Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Dangers of waist rotation
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Dangers of waist rotation

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 1:30am
Originally posted by shaks shaks wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Doing some shadow training here, and I really felt a difference in the lumbar area. If I brace the core and only twist more at the mid/upper back (technical jargon be damned), I noticed a lot less torquing on the lower spine, naturally. It seems like it would take a lot of mental concentration at this point to do so every point during a game but perhaps would result in less damage to the body... interesting point I'll have to toy with here. 

Despite the disdain for technical jargon, I think you've got it (disabling waist/lumbar rotation and replacing it with the healthier thoracic rotation)!  LOL

I feel like with all habits, it's gonna take some time before it sinks into our subconscious which we can then integrate into our game. But, we've only got one body to work with, and for me at least the pain of having to retrain my technique definitely would be less than chronic lower back pain later on in life!
Thoracic rotation will surely cause rib problems.

Oh I've no doubt something will have to give... doesnt matter what technique you use, but probably depends on your body and which area is strongest for each person 
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 1:39am
Guys... I know that everyone here (including myself!) have trained for so many years under the old coaching mantra which emphasizes waist rotation, but at least keep an open mind to the facts presented! Chronic lower back pain is something you definitely do not want to have, ever!

Our situation is not as bad because we have viable alternatives such as thoracic rotation. The NRL has finally had to face the overwhelming evidence that rugby players are prone to highly damaging concussions, and I'm not sure what has changed in the sport since then. I hope with the table tennis community we do not bury our head into the sand and ignore this issue just because "it's the way we have always done it"! Our collective lower back health as a community is far too important an issue to ignore...


Edited by blahness - 03/21/2019 at 1:42am
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 2:44am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Guys... I know that everyone here (including myself!) have trained for so many years under the old coaching mantra which emphasizes waist rotation, but at least keep an open mind to the facts presented! Chronic lower back pain is something you definitely do not want to have, ever!

Our situation is not as bad because we have viable alternatives such as thoracic rotation. The NRL has finally had to face the overwhelming evidence that rugby players are prone to highly damaging concussions, and I'm not sure what has changed in the sport since then. I hope with the table tennis community we do not bury our head into the sand and ignore this issue just because "it's the way we have always done it"! Our collective lower back health as a community is far too important an issue to ignore...

Not sure anyone is saying that... only that if you start rotating at the thoracic spine, then it will suffer as a result. Just because you cease lumbar movement and stop lower back pain, doesn't mean that another type of injury won't crop up from using the thoracic 
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 3:11am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Guys... I know that everyone here (including myself!) have trained for so many years under the old coaching mantra which emphasizes waist rotation, but at least keep an open mind to the facts presented! Chronic lower back pain is something you definitely do not want to have, ever!

Our situation is not as bad because we have viable alternatives such as thoracic rotation. The NRL has finally had to face the overwhelming evidence that rugby players are prone to highly damaging concussions, and I'm not sure what has changed in the sport since then. I hope with the table tennis community we do not bury our head into the sand and ignore this issue just because "it's the way we have always done it"! Our collective lower back health as a community is far too important an issue to ignore...

Not sure anyone is saying that... only that if you start rotating at the thoracic spine, then it will suffer as a result. Just because you cease lumbar movement and stop lower back pain, doesn't mean that another type of injury won't crop up from using the thoracic 

The only problem with that argument is that the thoracic spine has a completely different structure compared to the lumbar spine which allows it to rotate sustainably unlike the lumbar region. If people have watched the video or read the articles they would understand. 


Edited by blahness - 03/21/2019 at 4:43am
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 7:20am
Thoracic rotation at its best LOLLOLLOL




-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
serr View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/10/2018
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 8:27am
So which one do you recommend blahness? Rotating hips while stiffening upper body or rotating rib cage while stiffening waist and hips? I've been having a little bit of lower back pain lately. Confused

Edited by serr - 03/21/2019 at 8:28am
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 8:55am
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

So which one do you recommend blahness? Rotating hips while stiffening upper body or rotating rib cage while stiffening waist and hips? I've been having a little bit of lower back pain lately. Confused

Hi serr, thanks for the post! Firstly I would advise you to take some rest and  stop TT if you have lower back pain! But to learn the technique, firstly you need to know how to brace your core effectively (those who had strength training experience will know, otherwise there's quite a lot of resources on youtube or google), once you brace your core, your waist is gonna be like a hard rock. Without the core bracing everything else will fall apart! Once you start bracing your core, you will disable the harmful waist rotation. Then, with that as a foundation you can rotate your chest and your shoulders without rotating your waist. Combine that with leg driven hip rotation, and you have the stroke down. 

