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Controversial finish to Austrian Bundesliga Season

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    Posted: 05/28/2019 at 8:35am

Watch the final set, you're in for an absolute shocker!Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote henningf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 9:25am
Absolutly horrible serving from both of them. Hiding with body, slow to remove hand etc. Add the stopping and complaining.... all in all.... a horrible match....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 11:42am
insane. everything you never want in a match and more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 12:33pm
Although lots of the player in black serves could have been called as faults, I thought the umpires did a pretty good job of only calling the one's that were especially bad.  Even I could see that when they called the faults the hand stayed up much longer and/or the toss was farther back behind the shoulder.

What actually happened on the apparent match winning point that caused the umpire to change the awarding of the point?  He did originally signal point to player in black, but when player in red pointed to player in blacks side he changed his signal of who won point.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 12:56pm
wow, that's a crazy finish.  Definitely an unsportsmanlike conduct.  But resulting in a lost point, I don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:


What actually happened on the apparent match winning point that caused the umpire to change the awarding of the point?  He did originally signal point to player in black, but when player in red pointed to player in blacks side he changed his signal of who won point.

Mark

That bit is really bizarre. I just watched it back at 0.25 speed and all I can see if the umpire awarding the match point, looking to his right and then changing his mind and warding the point the opposite player. Don't think his decision was linked to the player jumping on the table. As far as I know, what a player does after the match point has been awarded can't result in the match point being overturned. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 1:06pm
that asshat clown deserves it.  Per ITTF Referee handbook

17.2 Warning

  1. 17.2.1  Unless the incident is so seriously unfair or objectionable that formal action cannot be avoided, a quiet informal word of warning or even a warning signal should be sufficient to make the offender aware that such behaviour is unacceptable. Wherever possible, this should be done without interrupting play, taking advantage of the next natural break such as the end of the rally or the end of the game.

  2. 17.2.2  When, however, the umpire believes that an opponent may have been adversely affected or that the behaviour is likely to offend spectators or otherwise to be detrimental to the sport he or she should immediately declare a let and formally warn the offender, by holding up a yellow card, that further misbehaviour will incur penalties.

  3. 17.2.3  When a formal warning has been given, a yellow marker should be placed near the score indicator, next to the score of the player who has been warned. Similarly if a player has had a penalty point awarded against him or her, both a yellow and red marker should be placed near the score indicator, if space permits. If both the umpire and assistant umpire are using score indicators then the cards should only be placed onthe assistant umpire’s indicator. These warnings apply for the remainder of the individual match or, in a team event, the remainder of the team match, and subsequent offences will incur penalty points.

  4. 17.2.4  It should be remembered that, once a formal warning has been given, subsequent offences must automatically be penalised by the award of points. The umpire should not be afraid to use this procedure when it is justified, but if a formal warning is given too readily he or she may find that he or she has to penalise a player at a critical stage of a match for an offence that, to many people, may appear trivial.

17.3 Penalties

  1. 17.3.1  If a player who has been formally warned commits a further offence in the same match the umpire should award 1 penalty point to his or her opponent and for a third offence he or she should award 2 points, each time holding up a yellow and a red card together to show the action he or she has taken. Should misbehaviour continue after the umpire has imposed these penalties he or she should suspend play immediately and report to the referee.

  2. 17.3.2  When the umpire awards a penalty point the referee should be advised as soon as practicable, but without delaying play, to enable the referee, if he or she wishes, to come to the playing area so that he or she will be readily available in case of any further trouble. If the referee or his or her deputy is not in a position to see the display of cards it may be possible to use another pre-arranged signal or to send a messenger.

  3. 17.3.3  Penalty points may sometimes be awarded after a game has ended, or 2 penalty points might be awarded against a player when his or her opponent needs only 1 point to winthe game. If the match has not ended any “unused” points are transferred to the nextgame of that individual match, so that it starts at the score of 0-1 or 0-2 in favour ofthe offender’s opponent, but if the match has ended they should be ignored. In this case the server is the one who should have been serving at that score according to the sequence established at the beginning of the match.

