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    Posted: 01/17/2019 at 6:27am

Came across this amazing BH service tutorial video and was very intrigued at his style of movement as it looks super deceptive.... 

Can someone who's good at Japanese be so helpful as to translate this video? 


Edited by blahness - 01/23/2019 at 1:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2019 at 6:56am
in the end it's always the same the way I understand it.
hit the ball in the bottom -> backspin
hit the ball on the side -> no backspin

other than that it's just movements trying to disguise what he's really doing.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 01/17/2019 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2019 at 1:33am
I might translate the whole video for you. I'm going through it now on youtube. Hopefully the WRM guys approve it after I add the subtitles in. If not, I'll post the subs here. I'm not sure when I'll get it done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2019 at 2:14am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I might translate the whole video for you. I'm going through it now on youtube. Hopefully the WRM guys approve it after I add the subtitles in. If not, I'll post the subs here. I'm not sure when I'll get it done.
It's a great looking video. I hope to see your translation sometime.  Quality videos on backhand service are rare to find.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/18/2019 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I might translate the whole video for you. I'm going through it now on youtube. Hopefully the WRM guys approve it after I add the subtitles in. If not, I'll post the subs here. I'm not sure when I'll get it done.


Thanks a lot mickd! It's really appreciated :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2019 at 6:31pm
No worries! I asked WRM and they said if I add the subs they'll approve them within a day or two! So yeah, I'll let you know when they're done. I haven't had time to work on it since Friday, and I got about half done then. I'll try to finish the rest soon.

I tried to reply yesterday, but the forum was having issues :S
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2019 at 7:04pm
If you want to translate another video you should probably translate this one video as it it probably a video with huge value about the forehand topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2019 at 8:14pm
Yeah sure. I'll see how it goes after I finish this one. Maybe I'll just do requests slowly, taking new requests as I finish previous ones.

Since Japanese is my third language, I have to look certain things up, which increases the amount of time it takes, too. But it's also good practice :)

Thankfully YouTube's subtitle adding system is pretty easy to use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:27am
Alright. I've submitted my subtitles to YouTube for review. I'm not sure how it works since I've never done it before. But it seems like it needs to be peer reviewed first? I'm not sure if the WRM guys can just approve it straight away, or if they are only shown with that option after it has been peer reviewed.

It took way too many hours to translate heh. Hopefully you guys can see it soon...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:38am
It's funny how they use so many baseball terms for table tennis in Japan, like gyro, a reference to the gyroball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:57am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Alright. I've submitted my subtitles to YouTube for review. I'm not sure how it works since I've never done it before. But it seems like it needs to be peer reviewed first? I'm not sure if the WRM guys can just approve it straight away, or if they are only shown with that option after it has been peer reviewed.

It took way too many hours to translate heh. Hopefully you guys can see it soon...

The owner will get the option to review it first and then decide whether to publish it.

This is how it looks on the owner's Youtube page.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 4:29am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

in the end it's always the same the way I understand it.
hit the ball in the bottom -> backspin
hit the ball on the side -> no backspin
other than that it's just movements trying to disguise what he's really doing.

True. Same goes for any style serve.
However, for the experienced player, this can be a nice tweek to their serve.
For the relatively new player, it can be a nice addition to their serve armoury.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 10:29am
Thanks zeio. I contacted the WRM guys before I did it and they said that they'll approve it if I sub it :) So hopefully we'll see it soon!

I just left gyro as it was when I translated it. I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. Sometimes I used the verb curl instead. But I feel like gyro is kind of easy to understand. Hopefully that's not because I actually live in Japan!!

About the video, it's very repetitive. That said, I feel the points he makes are a little more informative than just "hit the ball in the bottom or the side".

Check it out when the subs are added and let me know what you think!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 11:12am
time spent in the forum is time that could have been spent translating.

gui tzzzzz!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks zeio. I contacted the WRM guys before I did it and they said that they'll approve it if I sub it :) So hopefully we'll see it soon!

I just left gyro as it was when I translated it. I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. Sometimes I used the verb curl instead. But I feel like gyro is kind of easy to understand. Hopefully that's not because I actually live in Japan!!