To answer your question more directly, your hips, waist and chest are three different areas. You rotate at the hips, stiffen your waist (brace your core), and rotate more at the chest. 

If you do it correctly you're gonna feel like Mike Tyson delivering his signature hook punch...



Edited by blahness - 03/21/2019 at 9:03am
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
serr View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/10/2018
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 9:27am
Thanks for your advice, it's really helpful. Unfortunately I can't stop with playing tt as I'm too addictedLOL. Bracing the core while rotating both hips and chest sounds difficult. I'll try this technique on the robot in my club today and see how it goes.
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 11:54am
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

Thanks for your advice, it's really helpful. Unfortunately I can't stop with playing tt as I'm too addictedLOL. Bracing the core while rotating both hips and chest sounds difficult. I'll try this technique on the robot in my club today and see how it goes.

Speaking on deaf ears no doubt, but resting for a few days or even a week is much shorter than recovering from an injury... 

Take it from some idiot who disregarded that advice too many times! 
Back to Top
serr View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 09/10/2018
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 3:17pm
I've never had any serious injuries and I'm not that old so I think a weekend off will do wellTongue
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1227
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 4:14pm
For those who have lower back discomfort, have you eliminated other possible causes like foot problems (flat foot, pronated/supinated foot, etc.); knee problems; tight hamstrings; hip misalignment, scoliosis, or any other congenital or acquired musculoskeletal defects/deformity? I didn't know I had scoliosis in my lumbar region until an incidental x-ray in my 30s.

Along with advocating waist rotation, the Chinese also emphasized core stability and contraction, which is required to transfer power from the hips to the upper torso. In other words, it's not like players weren't tightening their cores before.

Vertebrae sure gets smaller and more delicate if you will, further up the back. Thoracic rotation requires engaging and tightening more upper back muscle. I'm not sure shifting rotation upwards is a better alternative.

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.

Avoid the scenario of a fully opened stance: you're square to the table, with feet apart, toes aligned, and hips also square to the table, and you keep your feet planted while rotating your shoulders back to take the paddle back.

Just minimize winding up your spine like wringing a towel. Contract your core to keep the hips and shoulders aligned as much as possible.


Back to Top
Tt Gold View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/22/2014
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1198
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 4:23pm
I am strictly against rotating at the waist especially when the upper body isn't straight. Flexion and rotation is always suicide for the spine. One of the best players in my club (2450+) told me to use more rotation at the waist a few years ago (at least that's what I think he meant). I tried it, but it felt weird, so I didn't do it. Even recently someone said I could rotate my shoulder more. The problem is that I'd have to rotate at the waist again. It's just something that my brain automatically blocks, since it knows that it is unhealthy. I think even before doing actual research on it, I kind of knew that it was unhealthy. It just didn't feel right. The best way to use body rotation is by just using the hips. So my tip to anyone that wants to use rotation, or is trying to get rid of waist rotation, is to just focus on the hip movement when playing. Doing a bit of "shadowing" only at the hips without anything else related to a table tennis stroke will help.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

For those who have lower back discomfort, have you eliminated other possible causes like foot problems (flat foot, pronated/supinated foot, etc.); knee problems; tight hamstrings; hip misalignment, scoliosis, or any other congenital or acquired musculoskeletal defects/deformity? I didn't know I had scoliosis in my lumbar region until an incidental x-ray in my 30s.

Along with advocating waist rotation, the Chinese also emphasized core stability and contraction, which is required to transfer power from the hips to the upper torso. In other words, it's not like players weren't tightening their cores before.

Vertebrae sure gets smaller and more delicate if you will, further up the back. Thoracic rotation requires engaging and tightening more upper back muscle. I'm not sure shifting rotation upwards is a better alternative.

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.

Avoid the scenario of a fully opened stance: you're square to the table, with feet apart, toes aligned, and hips also square to the table, and you keep your feet planted while rotating your shoulders back to take the paddle back.

Just minimize winding up your spine like wringing a towel. Contract your core to keep the hips and shoulders aligned as much as possible.



