! :)

Let's not forget that the USOC has approved the current USATT's selection procedures.  I would assume if there were any doubts about the fairness or legality of these procedures, the USOC would NOT have approved them.

Here's another interesting tibit taken directly from the USOC's website, where they explicity acknowledge and implictly accept the use of discrectionary criteria for team selection.  Underlining is mine. 


Games Qualification and Selection
National Olympic Committees – such as the USOC in the United States – earn national quota spots to compete at each of these international, multi-sport events, which are then allocated to individual athletes and teams. 

Athletes are selected to fill these quota spots and represent Team USA at the Games based on a set of criteria and standards specific to their sport. These standards are established by International Federations that govern each sport on a global level and administered by National Federations (called National Governing Bodies in the United States). Some NGBs utilize subjective selection procedures such as evaluation at competitions and team selection camps, while other team selections are results-based pending placement at trials competition and well-defined scoring systems.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by dsc13 dsc13 wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


Is this basketball?

You gotta it! :)

Let's not forget that the USOC has approved the current USATT's selection procedures.  I would assume if there were any doubts about the fairness or legality of these procedures, the USOC would NOT have approved them.

Here's another interesting tibit taken directly from the USOC's website, where they explicity acknowledge and implictly accept the use of discrectionary criteria for team selection.  Underlining is mine. 


Games Qualification and Selection
National Olympic Committees – such as the USOC in the United States – earn national quota spots to compete at each of these international, multi-sport events, which are then allocated to individual athletes and teams. 

Athletes are selected to fill these quota spots and represent Team USA at the Games based on a set of criteria and standards specific to their sport. These standards are established by International Federations that govern each sport on a global level and administered by National Federations (called National Governing Bodies in the United States). Some NGBs utilize subjective selection procedures such as evaluation at competitions and team selection camps, while other team selections are results-based pending placement at trials competition and well-defined scoring systems.



First off, you cannot compare a team sport versus an individual sport in this situation. For a TT team, without any prior knowledge of the draw, your best team is going to be the one comprised of the best players. Positions and various skill sets are far less relevant in singles TT play than any team sport.

And the USA's dominance of basketball has nothing to do with selection procedures but simply that the far and away best players are from the USA. Also, winning the Olympics is not really considered a big deal in the NBA realm - it is telling that many stars prefer to take the summer off and decline their invite to team USA. The implications are just totally different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by dsc13 dsc13 wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


Is this basketball?

You gotta it! :)

Let's not forget that the USOC has approved the current USATT's selection procedures.  I would assume if there were any doubts about the fairness or legality of these procedures, the USOC would NOT have approved them.

Here's another interesting tibit taken directly from the USOC's website, where they explicity acknowledge and implictly accept the use of discrectionary criteria for team selection.  Underlining is mine. 


Games Qualification and Selection
National Olympic Committees – such as the USOC in the United States – earn national quota spots to compete at each of these international, multi-sport events, which are then allocated to individual athletes and teams. 

Athletes are selected to fill these quota spots and represent Team USA at the Games based on a set of criteria and standards specific to their sport. These standards are established by International Federations that govern each sport on a global level and administered by National Federations (called National Governing Bodies in the United States). Some NGBs utilize subjective selection procedures such as evaluation at competitions and team selection camps, while other team selections are results-based pending placement at trials competition and well-defined scoring systems.


It is possible for a subjective process (based on objective criteria) to be deemed the best if it fits the criteria for the sport.  Without objections, it is quite possible that the current process was rubber stamped without understanding some of the nuances of table tennis. 

Cycling has very long trials and events and one might not want to have people competing in a trial to pick the team.   Basketball is a team sport so you need all the pieces to fit together and some of that is subjective. 

But in TT traditionally, performance is very individual.  You do find a fairly stable hierarchy emerges from trials etc. though some things can go wrong.  What I think will be brought into focus is whether there is sufficient separation of interests between the selection committee and the athletes such that there is no bias that can hurt the team.  Some coaches I have spoken to in other countries almost never use their discretion to do anything when they have it. There are points systems in play.

Where it gets interesting IMO is that you need weighting that will justify Tio over Liu and Amy over Xinyue/Crystal.   Can you get a simple points rating system that justifies that without unreasonable discretion?  It would be interesting to hear what drove the decision.  Tio has the higher ITTF ranking but that doesn't work for Amy.  Maybe she is a better doubles partner??