About the video, it's very repetitive. That said, I feel the points he makes are a little more informative than just "hit the ball in the bottom or the side".

Check it out when the subs are added and let me know what you think!

Corkscrew is the one I see often used in English-speaking sites for describing rotation around the axis of motion. Still, viewers should get the message with gyro.



Edited by zeio - 01/21/2019 at 1:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 8:35pm
Ahhh yeah that's what it was haha. I was trying to recall it when I was subbing it. Thanks! Since I started playing in Japan, sometimes I'm not even sure what verbs or terms are usually used in English lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks zeio. I contacted the WRM guys before I did it and they said that they'll approve it if I sub it :) So hopefully we'll see it soon!

I just left gyro as it was when I translated it. I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. Sometimes I used the verb curl instead. But I feel like gyro is kind of easy to understand. Hopefully that's not because I actually live in Japan!!

About the video, it's very repetitive. That said, I feel the points he makes are a little more informative than just "hit the ball in the bottom or the side".

Check it out when the subs are added and let me know what you think!
 

Thanks mickd! ClapClapClap Will be refreshing the video to see when the subs are available. I think the way he is disguising the serve is extremely good, and is quite a bit more advanced than your typical serve tutorial video and more in line of what the pros are doing.

I could hardly tell the difference between side-top and side-under if I'm being honest, I had a friend who serves a similar style and I was eating his serves for breakfast Dead  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 2:03am
CLEVER STUDENT NEEDS NO NARRATION.   clever...

japanese people all are great teachers. and I think myself a clever student. I have a pair of eye-balls on my face, I also have some grey pulp in my head-box, so I need NO SUB NARRATION in the video.

THANKS to Japanese teacher, I can understand everything. WHAT you need is some mental power, nothing else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 2:03am
It seems like the subs have been added! Yay! Sorry about the first minute. Some of those statements were awkward to translate naturally. Hopefully when he starts talking it's a little more pleasant to read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2019 at 2:50am
Wow that was amazing.... I understand the concept perfectly now haha! Will definitely try it out... but it doesn't help us from a receiving standpoint, it would still be crazy difficult to read this serve! I think Ovtcharov also has a similar movement except it's more exaggerated. 

Thanks mickd for all your efforts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2019 at 8:52pm
Awesome video.
It's not a new concept, it's how Dima serves etc, but it's awesomely useful to TT players at large
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:01pm
I must be missing something. He talks about hitting the ball with the middle of the racket to generate side-under or gyro spin. But whenI watch the video it looks like both top and under are being hit with ball contact on the tip and very close to the same spot.

Is there something I am missing in the translation or am I just visually missing that the ball is contacted on a different part of the blade?

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:24pm
I was a little confused about that, too, Mark. He used various terms that all mean middle, so I'm not sure if there's some nuance there that changed the meaning. He points to the middle of the racket at various times, too, even if it looks like some of them are being hit towards the tip. The side by side he shows various times for example, both look like the tip. But during the examples he does while talking, more of them look a little more towards the middle.

Here's where he points.



Personally for me, if you imagine the backhand swing to be like a parabola (the blue line below), it's mostly about trying to get the contact as close to the vertex as possible. Then if you want side-under, you time it to be JUST before the vertex. The closer it is to the vertex, the more deceptive it is. Similarly, for side-top, aim JUST after the vertex (which is when your swing starts to go up). When I get the contact literally like a centimeter from the vertex in either direction, it looks extremely similar.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:34pm
For me personally I got very heavy side underspin if I targeted the right edge of the racket as a right-hander, and heavy side top if I targeted more of the tip (still towards the right edge). Imagine the blade being a clock with the handle at 6 o'clock and tip at 12 oclock, contact for side under would be closer to 3 oclock, side top is 1 o'clock. The other thing that I found useful was visualising the direction that the wrist applies force, if the wrist applies force forward it's underspin, and sideways is side topspin. I think you can achieve it with basically the same blade angle and same movement, which makes it very deceptive!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:59pm
Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:32am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
First, I really want to thank you for translating this and adding the subtitles.  It's a very interesting video and too much is lost without understanding what he's saying.  In that sense, PingPungPeng had it completely wrong, because it's not about the usual "hit the bottom to get back spin, etc.".  It's so much more.