+1, a free hip rotation (through freeing the legs) and core bracing is the basics here, but waist rotation is proven to be bad regardless of how you do it, the injury statistics and medical articles don't lie... It's time to admit that the Chinese coaching literature has been wrong for decades!

The consensus in the medical community seems to be that thoracic rotation is safe. For e.g boxing uses extensive use of thoracic rotation and they hit with much more violent acceleration than any TT player, I haven't heard of them getting rib or upper back injuries due to this overuse of thoracic rotation (happy to be  proven wrong but so far this seems to be the case). Thoracic rotation also helps take up some load which will reduce the demands on the hips, which i believe to be safer. Also, thoracic rotation has a lot of range of motion, which makes the strokes a lot more speedy and powerful compared to just relying on hip rotation. From what I experience, activating thoracic rotation is also a great cue to brace your core, because you can't do thoracic rotation without core bracing (the lumbar will always rotate first if you don't brace it). 

So far Harimoto is the only one using thoracic rotation on the circuit, it seems to be his best kept secret indeed! He and his parents are geniuses for having made this decision long time ago, which is why I believe Harimoto has a technique advantage over the CNT which is stuck in waist rotation land (and just realising that it is harmful). I'm not sure if they have shared the knowledge with other Japanese team members since they don't seem to be using it....
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I am strictly against rotating at the waist especially when the upper body isn't straight. Flexion and rotation is always suicide for the spine. One of the best players in my club (2450+) told me to use more rotation at the waist a few years ago (at least that's what I think he meant). I tried it, but it felt weird, so I didn't do it. Even recently someone said I could rotate my shoulder more. The problem is that I'd have to rotate at the waist again. It's just something that my brain automatically blocks, since it knows that it is unhealthy. I think even before doing actual research on it, I kind of knew that it was unhealthy. It just didn't feel right. The best way to use body rotation is by just using the hips. So my tip to anyone that wants to use rotation, or is trying to get rid of waist rotation, is to just focus on the hip movement when playing. Doing a bit of "shadowing" only at the hips without anything else related to a table tennis stroke will help.

This is great advice, I would add that active core bracing will help a lot in disabling the waist rotation (you can't rotate it while you've got it locked in place hard), for those who have been using waist rotation for long periods of time like me, it is quite helpful to have this "cue". 
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
Tt Gold View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/22/2014
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1198
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

For those who have lower back discomfort, have you eliminated other possible causes like foot problems (flat foot, pronated/supinated foot, etc.); knee problems; tight hamstrings; hip misalignment, scoliosis, or any other congenital or acquired musculoskeletal defects/deformity? I didn't know I had scoliosis in my lumbar region until an incidental x-ray in my 30s.

Along with advocating waist rotation, the Chinese also emphasized core stability and contraction, which is required to transfer power from the hips to the upper torso. In other words, it's not like players weren't tightening their cores before.

Vertebrae sure gets smaller and more delicate if you will, further up the back. Thoracic rotation requires engaging and tightening more upper back muscle. I'm not sure shifting rotation upwards is a better alternative.

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.

Avoid the scenario of a fully opened stance: you're square to the table, with feet apart, toes aligned, and hips also square to the table, and you keep your feet planted while rotating your shoulders back to take the paddle back.

Just minimize winding up your spine like wringing a towel. Contract your core to keep the hips and shoulders aligned as much as possible.



+1, a free hip rotation (through freeing the legs) and core bracing is the basics here, but waist rotation is proven to be bad regardless of how you do it, the injury statistics and medical articles don't lie... It's time to admit that the Chinese coaching literature has been wrong for decades!

The consensus in the medical community seems to be that thoracic rotation is safe. For e.g boxing uses extensive use of thoracic rotation and they hit with much more violent acceleration than any TT player, I haven't heard of them getting rib or upper back injuries due to this overuse of thoracic rotation (happy to be  proven wrong but so far this seems to be the case). Thoracic rotation also helps take up some load which will reduce the demands on the hips, which i believe to be safer. Also, thoracic rotation has a lot of range of motion, which makes the strokes a lot more speedy and powerful compared to just relying on hip rotation. From what I experience, activating thoracic rotation is also a great cue to brace your core, because you can't do thoracic rotation without core bracing (the lumbar will always rotate first if you don't brace it). 