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 5:16pm
I think there's a reasonable case to be made for Amy to go to the 2019 Pan Am Championships.  Here's the list of reasons used from the article, USA Table Tennis Complete Selection of 2019 Pan American Games Team :
  • 2nd rank junior in the world
  • strong adult ranking
  • Gold and Silver at French Junior and Cadet Open
  • Silver at Pan Am Juniors
  • a near-upset of the world?s 10th ranked woman (Feng Tianwei)
Not mentioned in the article, but to me, next to the near upset of FTW I think probably the most impressive feat is her win over Kuai Man at the 2019 Italian Junior/Cadet Open.  Kuai Man, a 15yr old from China, is the top cadet in the world.  I know there's the age difference, but everyone knows how good the top cadets from China/Japan are.

The world ranking story is pretty close.  Amy's WR is #239. Wang Xinyue's WR is #205.
Amy's points are more spread out:

2018-04 WANG Amy    USA 2018 - World Team Table Tennis Championships, Halmstad (SWE)    500 Team
2019-04 WANG Amy    USA 2019 - World Table Tennis Championships, Budapest (HUN) 450 Rnd of 128
2018-02 WANG Amy    USA 2018 - Team World Cup, London (ENG) 300 Team

Xinyue's points are mostly the 2018 Pan Am Championships:

2018-11 WANG Xinyue USA 2018 - ITTF Panam Championships, Santiago (CHI) 1080    Rnd of 16
2018-12 WANG Xinyue USA 2018 - US Open, Florida, Orlando (USA)  180 Rnd of 16
2018-04 WANG Xinyue USA 2018 - World Team Table Tennis Championships, Halmstad (SWE)    180 Team
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 5:22pm
pongfugrasshopper,

I think the question is whether you are selecting the best or most qualified players when you look at the Olympics.  Is Amy really a better player than Xinyue?  Or is there an argument that selecting Amy gives us a better chance to win than selecting Xinyue?  And if so, how was that determined?

I think a distinction can be made between  ITTF events and events like the Olympics and other international Games. Or maybe not
 Let me know what you think.


Edited by NextLevel - 05/15/2019 at 5:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

I think there's a reasonable case to be made for Amy to go to the 2019 Pan Am Championships.  Here's the list of reasons used from the article, USA Table Tennis Complete Selection of 2019 Pan American Games Team :
  • 2nd rank junior in the world
  • strong adult ranking
  • Gold and Silver at French Junior and Cadet Open
  • Silver at Pan Am Juniors
  • a near-upset of the world?s 10th ranked woman (Feng Tianwei)
Not mentioned in the article, but to me, next to the near upset of FTW I think probably the most impressive feat is her win over Kuai Man at the 2019 Italian Junior/Cadet Open.  Kuai Man, a 15yr old from China, is the top cadet in the world.  I know there's the age difference, but everyone knows how good the top cadets from China/Japan are.

The world ranking story is pretty close.  Amy's WR is #239. Wang Xinyue's WR is #205.
Amy's points are more spread out:

2018-04 WANG Amy    USA 2018 - World Team Table Tennis Championships, Halmstad (SWE)    500 Team
2019-04 WANG Amy    USA 2019 - World Table Tennis Championships, Budapest (HUN) 450 Rnd of 128
2018-02 WANG Amy    USA 2018 - Team World Cup, London (ENG) 300 Team

Xinyue's points are mostly the 2018 Pan Am Championships:

2018-11 WANG Xinyue USA 2018 - ITTF Panam Championships, Santiago (CHI) 1080    Rnd of 16
2018-12 WANG Xinyue USA 2018 - US Open, Florida, Orlando (USA)  180 Rnd of 16
2018-04 WANG Xinyue USA 2018 - World Team Table Tennis Championships, Halmstad (SWE)    180 Team
not really following USA TT but , even if you disregard the WR, in the trials , Amy had a 5-4 record and lost to both of the other Wangs (both 6-3).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

pongfugrasshopper,

I think the question is whether you are selecting the best or most qualified players when you look at the Olympics.  Is Amy really a better player than Xinyue?  Or is there an argument that selecting Amy gives us a better chance to win than selecting Xinyue?  And if so, how was that determined?

I think a distinction can be made between  ITTF events and events like the Olympics and other international Games. Or maybe not
 Let me know what you think.
Right, I was replying specifically to her selection for the Pan Am Champs where it has it's own criteria for discretionary selection.  I don't think either will make the Olympic team.  Assuming the USA gets 3 spots, it will be Jennifer Wu (highest WR) and Juan Liu/Lily Zhang (Singles Trial winner/Discretionary Selection ... take your pick).  

