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Define throw angle!

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    Posted: 10/08/2011 at 1:14am
a

Edited by pnachtwey - 03/24/2012 at 3:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruit loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 1:39am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Throw angle is the angle between what and what else?
What causes the angle between what and what else?
How does one measuere throw angle?
I have yet to set a good definition.

It is the weekend and we need something to stir things up.



Oh god, not this sh*t again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 1:55am
Yeah, it's weekend... Time for trolls/dogs to go around pissing on others to establish dominance, lol...






Edited by roundrobin - 10/08/2011 at 2:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 3:24am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Throw angle is the angle between what and what else?
What causes the angle between what and what else?
How does one measuere throw angle?
I have yet to set a good definition.

It is the weekend and we need something to stir things up.




I think a qualitative assessment of throw is based on how much you feel you need to brush upwards in order to produce the desired amount of lift, e.g. the amount of arc with which the ball leaves the paddle. A setup with higher throw requires less effort to produce the same amount of lift as a setup with lower throw.

Based on my experience, a setup with higher throw also gives the sensation of gripping the ball more and extended dwell time. It intrigues me, though, that a rubber can be relatively spinny or reacts strongly to incoming spin while producing low throw.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 3:53am
For me it's just what angle the ball comes off the blade at with your normal swing relative to other rubbers, at the table H2 comes off pretty much flat other rubbers are upwards a few degrees at least from that. I don't think any rubber throws more than about 15 degrees for me

Edited by bluebucket - 10/08/2011 at 3:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 4:40am
a



Edited by pnachtwey - 03/24/2012 at 3:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 5:06am
p,

I've tried a sheet of Dawei Inspirit 40 BL and 38 RED on an ALL+ blade. Their sensitivity to spin in the simple spin test (spinning the ball straight up and then letting it bounce on the rubber) belies their surprisingly low throw. In addition, I need to tilt the blade just a little bit to keep the spinning ball bouncing straight up in the spin test, which jives with the low throw observed at the table. It's almost as thought the spinning ball can grip the rubber hard, yet when used to actively spin the ball, the rubber does not grip the ball hard.

The Inspirit also has a somewhat strange feeling sponge that spreads out the sensation of the ball's impact. Maybe it has something to do with my rubber cement glue job.

As a result of the possible discrepancy between a rubber's apparent sensitivity to incoming spin and its throw, I think it's probably not accurate to quantify a rubber's throw by clamping it at the end of a table, shooting topspin balls at it, and measuring the deflection angle from the top of table. You'd need a robotic arm that can swing the blade to hit the ball at a predefined swing and blade angle, while keeping the type and amount of incoming spin constant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 5:24am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

"You can make the same stroke and the ball may go higher or lower depending on incoming spin."
 The definition fails
 
Agree. The probans (incoming spin) is irrelevant to the probandum (high throw of the rubber). The correct definition would be
 
"Given one and the same incoming spin, you make the same stroke and the ball goes higher or lower."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 5:31am
high throw rubbers would be great for over the table attacks as you can start swinging from behind the table and build up momentum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viktorovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 7:17am
 ? " You make the same stroke and the ball goes higher or lower,under all other identical conditions. except rubber " ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swampthing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 1:57pm
Higher throw angle just means you have to close your blade, on average, more than a less spinnier setup. I say setup because a flex-ier blade can influence the throw angle. The throw angle, IMO, is a function of many variables including rubber tack/grip/hardness/dwell and blade flex/dwell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:


Originally posted by Fruit Loop Fruit Loop wrote:


Oh god, not this sh*t again

Yes, this sh*t again and that is what I think about it too. Don't step in it Ben.

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Yeah, it's weekend... Time for trolls/dogs to go around pissing on others to establish dominance, lol...

What is your problem? You should know I don't care if I piss you off especially when you call me a troll when I am asking questions. I am not the one that spreads bad information. Those that speak of throw angles when they can't define it are the ones that are filling this forum full of useless garbage.

I asked three simple questions. Give me an answer or just say you don't know what your are talking about. This isn't about dominance. It is about a defintion. If you can't define throw angle then it is a useless term.

I hear so much talk about this or that rubber having a higher or lower throw angle. I say those that use the term throw angle don't know what they are talking about and are just repeating garbage they have heard from some one else that doesn't know anything. If you know what you are talking about then prove it! Answer my 3 questions. Is that so hard?



