Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

FireHorse wrote: I like this discussion too. I'll throw in a question: Is Kong Linghui's forehand loop Chinese or European style? It looks to me it is Chinese but he was sponsored by Butterfly and using Tackifire, so Tackifire is the same as Chinese rubber?  I think probably is but I have to take a look. How about Zhang Yining and Guo Yue?  I think when they train, they will use a modified Chinese forehand strokes to fit with the European/Japanese type of rubbers? Thanks. FireHorse

not sure about KLH.  i believe iv tried tackifire (or was it tackiness chop?) but it wasnt tacky at all.  it just felt like any euro/jap rubber to me.  what a misleading name

Zhang Yining is euro style.  Guo Yue is straight up orthodox chinese style.  i dont really like watching women play but if i had to watch a woman play, it would be her.  she plays like a guy: attack attack attack.

zhang uses tenergy apparently back when she used to play. klh was a big bryce user back then too. his swing reminds me more of a korean swing than anything (think of oh sang eung)

ohhgourami wrote: FireHorse wrote: I like this discussion too. I'll throw in a question: Is Kong Linghui's forehand loop Chinese or European style? It looks to me it is Chinese but he was sponsored by Butterfly and using Tackifire, so Tackifire is the same as Chinese rubber?  I think probably is but I have to take a look. How about Zhang Yining and Guo Yue?  I think when they train, they will use a modified Chinese forehand strokes to fit with the European/Japanese type of rubbers? Thanks. FireHorse not sure about KLH.  i believe iv tried tackifire (or was it tackiness chop?) but it wasnt tacky at all.  it just felt like any euro/jap rubber to me.  what a misleading name Zhang Yining is euro style.  Guo Yue is straight up orthodox chinese style.  i dont really like watching women play but if i had to watch a woman play, it would be her.  she plays like a guy: attack attack attack.

So, it means Zhang Yining not using Chinese style and she dominated in women tournament.  Guo Yue with Chinese style were No. 2 and at one point No. 1.  So, they use the same type of rubbers (which I assume Euro/Japanese rubbers) but they have different strokes.

I think KLH is straight arm loop too, and with Tackifire made him become King Kong so I think it depends on how to play with it.

The main thing, IMHO, is that how you use the rubber to fit with your strokes.  And as Rack said, you need to know how to use the top sheet for brush stroke and how to use the sponge for power.  No style is better but I guess the Chinese style might prevent you from back injury but probably shoulder injury.

No matter what style you play, you probably need to warm-up first, relax while executing those strokes and get enough rest to heal those stresses.

FireHorse

Yep both Euro/Chinese strokes are good.  It just matters which one you prefer.  Like Fig said its just a choice that people make that fits them better.  In the end, both strokes can take you to become a great player.

ohhgourami wrote: not sure about KLH.  i believe iv tried tackifire (or was it tackiness chop?) but it wasnt tacky at all.  it just felt like any euro/jap rubber to me.  what a misleading name Zhang Yining is euro style.  Guo Yue is straight up orthodox chinese style.  i dont really like watching women play but if i had to watch a woman play, it would be her.  she plays like a guy: attack attack attack.

Wow, If you believe that Zhang Yining has a Euro style loop then you need to explain your stance........and you can't just say "its hard to explain" like you did in the other thread when talking about Chaun.  Are you basing this wholly on what type of equipment the players are using????  Please go into details of why you believe she does not have a chinese stroke

Also, do you believe that you cannot perform the chinese stroke with jap/euro rubbers?  what happens when you perform the chinese stroke with euro rubbers.  If this has been posted already please point me to the place where you stated it.

Lastly, what is your final definition of "the chinese stroke"?  First it was that the whole arm is used....now it seems like there is some kind of component of more forward movement?

Kong was more of a Hybrid.  He was trained in China then sent to Europe to train there to learn what was going on in Europe.  KLH was the 1.0 to Ma Long's current style which is the culmination of what they learned and combined of both Chinese/Euro training.  Heavy emphasis on speed and basics.

Rack wrote: ohhgourami wrote: Rack wrote: Yep both Euro/Chinese strokes are good.  It just matters which one you prefer.  Like Fig said its just a choice that people make that fits them better.  In the end, both strokes can take you to become a great player. BS.  You know deep down inside that the Chinese stroke is far superior   Not really,  Waldner.... nuff said.

waldner plays and wins because he plays with the mind. his technique isnt the best but he beats the best with his brain

To all: it's just what I've read and trained with, so take it with a grain of salt. Isn't it good that we have diverse schools of technique, otherwise TT wouldn't be so interesting. I'm a shakehander by the way. Sorry for such a long post, but this is getting really interesting and i'm on hols now... :D

For training:
I still train a lot with basic strokes(without minimal wrist action) as much as possible, but the really important thing to realise is that the wrist is held steady, but yet not stiff. That is because if you intentionally stiffen your wrist your arm would not be relaxed and you risk losing your muscle coordination and even injury. You do need to know how the wrist functions in a big loop, then make it compact to fit counterhits. and that's why people train basic strokes(counterhits) AND medium power loops at the same time. Both of them connect very tightly together. After much training, the wrist action should be natural and integrated into the stroke and not forced as ppl think. Also the wrist action shouldn't produce sidespin, it should produce pure topspin because the wrist goes from outwards to neutral, not neutral to inwards. That's unless you contact the ball on the side.