So far Harimoto is the only one using thoracic rotation on the circuit, it seems to be his best kept secret indeed! He and his parents are geniuses for having made this decision long time ago, which is why I believe Harimoto has a technique advantage over the CNT which is stuck in waist rotation land (and just realising that it is harmful). I'm not sure if they have shared the knowledge with other Japanese team members since they don't seem to be using it....
I don't think harimoto has a technique advantage over the cnt. His forehand is weaker (physically) compared to kids from China that are of the same age. And I don't think they found a secret technique (I like the way you are thinking about this, but I'd actually call this an example of over analyzing). The Chinese would have found this out if it was.
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

For those who have lower back discomfort, have you eliminated other possible causes like foot problems (flat foot, pronated/supinated foot, etc.); knee problems; tight hamstrings; hip misalignment, scoliosis, or any other congenital or acquired musculoskeletal defects/deformity? I didn't know I had scoliosis in my lumbar region until an incidental x-ray in my 30s.

Along with advocating waist rotation, the Chinese also emphasized core stability and contraction, which is required to transfer power from the hips to the upper torso. In other words, it's not like players weren't tightening their cores before.

Vertebrae sure gets smaller and more delicate if you will, further up the back. Thoracic rotation requires engaging and tightening more upper back muscle. I'm not sure shifting rotation upwards is a better alternative.

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.

Avoid the scenario of a fully opened stance: you're square to the table, with feet apart, toes aligned, and hips also square to the table, and you keep your feet planted while rotating your shoulders back to take the paddle back.

Just minimize winding up your spine like wringing a towel. Contract your core to keep the hips and shoulders aligned as much as possible.



+1, a free hip rotation (through freeing the legs) and core bracing is the basics here, but waist rotation is proven to be bad regardless of how you do it, the injury statistics and medical articles don't lie... It's time to admit that the Chinese coaching literature has been wrong for decades!

The consensus in the medical community seems to be that thoracic rotation is safe. For e.g boxing uses extensive use of thoracic rotation and they hit with much more violent acceleration than any TT player, I haven't heard of them getting rib or upper back injuries due to this overuse of thoracic rotation (happy to be  proven wrong but so far this seems to be the case). Thoracic rotation also helps take up some load which will reduce the demands on the hips, which i believe to be safer. Also, thoracic rotation has a lot of range of motion, which makes the strokes a lot more speedy and powerful compared to just relying on hip rotation. From what I experience, activating thoracic rotation is also a great cue to brace your core, because you can't do thoracic rotation without core bracing (the lumbar will always rotate first if you don't brace it). 

So far Harimoto is the only one using thoracic rotation on the circuit, it seems to be his best kept secret indeed! He and his parents are geniuses for having made this decision long time ago, which is why I believe Harimoto has a technique advantage over the CNT which is stuck in waist rotation land (and just realising that it is harmful). I'm not sure if they have shared the knowledge with other Japanese team members since they don't seem to be using it....
I don't think harimoto has a technique advantage over the cnt. His forehand is weaker (physically) compared to kids from China that are of the same age. And I don't think they found a secret technique (I like the way you are thinking about this, but I'd actually call this an example of over analyzing). The Chinese would have found this out if it was.

You're right I probably digressed...sorry couldn't resist it! 

His FH is very underrated, he takes the ball early and reloads really fast compared to those who use waist rotation...in terms of power it is already quite powerful compared to kids his age and size (he doesn't exactly have a powerful build)... If someone with the build of Fan Zhendong or Liang Jingkun uses thoracic rotation it would be doom for the rest of the world lol...
I don't think the Chinese can overhaul their coaching system and literature that fast, they've been caught unaware yet again! The fact that they have no one in the team using thoracic rotation shows the limits of their knowledge.
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
obesechopper View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 04/20/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:26pm
I wonder if blahness has gotten any sleep since discovering this new fascination of his lol... I can basically see the froth dripping from his mouth with each post LOL

Having said that, I already have a lumbar issue (herniated disc) which kept me from using the forehand at all for a long while. I'm really liking the new thoracic shadow training so far. I can feel there is less tension on the spine because it's not being torqued around like a merry go round! I think I'm having trouble getting the hip into action... any videos or techniques to get that part going correctly? I feel the upper body rotation is going fine, but the hips dont really turn unless I move the lumbar with them. I've tried turning with the lumbar, then rotating the lumbar back while keeping the hips stilled rotated. Just feels weird 
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:28pm
Btw, not sure if anyone here can give any advice on breathing while bracing the core? I personally found it difficult, in strength training I was trained to suck in air into my diaphragm, hold my breath and brace for the entire movement. In TT I don't think you can do that, you gotta breathe in and out sometime especially if the points last long....for me it's quite difficult to do that without losing some of the bracing action.  