Lol... You have a problem of my opinion about you starting this thread?  Look at yourself in the mirror.  You are one who loves to fill this forum full of useless garbage.  You are the one who doesn't know what the heck you are talking about anything related to table tennis most of the time.  You are the one who confuses other newbies with your countless garbage filled with mambo-jumbo with the sole intention to impress newbies.  Is it so hard not to troll for "answers" when you think you already know your b.s. "authoritative" ones and ready to stamp on your authority when the moment comes?  This is trolling.  What value are you adding by starting this topic again just to "stir the pot because it's weekend" as you said?  Again, it is trolling for your own amusement.

There are two distinct types of posters in this forum:  Those who ask genuine questions looking for genuine answers from those who know, and those who think they know it all and ask questions they already know on purpose just to "stir the pot" for their own amusement.  Based on your entire posting history you fall squarely into the latter.  No genuine questions related to table tennis can be answered by you because you don't really know them, and no genuine questions can ever come from you because you think you know them all.  It's completely useless trying to "argue" anything with you.  You are not interested in any answers but your own.  You are an insecure troll constantly trying to reaffirm the worth of your fancy academic title.  "Hello?"  An advanced degree in science or medical practice is the norm, not exception among my friends at our club. 

So let's see your own answers already since you call all others garbage.





Edited by roundrobin - 10/09/2011 at 3:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnthonyTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 2:33pm
Throw angle on a typical Chinese Rubber like LKT Red Diamond? :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 4:30pm
a



Edited by pnachtwey - 03/24/2012 at 3:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 11:09pm
P,

I've used only regular commercial TG2. I think it has a good amount of throw and good grip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2011 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I can understand the throw angle of a rubber but I never heard about variable throw angle depending the stroke used.
 
Is it possible to say that the throw of the rubber is going from low to high or high to low as we increase speed? as we increase verticality of the stroke (against backspin or driving/looping forward for example).
 
Then we'd have a better way to understand a rubber; we'd understand better how 1)the topsheet and 2)the sponge thickness, bouncyness and hardness influence the throw in function of speed and angle of the paddle trajectory (relatively to the table), angle of the paddle at time of contact with the ball.
 
We would probably end up saying things like "this rubber tends to have a higher throw than average on opening loops against backspin while it has a much lower throw on forward strokes against incoming fast drives".
 
So many factors...it's mind blowing!


With all other factors fixed, i think throw angle reflects how the rubber reacts to certain incoming conditions, i would say throw angle is mostly used with loops or loop drives. But I don't think speed of a stroke has much to do with it, as when you increase speed with same stroke and paddle direction/angle, throw angle can also be measured by it's tendency to go long or short.

And can a rubber have different throw angles against different incoming conditions? I don't have evidence but think no, it doesn't mean high throw rubbers never go into the net, maybe it just doesn't have enough speed or need a more proper stroke for those fast drives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 12:23am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Roundrobin, obviously you can't answer my questions so you only make personal attacks.

Quote
So let's see your own answers already since you call all others garbage.

The previous posts don't answer any of my 3 questions. They talk about the ball going higher or lower but there are a lot of things that affect whether the ball goes higher or lower like incoming spin.
Imago's and viktorovich's aswer at least nows that the incoming condition must be the same for a good comparison between different rubbers but how often does that happen? If you are going to talk about throw angle then there must be a way to measure it.

Roundrobin, why don't the TT rubber manufacturers advertise a throw angle for their rubbers? Perhaps they know something that you don't. I think the ratio of spin to speed ratings is enough since the same force that generates spin also generates the angle between the frictionless angle of reflection and the actual path that the ball takes. From what I have seen the TT manufacturers seem to be happy with speed and spin ratings.
It is too bad the spin and speed ratings aren't accurate because I agree with raquetsforsale, the spin and speed ratings change as a function of impact speeds.



Don't flatter yourself, Peter.  I don't answer to trolls.  Never confuse can't with won't.  I have a Construction Engineering degree from Cal Poly Pomona so I know my Physics.  Get lost.





Edited by roundrobin - 10/09/2011 at 12:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 12:32am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:



Don't flatter yourself, Peter.  I don't answer to trolls.  Never confuse don't with won't.  I have a Construction Engineering degree from Cal Poly Pomona so I know my Physics.  Get lost.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swampthing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 3:03am
Originally posted by atv atv wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I can understand the throw angle of a rubber but I never heard about variable throw angle depending the stroke used.
 