There were some portions where there was Japanese text on the screen and I wish you would add translations for those, too.  Such notes might seem self-obvious to you, but to me it just leaves me wondering.  Also, I think that his "gyro spin" just means side spin not corkscrew.  None of these serves involves anything more complicated than that.  And producing real corkscrew spin requires significant racket motion going forward.

Going to the most recent discussion points: I'm not sure that he gets much backspin at all.  He talks about hitting the same middle for both (which I agree probably means near the middle of the edge) and getting either side spin or side-bottom spin, randomly.  In the demo serves, none of them look like strong backspin, but they can fool you because the top spin is very strong (so a receiver expecting top spin sees the light underspin as very different).  In my practice, those motions only produce slight underspin with strong side spin.  It's hard to see how you can get underspin without either going under the ball or down the back of the ball.

Blahness mentioned the similarities to Ovtcharov's BH serve and it is very similar.  However, Ovtcharov stand more sideways to the table, so that his racket swing moves much more in the direction the ball is going to go.  That makes his spins work differently; for one thing, he might actually be able to produce that corkscrew serve.

One thing I found notable was that the serve keeps his elbow quite high.  I think this is an important part of keeping the racket head down.  I think the guy in the video should have talked about this.

Just my two cents worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:32am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
 

To be fair, if you're only talking about a line between the blade handle and tip, the right edge is more towards the "middle" LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:47am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
First, I really want to thank you for translating this and adding the subtitles.  It's a very interesting video and too much is lost without understanding what he's saying.  In that sense, PingPungPeng had it completely wrong, because it's not about the usual "hit the bottom to get back spin, etc.".  It's so much more.

There were some portions where there was Japanese text on the screen and I wish you would add translations for those, too.  Such notes might seem self-obvious to you, but to me it just leaves me wondering.  Also, I think that his "gyro spin" just means side spin not corkscrew.  None of these serves involves anything more complicated than that.  And producing real corkscrew spin requires significant racket motion going forward.

Going to the most recent discussion points: I'm not sure that he gets much backspin at all.  He talks about hitting the same middle for both (which I agree probably means near the middle of the edge) and getting either side spin or side-bottom spin, randomly.  In the demo serves, none of them look like strong backspin, but they can fool you because the top spin is very strong (so a receiver expecting top spin sees the light underspin as very different).  In my practice, those motions only produce slight underspin with strong side spin.  It's hard to see how you can get underspin without either going under the ball or down the back of the ball.

Blahness mentioned the similarities to Ovtcharov's BH serve and it is very similar.  However, Ovtcharov stand more sideways to the table, so that his racket swing moves much more in the direction the ball is going to go.  That makes his spins work differently; for one thing, he might actually be able to produce that corkscrew serve.

One thing I found notable was that the serve keeps his elbow quite high.  I think this is an important part of keeping the racket head down.  I think the guy in the video should have talked about this.

Just my two cents worth.
 

When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under. 



 


Edited by blahness - 01/24/2019 at 1:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 2:02am
@benfb No problem! I'm glad people can benefit from the video. After seeing pingpungpeng's comment (nothing wrong or against him in any way), I was more inclined to sub it because there was a lot more value in the video than just what he said.

A few of the examples he does does look a little like corkscrew spin. The main one he uses to compare the top and under serves looks more like a regular side-under spin serve, though.

When I was trying the serve motion I also felt the same. You need your elbow higher than usual, else it feels super awkward to have the racket head pointing down. Good point to note!!

@blahness Yes, let's go with that! I had to infer some of it because of the similarity of 3 terms he used that all mean middle to me hehe.

On another note, I'm working on translating the video that Tt Gold linked earlier. I'm glad these subs were useful, since they do take awhile. As long as there is interest, I'll slowly add subs to requested videos.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2019 at 2:08am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under. 



 
That's similar to what i've been working with, but for me it doesn't produce much backspin, not compared to my pendulum serves (or even my reserve pendulum serve).

Maybe we need a Part II video. Smile
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