Edit: I would think that boxing probably had a similar issue that you have to brace your core for long periods of time...



Edited by blahness - 03/21/2019 at 7:09pm
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I wonder if blahness has gotten any sleep since discovering this new fascination of his lol... I can basically see the froth dripping from his mouth with each post LOL

Having said that, I already have a lumbar issue (herniated disc) which kept me from using the forehand at all for a long while. I'm really liking the new thoracic shadow training so far. I can feel there is less tension on the spine because it's not being torqued around like a merry go round! I think I'm having trouble getting the hip into action... any videos or techniques to get that part going correctly? I feel the upper body rotation is going fine, but the hips dont really turn unless I move the lumbar with them. I've tried turning with the lumbar, then rotating the lumbar back while keeping the hips stilled rotated. Just feels weird 

Hahahaha obesechopper you're right I haven't exactly been sleeping well, this has been one of the most exciting discovery I've ever had. I slept at 1am yesterday coz I couldn't quiet my mind lol....I have never managed to do thoracic rotation ever in my entire life!

Imo the foot and knee movement seems to be very key to the hip rotation, I don't do it that well personally tbh, would be good if Ttgold were able to do some simple demonstrations (maybe even without a paddle) to illustrate how to train the hip rotation and mobility in the FH. 
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
stiltt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Northwest USA
Status: Offline
Points: 16147
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:40pm
are there items that help bracing the core for no lateral rotation of the torso? I have seen in gyms the core brace preventing a forward bending but lateral?

Edited by fatt - 03/21/2019 at 5:43pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

are there items that help bracing the core for no lateral rotation of the torso? I have seen in gyms the core brace preventing a forward bending but lateral?

I do these antirotation exercises at the gym regularly to train my core bracing, because I have minor scoliosis the demands on my core when doing squats are greatly amplified... I always do them at the start to warm up  my core before major lifts.

Edit: Would say that these antirotation exercises are an extremely low risk way to train up core bracing. I personally found them extremely useful. (With squats, deadlifts, pullups you have too many other things to worry about). 
I haven't used any braces before personally, but I've seen people use them for squats, tbh it's a good idea, maybe I should use them (for me my core is always the bottleneck, never the legs, using them will lessen the load on my core so I can load up more on the squats without that much fear)


Edited by blahness - 03/21/2019 at 6:06pm
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 7:01pm
Btw, just read a bit more about core bracing, it's actually kinda similar to the  core action when defecating (ie taking a dump/shitting) LOLLOLLOL
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, not sure if anyone here can give any advice on breathing while bracing the core? I personally found it difficult, in strength training I was trained to suck in air into my diaphragm, hold my breath and brace for the entire movement. In TT I don't think you can do that, you gotta breathe in and out sometime especially if the points last long....for me it's quite difficult to do that without losing some of the bracing action.  

Edit: I would think that boxing probably had a similar issue that you have to brace your core for long periods of time...


Following this thread of thinking led me to do some research on breathing in boxing. In fact breathing is viewed as extremely important in boxing. 


From what I gather it's a similar issue in boxing, if you exhale you lose the bracing effect which is also very important in boxing. So there's some degree of air management that's necessary to maintain the core bracing well.  

In TT, it looks like the core bracing is crucial both during the backswing as well as the stroke itself, but you gotta exhale and inhale otherwise you don't get enough oxygen to do these explosive movements. You can't just synchronise your breathing with your strokes because the rhythm of the strokes can be quite irregular (can be fast, slow etc...) while you can't really compromise with your breathing. 

From the article above it seems like boxers inhale through the nose whenever they need to (inhalation is normally not a problem because it increases the core bracing effect), but the exhalation is through the mouth with a pssst or psshb sound which is designed to shut off air flow out of the mouth (losing air is bad because you lose the bracing effect). The exhalation is usually timed with the punch (in TT I would expect to do the same for a stroke). You exhale each a bit each time you do a stroke and not necessarily inhale again, until you feel the need to inhale, then you breathe deeply from your nose. 