Is it possible to say that the throw of the rubber is going from low to high or high to low as we increase speed? as we increase verticality of the stroke (against backspin or driving/looping forward for example).
 
Then we'd have a better way to understand a rubber; we'd understand better how 1)the topsheet and 2)the sponge thickness, bouncyness and hardness influence the throw in function of speed and angle of the paddle trajectory (relatively to the table), angle of the paddle at time of contact with the ball.
 
We would probably end up saying things like "this rubber tends to have a higher throw than average on opening loops against backspin while it has a much lower throw on forward strokes against incoming fast drives".
 
So many factors...it's mind blowing!


With all other factors fixed, i think throw angle reflects how the rubber reacts to certain incoming conditions, i would say throw angle is mostly used with loops or loop drives. But I don't think speed of a stroke has much to do with it, as when you increase speed with same stroke and paddle direction/angle, throw angle can also be measured by it's tendency to go long or short.

And can a rubber have different throw angles against different incoming conditions? I don't have evidence but think no, it doesn't mean high throw rubbers never go into the net, maybe it just doesn't have enough speed or need a more proper stroke for those fast drives.


It makes sense that the throw angle would be variable to the speed as well, because friction would be higher.  One more variable to add to the list. Smile

The brain is so cool to be able to process all that data and we can walk away from trying a rubber saying 'I think the throw on this is higher/lower than what I normally use.'  Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Don't flatter yourself, Peter.  I don't answer to trolls.  Never confuse can't with won't.  I have a Construction Engineering degree from Cal Poly Pomona so I know my Physics.  Get lost.


Wow, you are a well-rounded engineer. Most licensed Civil Engineers I work with, some of which do structural design, because they've been away from school for so long, don't really know their physics anymore, especially not dynamics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:


Wow, you are a well-rounded engineer. Most licensed Civil Engineers I work with, some of which do structural design, because they've been away from school for so long, don't really know their physics anymore, especially not dynamics.


Are you being snide or facetious?  Is graduated magna cum laude good enough?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 1:58pm
First of all, the engineers I work with, because they have had no need for it, just have not kept up with their studies in particular subjects.

Secondly, how one did in school might not accurately reflect how much he or she still retains to this day. I was pretty darn good in calculus, but I've retained only about 10% of all the calculus material I studied in college.

My co-workers were all exceptional college students with high marks and honors. Some are PhDs and others have masters degrees, yet I can pull out a problem from my physics or dynamics book to stump them.

If you've kept up with your physics studies to this day and can discuss it intelligently with another, then you are as I said before well rounded and a rarity based on my experience with the engineers I've worked with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

 
Yeah, it's weekend... Time for trolls/dogs to go around pissing on others to establish dominance, lol...

What is your problem? You should know I don't care if I piss you off especially when you call me a troll when I am asking questions. I am not the one that spreads bad information. Those that speak of throw angles when they can't define it are the ones that are filling this forum full of useless garbage.

I asked three simple questions. Give me an answer or just say you don't know what your are talking about. This isn't about dominance. It is about a defintion. If you can't define throw angle then it is a useless term.

I hear so much talk about this or that rubber having a higher or lower throw angle. I say those that use the term throw angle don't know what they are talking about and are just repeating garbage they have heard from some one else that doesn't know anything. If you know what you are talking about then prove it! Answer my 3 questions. Is that so hard?



Lol... You have a problem of my opinion about you starting this thread?  Look at yourself in the mirror.  You are one who loves to fill this forum full of useless garbage.  You are the one who doesn't know what the heck you are talking about anything related to table tennis most of the time.  You are the one who confuses other newbies with your countless useless garbage filled with mambo-jumbo with the sole intention to impress newbies.  Is it so hard not to troll for "answers" when you think you already know your b.s. "authoritative" ones and ready to stamp on your authority when the moment comes?  This is trolling.  What value are you adding by starting this topic again just to "stir the pot because it's weekend" as you said?  Again, it is trolling for your own amusement.