But just for fun, let's assume there are 4 spots for the Olympics.  Who gives us a better chance for winning is an interesting question.  Wang Xinyue may be the more complete player, but I think there are elements of Amy's game that makes her the better selection.  She's the best in the USA from what I've seen at hitting through spin.  She has good serve variation.  She's fearless which is absolutely critical in the Olympics (watch her match vs. FTW ... some of FTW's serves got crushed by Amy).  These things might not come out in world rankings or trial results and that's why I actually think there is a place for discretionary selection by a HPC even in Olympic selection.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 6:32pm
from what I have read, both Olympics and Pan-Am games have to follow the guidelines set forth by the USOC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aerial Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 10:17pm
lawsuits.. that's intense!

wonder if this will be newsworthy for media outlets a la television/newspapers

any press is good press right? 😅
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2019 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

pongfugrasshopper,

I think the question is whether you are selecting the best or most qualified players when you look at the Olympics.  Is Amy really a better player than Xinyue?  Or is there an argument that selecting Amy gives us a better chance to win than selecting Xinyue?  And if so, how was that determined?

I think a distinction can be made between  ITTF events and events like the Olympics and other international Games. Or maybe not
 Let me know what you think.
Right, I was replying specifically to her selection for the Pan Am Champs where it has it's own criteria for discretionary selection.  I don't think either will make the Olympic team.  Assuming the USA gets 3 spots, it will be Jennifer Wu (highest WR) and Juan Liu/Lily Zhang (Singles Trial winner/Discretionary Selection ... take your pick).  

But just for fun, let's assume there are 4 spots for the Olympics.  Who gives us a better chance for winning is an interesting question.  Wang Xinyue may be the more complete player, but I think there are elements of Amy's game that makes her the better selection.  She's the best in the USA from what I've seen at hitting through spin.  She has good serve variation.  She's fearless which is absolutely critical in the Olympics (watch her match vs. FTW ... some of FTW's serves got crushed by Amy).  These things might not come out in world rankings or trial results and that's why I actually think there is a place for discretionary selection by a HPC even in Olympic selection.  

The PanAm Games are part of the Olympic cycle (they may still be a qualifier but not sure).  So both need to be compatible with the USOC selection principles.  ITTF events like WTTC, World Cup and Panamerican Cup, not so much.

The question here is why disregard the results of the trials?  I understand your point that she is a good player but nothing you pointed out is a comparison to who she was selected over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 12:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

pongfugrasshopper,

I think the question is whether you are selecting the best or most qualified players when you look at the Olympics.  Is Amy really a better player than Xinyue?  Or is there an argument that selecting Amy gives us a better chance to win than selecting Xinyue?  And if so, how was that determined?

I think a distinction can be made between  ITTF events and events like the Olympics and other international Games. Or maybe not
 Let me know what you think.
Right, I was replying specifically to her selection for the Pan Am Champs where it has it's own criteria for discretionary selection.  I don't think either will make the Olympic team.  Assuming the USA gets 3 spots, it will be Jennifer Wu (highest WR) and Juan Liu/Lily Zhang (Singles Trial winner/Discretionary Selection ... take your pick).  

But just for fun, let's assume there are 4 spots for the Olympics.  Who gives us a better chance for winning is an interesting question.  Wang Xinyue may be the more complete player, but I think there are elements of Amy's game that makes her the better selection.  She's the best in the USA from what I've seen at hitting through spin.  She has good serve variation.  She's fearless which is absolutely critical in the Olympics (watch her match vs. FTW ... some of FTW's serves got crushed by Amy).  These things might not come out in world rankings or trial results and that's why I actually think there is a place for discretionary selection by a HPC even in Olympic selection.  

The PanAm Games are part of the Olympic cycle (they may still be a qualifier but not sure).  So both need to be compatible with the USOC selection principles.  ITTF events like WTTC, World Cup and Panamerican Cup, not so much.

The question here is why disregard the results of the trials?  I understand your point that she is a good player but nothing you pointed out is a comparison to who she was selected over.
The 2020 Olympic Games Athlete Selection Procedures for table tennis makes no mention of the Pan Am games as being part of the Olympic selection.  But the Pan Am Games are under the jurisdiction of the USOC.  And as stated in my first post, the USOC Athletes and Staff Procedures does allow for discretionary selection.  The 2019 Pan Am Games Athlete Selection Procedures for table tennis has a Discretionary Selection section as well which includes an item for international results so WTTC results are relevant.  I don't think the results of the trials were disregarded, but I think it was just one of the data points considered.   

With respect to a comparison of Amy over Wang Xinyue, I think the attributes I mentioned above are things that Amy does better.  And more importantly, they were very effective at the international level.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 1:01am
To add to my point about Amy’s game vs Wang Xinyue, here is a video of Wang Xinyue vs. an international player from Japan, Miyuki Tamaishi. WXY is a very solid player... she’s near 2500 after all. It’s not an issue of losing to her very good opponent, but contrast her serve variation and killer instinct, if you will, with Amy’s match with FTW:



Amy’s match with FTW:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2019 at 10:52am
Since the PanAm Games are under USOC, you have to assume their guidelines will apply which means (I think) USATT will have clearly state their evaluation methods and not "not in particular order" for their discretionary criteria 
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