To be honest this is all new to me, I'm not even sure if I got it correct? I'm quite sure there's members over here with experience in fighting who can provide some better advice here...  

Edit: watched a bit more videos... seems like the inhalation is something the body does naturally, exhalation is where the technique comes in... will try it some time!

Edit: I tried some of the techniques myself and I think I'm starting to get it, so TT before your first stroke you have to breathe deeply in, then you do a short and sharp exhale with little air every time you do a stroke, and breathe in  deep again whenever your body tells you to. So most of the time the tank is full of air and hence your core is braced effectively most of the time.






Edited by blahness - 03/21/2019 at 10:36pm
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
mickd View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1046
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 9:56pm
When I asked my coach to help me add more of my body and hips into the equation, he kept showing me this movement with the feet. It was like him shifting his weight on his feet. I couldn't do it because I felt like I lost balance whenever I tried, but he did it very naturally during the shadow stroke.

This part of racquetsforsale's post reminded me of that. I recorded the session so maybe I'll add a video when I have time. I wonder what others think about it.

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.
Back to Top
Ieyasu View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/18/2015
Location: DPR Kalifornia
Status: Offline
Points: 184
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ieyasu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

When I asked my coach to help me add more of my body and hips into the equation, he kept showing me this movement with the feet. It was like him shifting his weight on his feet. I couldn't do it because I felt like I lost balance whenever I tried, but he did it very naturally during the shadow stroke.

This part of racquetsforsale's post reminded me of that. I recorded the session so maybe I'll add a video when I have time. I wonder what others think about it.

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.

Interesting. I was going to comment earlier on that exact passage of racquetsforsale's. When I shift my weight, as described above, my hips and waist are naturally aligned. I have no idea whether that's good or bad, but that's what they do.  

That video of TtGold, I think, illustrates what racquesforsale described.


Edited by Ieyasu - 03/21/2019 at 10:22pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2019 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

When I asked my coach to help me add more of my body and hips into the equation, he kept showing me this movement with the feet. It was like him shifting his weight on his feet. I couldn't do it because I felt like I lost balance whenever I tried, but he did it very naturally during the shadow stroke.

This part of racquetsforsale's post reminded me of that. I recorded the session so maybe I'll add a video when I have time. I wonder what others think about it.

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I'd suggest freeing up your hips by letting your feet rotate on their toes, the left on the backswing and right on the followthrough (righty FH), as opposed to keeping your soles planted throughout the stroke. When you plant your feet sole down and stay there, you in turn lock your knees, thighs, and hips in place, as opposed to rotating with your upper torso.

Please do upload the video, I think it will be quite helpful!
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2019 at 1:42am
I extracted some screenshots where Yassun demonstrated the hip rotation and the associated knee movement (btw mickd you should really edit your translation to show hip rotation rather than trunk rotation Wink). You can see Yassun clearly putting his hands on his hips to illustrate that rotation.

1:




2:






Edited by blahness - 03/22/2019 at 1:58am
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
racquetsforsale View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/02/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1227
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2019 at 2:52am
Here's a video of Waldner. Notice how his heels are off the ground and his feet pivoting on his toes. Sometimes, his rotation even pulls his right foot forward.



Edited by racquetsforsale - 03/22/2019 at 1:27pm
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 3086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2019 at 3:34am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Here's a video of Waldner. Notice how his heels are off the ground and his feet pivoting on his toes. Sometimes, his rotation even pulls his right foot forward.


Yep he definitely has good foot rotation going on. Btw this could also explain why Waldner had lots of lower back issues, he drops his right shoulder (trunk flexion) and rotates at his waist too (trunk rotation)...


Edited by blahness - 03/22/2019 at 3:35am
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50
Back to Top
mickd View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1046
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2019 at 3:43am
Here's the video of my coach doing the feet thing.

He mentions at the very start there are 3 timings with the foot "leaning" towards the outside, in the middle then "leaning" towards the inside. Off memory earlier when he did it, he mentioned contacting the ball during the middle one.



It's likely he's over exaggerating it for demonstration purposes, but it's interesting because it's not just going for mostly flat foot to having the heel up with weight finishing on the front of the other foot.


As for the translation, I didn't mention anything that they didn't say. It definitely looks like hip rotation, but they didn't mention it specifically. They talked about rotating the body as if your body was a rod. So more like whole body rotation without leaning towards one side.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.