There are two distinct types of posters in this forum:  Those who ask genuine questions looking for genuine answers from those who know, and those who think they know it all and ask questions they already know on purpose just to "stir the pot" for their own amusement.  Based on your entire posting history you fall squarely into the latter.  No genuine questions related to table tennis can be answer by you because you don't really know them, and no genuine questions can ever come from you because you think you know them all.  It's completely useless trying to "argue" anything with you.  You are not interested in any answers but your own.  You are a insecure troll constantly trying to reaffirm the worth of your fancy academic title.  "Hello?"  An advanced degree in science or medical practice is the norm, not exception among my friends at our club. 

So let's see your own answers already since you call all others garbage.


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Edited by Anton Chigurh - 10/09/2011 at 2:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 4:12pm



Edited by pnachtwey - 03/24/2012 at 3:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 4:29pm
Anyone who thinks that the 'throw angle' of a rubber is an exact science is trying to be clever. There are too many variables, the whole term is a reasonably accurate guide, that's all, to be helpful to anyone other than himself and his superior ego, the OP would be far better off explaining the principles of the terminology in simple terms, rather than posting a question he thinks he knows the answer too, in order to appear superior. 

 So for anyone really interested;

The throw angle is the angle that the ball flies off the racket from your stroke. For example, when you perform a topspin loop, a high throw angle rubber will propel the ball higher, and a low throw angle rubber will propel it lower. So with high throw angle rubbers you often have to adjust your stroke to be lower to compensate for the high throw angle. And for low throw angle rubbers, you have to swing higher to get the ball over the net.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I like to read from pna; all his contribution on this thread have been but positive if we except the answers to negative reactions to his inoffensive endeavour.
 
 

 I also enjoy some of his posts, but this one is just a baiting, he would argue day is night. Everytime someone comes up with a reasonable answer, it is ridiculed then followed with the sort of gobbledygook that is actually of no use to anyone.

''The friction of the rubber will cause the ball to go horizontally at 10 m/s and perhaps vertically at perhaps at 0.5 m/s.   The vertical 0.5 m/s vector and the horizontal 10 m/s vector cause an angle from horizontal.   That angle is the atan(0.5/10)=2.86 degrees. 
Now if the incoming speed is 5 m/s and I still move my paddle up at 1 m/s so the component moving up after impact is 1 m/s then the angle is atan(0.5/5)=5.7 degrees.''


 I tell that to all my 15 yr olds when they ask about throw angles. BTW, he used 'perhaps' twice, as I said, not an exact science, so why tart it up as one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I like to read from pna; all his contribution on this thread have been but positive if we except the answers to negative reactions to his inoffensive endeavour.
 
I don't care what he thinks about himself; I care about what interests me and what does not I leave it.
 
It there is a troll on this thread (I do not say there is), pna is not it.
 
hahaha I hear you man, some people thing they own the forum and will just attack and stir when they should just walk away, This subject may have been discussed before but its still interesting for some members , so for the some that want to talk about thier own self importance or want to just stir I wish they would ____ off lol
 
 Anyhow back to the topic yes a ap40 said many variables but rubbers that can grip and spin will get the ball to bounce a bit higher


Edited by smackman - 10/09/2011 at 5:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:



Anyone who thinks that the 'throw angle' of a rubber is an exact science is trying to be clever. There are too many variables, the whole term is a reasonably accurate guide, that's all, to be helpful to anyone other than himself and his superior ego, the OP would be far better off explaining the principles of the terminology in simple terms, rather than posting a question he thinks he knows the answer too, in order to appear superior. 
 So for anyone really interested;
<span ="apple-style-span"="" style="color: rgb68, 68, 68; font-family: verdana, sans-serif; line-height: 19px; ">The throw angle is the angle that the ball flies off the racket from your stroke. For example, when you perform a topspin loop, a high throw angle rubber will propel the ball higher, and a low throw angle rubber will propel it lower. So with high throw angle rubbers you often have to adjust your stroke to be lower to compensate for the high throw angle. And for low throw angle rubbers, you have to swing higher to get the ball over the net.</span>



Agree. Easy to understand and anyone who have ever played TT will understand. High and low throw rubbers are always compared to each other and to even try to make it an exact science is... Well, not usefull actually.

There are so many variables to consider, so even with an exact formula, in the end, it would still be individual how we perceive the rubbers throw. Keep it easy instead, and compare rubbers to each other and we will all get a fairly good idea of how a rubber throws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2011 at 7:02pm





Edited by roundrobin - 10/13/2011 at 1:45am
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