  4. 17.3.4  In a team match, warnings and penalties are carried over to subsequent individualPage 22

matches. A doubles pair is regarded as having incurred the higher of any warnings or penalties incurred by either of the players; thus if one has been warned in a previous match and the other had incurred 1 penalty point, a first offence by either of them in the doubles match would incur 2 penalty points. A warning or penalty during a doubles match applies to the pair during that match, but only the offending player will carry it over to a subsequent individual match. The following example illustrates this point:

In a team match with 4 singles and 1 doubles matches, players A & B are paired to play the doubles match. In their first singles matches in this team match, A was warned and B incurred a penalty point. In the 2nd game of the doubles match A intentionally breaks the ball by stepping on it. The umpire awards 2 penalty points against A/B. In their next singles matches, each player carries forward 1 penalty point.

  1. 17.3.5  In a team match it is necessary to record warnings and penalties so that they can be transferred to later matches, but it is advisable to do so also in individual events. This will allow the referee to take account of persistent bad behaviour when deciding, for example, whether to disqualify a player. The record can conveniently be a note on the scoresheet, stating who was warned or penalised and at what stage of the match, witha brief description of the offence. This recording of warnings should also be applied to coaches for similar reasons.

  2. 17.3.6  It is clearly impracticable to award penalty points against a coach, and it would be unfair to award them against a player on whose behalf he or she may be protesting. If after a formal warning a coach continues to misbehave he or she should be shown a red card and sent away from the playing area until the end of the match or, in a team event, of the team match; where this action is taken the incident should be reported to the referee.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FruitLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 1:46pm
Didn't Ma Long do the same? Don't remember people complaining.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 3:00pm
Do we know for a fact that the umpire reverted his decision because the player jumped on the table after the match was over? If that's the case, I do not see how the decision can be justified. This is "le fait du prince" in all its splendor, throw that umpire in the same basket than the one where rots the Italian lady who abused Ding Ning in London.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 3:01pm
double post sorry (time out pbs)

Edited by stiltt - 05/28/2019 at 3:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 3:29pm
The video poster, TT11TV,  submitted this Youtube comment:


TT11TV

"Unfortunately this ended with a disqualification of David Serdaroglu. After his service was cancelled for the alleged 11:9 in the decisive fifth set due to a service error, he was shown the red card because of referee criticism. "

"Dieser endete leider mit einer Disqualifikation von David Serdaroglu. Nachdem sein Service zum vermeintlichen 11:9 im entscheidenden fünften Satz aufgrund eines Servicefehler aberkannt wurde, wurde ihm wegen Schiedsrichterkritik die rote Karte gezeigt. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 3:35pm
Looks like the umpire looks to his right to someone off camera and then asks the assistant umpire a question.  The assistant umpire holds out his arms palm up and shrugged his shoulders in a "I do not know" gesture".  The umpire looks back to his right again as if questioning someone and then changes the point award.  As the player is arguing the apparent referee walks into camera frame from the right and the umpire points at him as he is arguing with the player.

Is it possible that because of the previous serving complaints the referee was positioned behind the sever (off camera) to watch and help with hidden service calls?
And he was the one who was responsible for changing the point award. 

A little later I saw the apparent referee give a red card to a coach (or player) who came up to argue the change of point award. You can see that player making the point award hand gesture as he is talking to the referee.

I remember some talk about using a third official to help with hidden serve calls.  Would this be something a referee could do under current league rules?  If he did make an override call, it would explain a lot.

Mark 


Edited by mjamja - 05/28/2019 at 3:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nightsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Looks like the umpire looks to his right to someone off camera and then asks the assistant umpire a question.  The assistant umpire holds out his arms palm up and shrugged his shoulders in a "I do not know" gesture".  The umpire looks back to his right again as if questioning someone and then changes the point award.  As the player is arguing the apparent referee walks into camera frame from the right and the umpire points at him as he is arguing with the player.

