Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

smackman wrote: blahness wrote: see how Zhang Jike practices with a MUCH lower ranked player, he purposely gives the ball to a really comfortable pace and speed to his opponent. (his normal warmup speed is about 5-10x the speed/frequency)  The mark of a great player is being able to play at whatever speed you want.  I don't think it would be 10x faster than that, it looks like a kinda standed warmup

Rack wrote: blahness wrote: Rack wrote: RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing.  OK, when u start learning, without any arm motion, so you just do the weight transfer first for a few weeks without hitting the ball? Coz when you hit the ball you have to risk learning wrong arm technique.    The way I usually explain it to people is to just hold your arm out in front of you in a 90 degree angle.  Once you weight shift to your leg and your waist rotates back, you arm doesn't even need to move yet... just let it follow your waist.  Then when you transfer weight and your waist rotates forward... let your arm follow again.  Thats the basic counterhitting stroke (small motion) that I would want them to learn before any arm movement comes into play which could make a bigger stroke.  Since the arm doesn't move... you don't bring in any bad arm swinging movements yet.  Then slowly you incorporate more legs and more waist if you want to hit a little harder then adding the "small arm" (forearm) acceleration movement without using much "big arm" (entire arm).  1 step at a time basically.   Swinging the arm first introduces alot of variables... for instance... some people can swing their arms with basically 0 waist/0 legs... then you would have to teach them legs/waist trying to incorporate it within their existing arm swing... gets really messy.   As for the overswinging... it sounds easy just to tell them that... but completely different when their head is already preprogrammed to want to do a hard flashy shot using all arm power which is the reason why you teach them leg/waist first to immediately dispel the "arm swinging = power" notion and reprogram them easily.  Many are too preprogrammed watching tennis thinking "arm swing!"

Edited by blahness - 12/22/2012 at 12:34am

 

Rack wrote: RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing.

RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing. 

Edited by Rack - 12/21/2012 at 11:50pm

Think "big muscle" when you loop, folks!  Those muscles are on your legs!  You can chickenwing your loop every time and still be as powerful as 2500-rated loopers, if you mostly loop with your legs!  

Edited by roundrobin - 12/21/2012 at 2:37pm

What is Chinese loop? Ma Long's loop is really different than ZJK and I can't tell which is better. ZJK brushes everything. ML goes straight through the ball and transfers most of the energy of the paddle to power, while ZJK has more spin. The body movement is quite different too. I don't think there is another TT player in the world who can fly around the table like ZJK, so you will never be always in position like he is, and will be hard to copy his shots.

blahness wrote: roundrobin wrote: tomtat92 wrote: Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?    You need to learn to loop with your biggest muscles first, which are on your legs.  Arm motion is secondary. I disagree, I learnt mine top to bottom, starting from the arm, then to the shoulder, then the waist, then to the legs. IMO you can't get the legs correct if you can't get the basic arm action right.

roundrobin wrote: tomtat92 wrote: Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?    You need to learn to loop with your biggest muscles first, which are on your legs.  Arm motion is secondary.

The pro´s is better because they are using there muscle in the optimal way. So why should i not be better if i can use my body in the same way as the Chinese players? All our bodies is looking almost the same, but the diffrens how we use them is huge, especially in table tennis. For example top runners, swimmers, cyclists are all using almost the same technique because they have find the best way of using the body to get the maximum out of the it. Why should it not be the same in table tennis? The chineses is dominating table tennis, and almost all of them is using their body in a similar way. Why should not the europeans look more on the chinese and try to understand their technique and see what benefits you earn from it? I dont think the chinese is better beause they train more, I think they are better because the have a more natural, effective bodymotion that allowe them to have quicker reflexes, faster footwork, and generally more spin, power and controll. Their knowledge about how the body works is the key to succes. Why should I not copy good technique from the best table tennisplayer, when runners is copying good technique from Usain Bolt? 

Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   

collins.latag wrote: cntcasey wrote: So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?   You would have balls flying everywhere for the first few weeks... but when you get adjusted, everything else falls in place... except the serve, i think!?

viktorovich wrote:  POWER7 : " In reality the basic mechanics are the same between the two FH loop strokes.  The Chinese just has more emphasis of the shoulder acting as the pivot for the swing.  Where Euro stroke emphasis is on the bending of the elbow."  Ma Long,Ma Lin,Zhang Jike,Xu Xin,... - do both : that and another.

 POWER7 : " In reality the basic mechanics are the same between the two FH loop strokes.  The Chinese just has more emphasis of the shoulder acting as the pivot for the swing.  Where Euro stroke emphasis is on the bending of the elbow."
 Ma Long,Ma Lin,Zhang Jike,Xu Xin,... - do both : that and another.

I think people mistaken their more straight arm, or more specifically, they contact the ball further away from their bodies as being a brush.  Since they don't realize in the Chinese FH you still have to generate forward momentum via arm swing and truck twist.

Edited by power7 - 06/04/2012 at 4:58pm