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Did Ma Long has the right feeling for this point?

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    Posted: 05/15/2022 at 7:49am
Hello good people!

Edit: Posted this topic after just cleaning my computer from useles files. Then I found that printscreen I made from a match between Timo Boll and Ma Long. Couldn't remeber which one was that exactly until Zeio posted a link to the point. Thanks Zeio!
Now I remember correct the situation. Umpires gave the point to Timo, but Ma Long complained, so Timo gave him next point.
A true champion that is Ma Long to has such a behaviour...

But why he wanted to stole that point? And why Timo gave him the next one?
Had Ma Long the right feeling here for this point?

In this situation I have been educated : When the hit is done out of side lines and ball touch the edge of the table's nearside - The ball must jump on the level of the table or higher. Then the point is for the player who hit the ball. Nothing like that happened, but the ball just dropped from the edge. Point is 1000000000% for Timo.
And Ma Long complained. Is this behaviour of a true champion?

Thanks for your comments.




Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 6:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 9:10am
Each clever umpire should declare "replay" because of uncertainity.
Most memorable case of disconsent happened between Persson and Samsonov at Olympics 2008.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 2:28pm
I didn't think the ball had to be served from within the sidelines, but I could be wrong. I guess I always figured you don't need a rule for it because it doesn't make a lot of sense to serve from that far out of court.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 2:29pm
I'm thinking I don't understand the scenario
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I didn't think the ball had to be served from within the sidelines, but I could be wrong. I guess I always figured you don't need a rule for it because it doesn't make a lot of sense to serve from that far out of court.
The player can stand anywhere they want to on the serve as long as the during the serve the ball is contacted behind the end line on the table.


Edited by Vince64 - 05/15/2022 at 2:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I didn't think the ball had to be served from within the sidelines, but I could be wrong. I guess I always figured you don't need a rule for it because it doesn't make a lot of sense to serve from that far out of court.


It is not about a serve, but Ma Long attacked a ball out of table, visible on the picture.
And ball touched the timo's half's edge and dropped. Who is the point winner? - Timo, of course!
But umpire gave the point to Timo and Timo gave the next point to Ma Long.


Edited by kolevtt - 05/15/2022 at 5:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 3:34pm
I always assumed that if the ball is within the two side-lines of the table then the ball cant (apart from with extreme sidespin) contact the (out)side of the table. 

However, if the ball is outside of the two side-lines (as the picture seems to indicate was the case for this shot) then it is possible for the ball to contact either the top-edge of the table or the (out)side of the table. 

Thus, the above picture doesn't prove anything. I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 3:44pm
The picture does not prove anything, but he made the comment that the ball deflected downward as it hit on Timo's side.  For balls struck from outside the sideline I use the direction of deflection to determine whether the ball hit  the edge or the side of the table.  If there is any upward. deflection, then I consider it an edge.  If not then I consider it a side hit.  Not a perfect method as there are some weird shot trajectories for which it might not work, but these are extremely rare.

Just the way I make my calls.  Yours may differ.

Mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dajdosta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 4:02pm
We need a video of that situation otherwise it's pointless guessing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 4:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 4:38pm

Thanks a lot! What's your opinion, who is the point winner here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 8:25pm
obvious, is it not ?
Umpire made a good and correct call and have the point to Timo.
reason ?
The ball having being struck by Ma Long from outside the sideline of the table, had contacted the side of the table before it continued with its downward flight. 
Do not see anything unbecoming with Ma Long disputing the call though we see Timo tried to explain how the point was correctly given to himself.
The greatness of the man Timo was when he gave Ma Long a 'free' point next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ClimbK2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 10:09am
Yes, Ma Long struck the ball wide of the table, so the ball could easily have hit the side of the table.  I looked several times at 9:46 of the linked recording, and couldn't tell for sure whether the ball caught the top edge or side.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cmugica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 11:16am
It's Timo's point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 11:29am
I 100% don't believe ML was trying to steal the point and Timo a good sport and probably didn't want ML to feel cheated gave him the point.  Is there a big controversy here?  I don't believe you guys could find much better sportsman than these two in TT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 11:44am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I 100% don't believe ML was trying to steal the point and Timo a good sport and probably didn't want ML to feel cheated gave him the point.  Is there a big controversy here?  I don't believe you guys could find much better sportsman than these two in TT.