Is it possible that because of the previous serving complaints the referee was positioned behind the sever (off camera) to watch and help with hidden service calls?
And he was the one who was responsible for changing the point award. 

A little later I saw the apparent referee give a red card to a coach (or player) who came up to argue the change of point award. You can see that player making the point award hand gesture as he is talking to the referee.

I remember some talk about using a third official to help with hidden serve calls.  Would this be something a referee could do under current league rules?  If he did make an override call, it would explain a lot.

Mark 


That someone was actually Chen Weixing, one of the best defenders of the last 20 years. Not quite the level of JSH, but still pretty good.
Anyway, that topic is also being discussed over at TTD. Someone watched the entire match and made an interesting summary and sound conclusions...
Comment No. 20 (ttopy)

Generally, I think,  you are right, Mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 4:41pm
Can someone give me some context on the last point? What happen? Why the red is pointing to "something" at the back? What is red complaining? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 4:55pm
ttopy over at TTD counted and apparently black was faulted 8 (!) times for his serve during the match. 

Seems that there was a more senior umpire stationed behind the server, hence why the point was overturned. 

Reckon this video will go viral, which is kind of a shame for table tennis...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote henningf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2019 at 5:25pm
The guy in black should watch this: https://youtu.be/RIcmLLL5FLI maybe he could learn some even worse illegal serves...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 5:42am
A difficult match to umpire.
High pressured, I am sure.
Despite being penalised points, the blue player had continued with his hidden serves right up to the last point played during fifth game with score 10 : 9 in his favour.
He then served and the red shirt player was not able to return the serve and the umpire had also accorded the point and match to the blue shirt.
Unfortunately for him, his opponent was already appealing to the referee who then overruled the umpire.
At this point, as I understand it, the score would have been 10 : 10.
When the commotion erupted and did not end, the referee then instructed the umpire to penalise the blue shirt player with a yellow/red card warning.........which was how the score ended....at 10 : 11 in favour of the red shirt player.
Had the blue shirt player accepted the decisions of the referee, he would then be serving at 10 : 11.
Alas, things did not turn out according to the script when the referee showed the blue player the red card.
Worth noting that the red shirt player had repeatedly complained about his opponent's serves and even at the very end, he had immediately pointed to where the referee must have been standing; ie behind the blue shirt watching his serve. Was it the referee calling for a stop or halt at that point ?
Definitely, a difficult match to umpire with the emos flying.
My conclusion : there was no controversy. Do not really understand the reason for the referee to red card the blue played at that point. could have cooled down the temperature in the room but that was his decision. And never celebrate too early...... before the win was declared.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 7:57am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

A difficult match to umpire.
High pressured, I am sure.
Despite being penalised points, the blue player had continued with his hidden serves right up to the last point played during fifth game with score 10 : 9 in his favour.
He then served and the red shirt player was not able to return the serve and the umpire had also accorded the point and match to the blue shirt.
Unfortunately for him, his opponent was already appealing to the referee who then overruled the umpire.
At this point, as I understand it, the score would have been 10 : 10.
When the commotion erupted and did not end, the referee then instructed the umpire to penalise the blue shirt player with a yellow/red card warning.........which was how the score ended....at 10 : 11 in favour of the red shirt player.
Had the blue shirt player accepted the decisions of the referee, he would then be serving at 10 : 11.
Alas, things did not turn out according to the script when the referee showed the blue player the red card.
Worth noting that the red shirt player had repeatedly complained about his opponent's serves and even at the very end, he had immediately pointed to where the referee must have been standing; ie behind the blue shirt watching his serve. Was it the referee calling for a stop or halt at that point ?
Definitely, a difficult match to umpire with the emos flying.
My conclusion : there was no controversy. Do not really understand the reason for the referee to red card the blue played at that point. could have cooled down the temperature in the room but that was his decision. And never celebrate too early...... before the win was declared.


Good discussion. 

