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chiquita is still the best

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    Posted: 01/28/2021 at 6:23pm
After much experimentation, I now realise why the chiquita is still supreme, and the first choice for pros these days.

1) it's really easy to transition between chiquita and the full BH loop so there's no hesitation when faced with serves of different lengths.

2) you can pretty much guarantee that the return is topspin so you can simply keep attacking.

3) varying placement and spin (esp the degree of sidespin/topspin ratio) is really easy

4) the heavy spin that it produces is not so easy to deal with, and offers a lot of stability in the stroke

5) it's fast and high quality - often winning points directly

Strawberry, pushflicks, short pushes are more useful against the very heavy underspin serves which you can't really chiquita. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 9:09am
Hi,

The first year the Chinese National Team visited the Werner Schlager Academy to prepare for the World Championships, it was clear the emphasis on the Men's team of developing the Chiquita.  However, not on the Women's team.

In the following year's visit, the emphasis had changed to responding to the Chiquita for the Men's team, of which the men had reached an almost impeccable response to.  There remained no Chiquita presence of any significance on the Women's team.

For the professional player, the investment requirements for the Chiquita's development are worthwhile.  For all others, it is rare to find a circumstance that justifies the necessary investment to attain proficiency.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 11:21am
Listening to a podcast with Richard Prause where he spoke on this subject he seemed to say that this shot slightly became a victim of its own success at the top level since serving strategies adapted to deal with players who relied on an aggressive banana flick. The increase in long serves is probably the most obvious part of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lgxb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 12:40pm
for point 2, you can't that -- what if the other is playing long pip on BH? or if it's a penholder side chop to return?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

The first year the Chinese National Team visited the Werner Schlager Academy to prepare for the World Championships, it was clear the emphasis on the Men's team of developing the Chiquita.  However, not on the Women's team.

In the following year's visit, the emphasis had changed to responding to the Chiquita for the Men's team, of which the men had reached an almost impeccable response to.  There remained no Chiquita presence of any significance on the Women's team.

For the professional player, the investment requirements for the Chiquita's development are worthwhile.  For all others, it is rare to find a circumstance that justifies the necessary investment to attain proficiency.

Thanks.

Hard to argue against famous peeps, but that has never stopped me before. A lot of TT players spend a whole lot of wasted time at the club (well we used to..). I think the Chiquita is such an artistic and difficult stroke that when I see a player that can do one well I am impressed. I think it is worthwhile for that aspect alone.

The downside to this shot for amateur levels is that if you have weak spin that your opponent can blast it to smithereens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 3:08pm
Chiquita combined with pushflick is the next generation. More speed less spin . It doesn’t require you wrist power like before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chiquita combined with pushflick is the next generation. More speed less spin . It doesn’t require you wrist power like before.

Please remind me.  What exactly is a pushflick?

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 3:29pm
For example: backhand again backspin: open you racket towards the coming ball, push forward and flip the racket same time. The direction of your power start from going up to going forward and going down.  My poor English.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 3:40pm
 https://youtu.be/ZKm3Waj3Z7I

Hope this helps. New Chiquita!
Zhang yining said this when talking to the commentator during one match: felmale player doesn’t have enough wrist power to generate a long arc brushing the ball. So at that time, Chiquita was not popular in women team. The new style solves this problem.


Edited by Robin.w - 01/29/2021 at 4:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Listening to a podcast with Richard Prause where he spoke on this subject he seemed to say that this shot slightly became a victim of its own success at the top level since serving strategies adapted to deal with players who relied on an aggressive banana flick. The increase in long serves is probably the most obvious part of this.

The long serves only really bother players who try to use the chiquita on the FH side which I think is definitely only a pro manoeuvre, if you don't it's pretty easy to adjust between long and short serves on the BH side. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by lgxb lgxb wrote:

for point 2, you can't that -- what if the other is playing long pip on BH? or if it's a penholder side chop to return?Wink

Lol that is an exception and I usually like to place it to the middle against penholders like that coz the sidechop against chiquita can be quite disgusting to deal with...