As to why an almost straight arm is desired, it's because there is extra acceleration obtained with the dramatic reduction in radius of movement(physicists help me) as the straight arm becomes compressed.

To APW: Do you really believe WLQ doesn't use his wrist? He's actually the master of it! His wrist action somehow "lags" behind his arm action, so most ppl don't notice it. Try getting a really high quality video of him close up and slow-mo it. You'll definitely notice the wrist going from "outwards" to neutral or even inwards.

About equipment: The "chinese" stroke can be used equally well with Euro equipment since it utilizes the sponge. However, tacky and slow rubbers increases the dwell time allowing much more control, and better spin as well.

About Waldner, I think he actually mastered both types of loops with the infamous sidespin loop the Euro type and the down to line loop a "Chinese" style loop(look at how his wrist goes from pointing backwards to pointing upwards!) But he wins because of his ridiculous short game control and brains. He still has the most "sudden" serve receive in the game.

+1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back.

They rated WLQ using a "education" level scale...

Rack wrote: +1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back.

I'm interested in this.  Would you please elaborate more about how he uses his finger?  You mean the index finger?  Thanks.

FireHorse

cntcasey wrote: Why would a person use a Chinese forehand?WHy would a person use a Euro Forehand?Is equipment the only reason why a person would have a Chinese forehand as to a Euro forehand?

Chinese or euro forehand? I saw Maze`s forehand and Ma`s forehand on this video. Forehand topspin is unique for each person, but only some base elements are common:
-forward and upward movement
-usage of all body from legs to wrist
-short swing near the table and wide swing far from the table

Rack wrote: +1 to Blahness... mirror's what my coaches say pretty much.  According to the National Team coaches, what sets WLQ's forehand apart from the others of the Nat team is his finger usage which they deemed him a "PH-D" on.  Was documented in the Chinese National Team powerpoint that was posted a while back. They rated WLQ using a "education" level scale...   Fingers - PH-D Wrist - Undergrad Forearm - Secondary School Arm - Elementary School   But ya really interesting discussion though.

Rack, I think you misunderstood this slide in Li Xiao Dong's presentation. It wasn't about Wang Liqin, it was about adjustment when brushing the ball to produce topspin. Li Xiao Dong was showing that learning how to adjust first starts at the arm. Once you have mastered adjustment with the arm then you learn how to adjust with the forearm, then with the wrist and finally with the fingers.

BMonkey wrote: I posted it up for everyone awhile back   http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271

I got it, thanks.  And Rack is right, it doesn't say much.

FireHorse

FireHorse wrote: BMonkey wrote: I posted it up for everyone awhile back   http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17271     I got it, thanks.  And Rack is right, it doesn't say much. FireHorse

It says alot of things, but indirectly. In conjunction with the other posts in the thread it says even more. You just have to think about the slides because the transcript of his lecture isn't there. For example: when he talks about "tight connecting" on page 30 and gives a breakdown of connecting, these are good pointers for the types of drills you should be working on to improve your ability connect shots together.

I honestly think that the perspective that players/members of this forum look at this, is directly associated to their level of play, I'm saying no more on this, other than that there are many levels of standards between WLC etc, and the players/members of this forum post their views accordingly, my personal view, as a coach that specialises in improving the standard of players who are not potential internationals, are not ever going to reach the heights of International play, do not practice full time, are not sponsored, Are not a part of an international program for producing top players, do not have the time, money or inclination to play at the top level, Are well above the age at which any of the above is realistically possible, but just wish to be a little better in their play, Leave this stuff alone, be honest about your realistic expectations, don't try to copy WLC's F/hand drive, develop your own, personal to you, copy the best player in your club, its a realistic goal that you can achieve, trying to emulate the best players in the world is just not a realistic propasition, there are for the most of us, players who are the stars of our regions/ countries who are full time proffesional players, yet they cannot get anywhere near the level of the best players in the world, do you not think that they might have possibly been advised by their national full time experienced coaches on the benefits, realisations and probabilities of success that they can apparently easily achieve by copying WLC and the rest of the current Chinese national team? So why does anyone on this forum think that the advice given by blahness is going to make any difference to their game? we in England send our best players to China for long periods, they do not ever come back having a WLC forhand, why does anyone think that they can employ these methods better than them? that is why I was quite precise in my response with the word 'Bullsh*t' and I whole heartedly stick by it.  When it comes to coaching, In am seriously a massive critic, there is an obvious culture within the USA of Chinese coaches being resident in clubs of a given locality. For the most part, the techniques and stratergies of these coaches is well above what the players they coach are capable of, they are there for money and money alone, and are not capable of coaching anything other than international play, which flies well above the capabilities of most of their students. So what i'm saying guys is that if you wish to get that edge, that extra bump up the ratings next year, you would be far better off following Brian Pace than a top Chinese coach. If however you are ranked 120 in the world, go for the Chinese guy every time