Thanks to zeio (he shared the link to the video, because I couldn't find it, I had only one picture as printscreen I did when I noticed that bad behaviour, but forget to make the topic during that time) I remember clearly what happened there.
Please. Ma Long was with ALL HIS BODY OUT of side line of the table also and the ball was out.
He hit the ball and ball just dropped after touching the edge...Chance the point to be for him is Zero or Negative. Ma Long started to show with finger that he hit the edge to one of the umpires. He continued to to argue with his eyesight like someone stole his breakfast. Even Timo explained him (Please see again the body language of Timo after that rally) the ball just dropped.
Even if the ball was on the edge, Ma Long is OUT of side lines, Ball is OUT of side lines.
What Ma Long wants here?
That's disturbing player like Ma Long doesn't knows the rules who is the point winner here.
Should be interesting if he is able to explain WHAT EXACTLY he wanted after that rally.
And Timo.......made bad decision after all. All that situation was weird for me. And just shared it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 12:21pm
Kolevtt, not debating whether the ball was an edge or side - just saying ML did not try to cheat , that is he thought  that he really won the point (and yes he would know the rule and the reaction of the ball).  And when you say that Timo made bad decision - you are just talking about the technical view - not the sportsman view
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 12:23pm
I looked at your subject - to be frank it is insulting to one of the greatest players of all time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 12:29pm
You can't say 100% that if your contact point is outside the line, that the ball won't come in.
Around the net shot is like so common nowadays.

If you look at Ma Long's shot, his angle is going from out to in.
So if it didn't hit the edge/side, he would have landed that ball deep onto the white line.

The theory of ball hitting table and going down = side is mostly the case. But not always the case.
A faint edge will go downwards too.
The question is the arc then, on when did the ball start dipping and how close was it to the edge.

Maybe in our children or grand children's life time, they will start using some technology and get rid of all these doubts for good :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I looked at your subject - to be frank it is insulting to one of the greatest players of all time


I'm sure Ma Long knows more of the ITTF handbook than most qualified umpires in this forum, yet alone amateur players


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/16/2022 at 12:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I looked at your subject - to be frank it is insulting to one of the greatest players of all time


I'm sure Ma Long knows more of the ITTF handbook than most qualified umpires in this forum, yet alone amateur players


To Tom: I am not insulting anyone. I just posted a question. By logic, if he was familiar with the rule he should know better who is the point winner, not to argue and make sad face to Timo.
That was probably the reason Timo gave him next point. There is something connected with psychology here, it's not about the rules. There was not any reason Timo to give him a point.
But they were double partners in a tournament I remember..................

To ZApenholder: Yes, sure he knows more than everyone here and that's why he said to umpires he had hit the edge.
The ball was not so close to the table when he hit it. It was all out. Despite of that, he argued.

Pretty strangely from your side, but thanks for the opinion.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Kolevtt, not debating whether the ball was an edge or side - just saying ML did not try to cheat , that is he thought  that he really won the point (and yes he would know the rule and the reaction of the ball).  And when you say that Timo made bad decision - you are just talking about the technical view - not the sportsman view


He didn't try to cheat. Okay Nobody wrote so.
He just asked Timo's point for himself Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote alford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

The picture does not prove anything, but he made the comment that the ball deflected downward as it hit on Timo's side.  For balls struck from outside the sideline I use the direction of deflection to determine whether the ball hit  the edge or the side of the table.  If there is any upward. deflection, then I consider it an edge.  If not then I consider it a side hit.  Not a perfect method as there are some weird shot trajectories for which it might not work, but these are extremely rare.

Just the way I make my calls.  Yours may differ.

Mark.

Agree with mjamja completely about edge balls.

Again it is hard to say without ultra slow motion analysis but slowing down the max 25% possible with YouTube,  It does look like the ball hit the edge almost 75% to 100% and also dropped as mjamja says. Therefrore it is Timo Boll's point IMO.

It was too early in the match & so considering gamesmanship or cheating on the part of Ma Long is COMPLETELY out of the question,  I would think

Most sports are adding like 2 review requests per team per match or per half or something.  So for professional tabletennis events, it would make sense to add a video umpire & allow 2 review requests per player  (or doubles team) in 7 game matches or 1 review request per player (or doubles team) in 5 game matches.

For amateur event matches I do not know but I am sure someone can come up with a method such as like alternate possession in NCAA basketball but limited to say 2 calls per player per match  (otherwsie  I can tit for tat every point if I think my opponent cheated) 

I think the dispute on an edgeball between Persson & Samsonov in some Olympics (2008 or 2012 ?) was more iffier I think

How does tennis or other racket sports handle disputes ?

 


Edited by alford - 05/16/2022 at 1:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by ClimbK2 ClimbK2 wrote:

Yes, Ma Long struck the ball wide of the table, so the ball could easily have hit the side of the table.  I looked several times at 9:46 of the linked recording, and couldn't tell for sure whether the ball caught the top edge or side.  