Edited by blahness - 01/29/2021 at 4:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

 https://youtu.be/ZKm3Waj3Z7I

Hope this helps. New Chiquita!
Zhang yining said this when talking to the commentator during one match: felmale player doesn’t have enough wrist power to generate a long arc brushing the ball. So at that time, Chiquita was not popular in women team. The new style solves this problem.

I think the principles are good - you need to lift the ball and then close the racket at the end against backspin. I do the same thing. You can't brute force brush against heavy underspin serves in general. I do something similar too, using the open blade angle to help me out with the backspin. And yes it requires much less wrist power because you're no longer brute forcing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

The first year the Chinese National Team visited the Werner Schlager Academy to prepare for the World Championships, it was clear the emphasis on the Men's team of developing the Chiquita.  However, not on the Women's team.

In the following year's visit, the emphasis had changed to responding to the Chiquita for the Men's team, of which the men had reached an almost impeccable response to.  There remained no Chiquita presence of any significance on the Women's team.

For the professional player, the investment requirements for the Chiquita's development are worthwhile.  For all others, it is rare to find a circumstance that justifies the necessary investment to attain proficiency.

Thanks.

Hard to argue against famous peeps, but that has never stopped me before. A lot of TT players spend a whole lot of wasted time at the club (well we used to..). I think the Chiquita is such an artistic and difficult stroke that when I see a player that can do one well I am impressed. I think it is worthwhile for that aspect alone.

The downside to this shot for amateur levels is that if you have weak spin that your opponent can blast it to smithereens.

Good observations.  Another key point is the extraordinary demands of movement to perform with consistently and frequently.  Watch the god-like Fan; he moves so quickly and so accurately!  To attain this ball-to-body relationship in play dynamics is a product of coaching participation and standards of time and effort only the Chinese consistently meet.  This is evident when watching the outstanding Europeans; the presence of the Chiquita with them does not approach that of the slave-training outcomes of the Chinese.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 7:03pm
Maybe slave training plays a part but to my understanding, the most important part is understanding or philosophy . European players take the ball far later than Chinese players even Japanese, no matter what technique. Timo and Dima are earlier than others but their forehand side is not as early as backhand side. The one and the greatest player, J.O waldner can compete with all Chinese players regarding this, even in the “fast attack close to the table” era..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Maybe slave training plays a part but to my understanding, the most important part is understanding or philosophy . European players take the ball far later than Chinese players even Japanese, no matter what technique. Timo and Dima are earlier than others but their forehand side is not as early as backhand side. The one and the greatest player, J.O waldner can compete with all Chinese players regarding this, even in the “fast attack close to the table” era..

Those are the old European players, the young ones like Anton Kallberg take the ball really early just like Wang Chuqin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2021 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

The first year the Chinese National Team visited the Werner Schlager Academy to prepare for the World Championships, it was clear the emphasis on the Men's team of developing the Chiquita.  However, not on the Women's team.

In the following year's visit, the emphasis had changed to responding to the Chiquita for the Men's team, of which the men had reached an almost impeccable response to.  There remained no Chiquita presence of any significance on the Women's team.

For the professional player, the investment requirements for the Chiquita's development are worthwhile.  For all others, it is rare to find a circumstance that justifies the necessary investment to attain proficiency.

Thanks.

Hard to argue against famous peeps, but that has never stopped me before. A lot of TT players spend a whole lot of wasted time at the club (well we used to..). I think the Chiquita is such an artistic and difficult stroke that when I see a player that can do one well I am impressed. I think it is worthwhile for that aspect alone.

The downside to this shot for amateur levels is that if you have weak spin that your opponent can blast it to smithereens.
I think in my circle now chiquita is kinda common, almost everyone is doing it in their own unique way. There's even a devastating RPB long pip chiquita which the best player in my circle uses to extremely great effect. I haven't really seen people blast them back because it usually has heavy spin and smashing heavy spin balls is a recipe for unforced errors. Most common response is a quick counter which is not easy to deal with either.  
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