I would add that in addition to not celebrate too early, do not ever celebrate like that. Ever. It demeans ones self and is the behavior of a 2 year old. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 8:56am
With the blue player's repeated service infractions, the umpire was entirely justified in penalising him at 10:9 - either for a service fault or because his behaviour was "detrimental to the sport" (see 2.17.2.2 referenced above).  What impresses me is the umpire's willingness to stick to his guns, regardless of the stage of the match.  Calling illegal serves is never trivial, but the umpires (both of them) worked hard to remain impartial and fair.  The failure of the blue player to modify his serve is not the umpire's concern.  If more umpire's did their job as these ones did then the game would be in a much better place than it currently is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 12:58pm
Stockerau (the blue team) has filed a protest against the decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:

With the blue player's repeated service infractions, the umpire was entirely justified in penalising him at 10:9 - either for a service fault or because his behaviour was "detrimental to the sport" (see 2.17.2.2 referenced above).  What impresses me is the umpire's willingness to stick to his guns, regardless of the stage of the match.  Calling illegal serves is never trivial, but the umpires (both of them) worked hard to remain impartial and fair.  The failure of the blue player to modify his serve is not the umpire's concern.  If more umpire's did their job as these ones did then the game would be in a much better place than it currently is.

You might be confusing some people here.
There were 3 officials involved.
The Umpire, was seated on the high stool, and the assistant umpire who controlled the scoreboard. They  were both in the court.
The 3rd was the referee who was outside the court and issued the red card at the end.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Reckon this video will go viral, which is kind of a shame for table tennis...

Almost 2000 views already, the whole world is talking about it Wink

BTW, the controversy begins at 8-8 in game 2. Player in red complains about his opponent's services. The referee seems to be already watching from outside the box. The next point the referee intervenes to fault a service which was actually a let, and the umpire awards the point to the player in red. Was that a proper decision for a let serve? 
[EDIT: yes, I suppose it was; as soon as something about the service is illegal, it doesn't matter whether the ball touches the net or not]



Edited by amateur - 05/29/2019 at 1:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 4:49pm
Blue shirt was way too argumentative right from the second game. He continued arguing later on, which is enough to get yellow carded. In my view the referee was way too lenient. The red card could have come up much sooner. That kind of behavior is unacceptable.

Ma Long did not get the benefit of a warning in his game against Pitchford, which he lost later on. And as far as that bitch who took points from Ding Ning during her previous Olimpic game, well, she was just a bitch.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Reckon this video will go viral, which is kind of a shame for table tennis...

Almost 2000 views already, the whole world is talking about it Wink


More than 10k on the video of just the final point. Trust me, I know what the man on the street likes to watch and this is it. It will go viral.Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Reckon this video will go viral, which is kind of a shame for table tennis...

Almost 2000 views already, the whole world is talking about it Wink


More than 10k on the video of just the final point. Trust me, I know what the man on the street likes to watch and this is it. It will go viral.Tongue


It actually would be beneficial to the sport to see a little bit of fire and flair. It's not a shame. Meek reactions don't really go too far in terms of getting attention.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 7:20pm
Great last serve
I found it strange that the assistant umpire called many of the faults when the left-hander had his back to him, even when the official umpire saw nothing wrong and awarded a point but then was overruled by the assistant
and the referee was behind the server so what could he see
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2019 at 11:32pm
Two consecutive serves both at point of contact, the first at 8-10 not called, the second at 9-10 called illegal.  Notice any differences?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/02/2019 at 6:40pm
the lefty in blue has similar service to par gerell.
just as tabletennisdaily introduced their videos "par gerell serving master class" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/07/2019 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by amateur amateur wrote:

Stockerau (the blue team) has filed a protest against the decision.


The protest was dismissed and the result stands. Stockerau can still file an appeal against this decision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/08/2019 at 12:46am
 'The protest was dismissed and the result stands. Stockerau can still file an appeal against this decision.' - amatuer.

Would you know to which authority he appealed to and what he appealed against, what were the grounds of his appeal. Thanks     
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