For a good point of ML ball must go minimum at table's level or higher after its jump.
If ML was inside the side line then the point should be for him and no one will discuss anything here.
It a question of professional view here. He is professional, he has pretty good eyesight I believe much
more better than ours and he could very well estimate where is the ball, where is the side line and how the ball jumped. But not sure what he tried to do there complaining for nothing.
Sometimes these things are making deep sign on psychical level in your opponent.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ClimbK2 ClimbK2 wrote:

Yes, Ma Long struck the ball wide of the table, so the ball could easily have hit the side of the table.  I looked several times at 9:46 of the linked recording, and couldn't tell for sure whether the ball caught the top edge or side.  


If ML was inside the side line then the point should be for him and no one will discuss anything here.


Not necessarily.
The ball could still could nick ONLY edge and drop COMPLETELY down. Very very rare of course but that is what happened here. That is why I said that there should be 2 allowed video review request per player. If they are so sure they want to contest the umpire ruling and waste a call this early in the match, by all means go ahead.
  


Edited by alford - 05/16/2022 at 1:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

But not sure what he tried to do there complaining for nothing.




It seems like you had a much better view, angle, and feel than Ma Long on where that ball is going.

From a psychical point of view, I think he will argue for the point that he thinks he deserve.
I don't think he will argue for the sake of psychical advantage.

I think this is becoming too psychical focused now.



Edited by ZApenholder - 05/16/2022 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by alford alford wrote:

Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

The picture does not prove anything, but he made the comment that the ball deflected downward as it hit on Timo's side.  For balls struck from outside the sideline I use the direction of deflection to determine whether the ball hit  the edge or the side of the table.  If there is any upward. deflection, then I consider it an edge.  If not then I consider it a side hit.  Not a perfect method as there are some weird shot trajectories for which it might not work, but these are extremely rare.

Just the way I make my calls.  Yours may differ.

Mark.

Agree with mjamja completely about edge balls.

Again it is hard to say without ultra slow motion analysis but slowing down the max 25% possible with YouTube,  It does look like the ball hit the edge almost 75% to 100% and also dropped as mjamja says. Therefrore it is Timo Boll's point IMO.

It was too early in the match & so considering gamesmanship or cheating on the part of Ma Long is COMPLETELY out of the question,  I would think

Most sports are adding like 2 review requests per team per match or per half or something.  So for professional tabletennis events, it would make sense to have a video umpire & add 2 review requests per player  (or doubles team) in 7 game matches or 1 review request per player (or doubles team) in 5 game matches.

I think the dispute on an edgeball between Persson & Samsonov in some Olympics (2008) was more iffier I think


For amateur event matches I do not know but i am sure someone can come up with a method such as like alternate possession in NCAA basketball but limited to say 2 calls per player per match  (otherwsie  I can tit for tat every call if I think my opponent cheated) 

How does tennis or other racket sports handle disputes ?

 


Thanks for your post, I do agree for the video reply, but at least Ma Long is the last one who was NOT familiar what happened there. As someone mentioned, he is pretty well equipped with the needed know-how about TT. So, what's the conclusion? 

I will share you something. Once at tournament my team mate played versus me at 1/2 final. He did probably the same, but from the opposite side. And he claimed he is the point winner, but he is barely familiar with the rules. I just leave the match and gave him the place in the final. Next day he said he was not right and asked for my apology.

Especially in these cases when happened in the begging of the match they are ruining more the psychics of the players. Why Timo gave ML the next point? Because his psychics was partly broken after Ma Long's behaviour. Why Timo didn't gave the next and the next and the next ball?
I think this point will go in books of tt some day.

Please do not write Ma Long had no any idea he is Out of the side line with all his body and his bat in the moment of the hit was also out and he didn't recognized that fact. It will sounds more than funny for him in both cases.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

But not sure what he tried to do there complaining for nothing.




It seems like you had a much better view, angle, and feel than Ma Long on where that ball is going.

From a psychical point of view, I think he will argue for the point that he thinks he deserve.
I don't think he will argue for the sake of psychical advantage.

I think this is becoming too psychical focused now.



Please. The behaviour of ML has nothing common with me as part of the problem. I will never do such a thing. First of all, you are trying to tell me ML didn't recognize he was with all his body out of the side line and also his bat with the ball in the moment of the contact? Second - he didn't see the ball just dropped?
Come on....

Edit: Even Timo shown him ball just dropped, see his body language on Reply. But for me it sounds funny after all.
If play with ML and there are two skilled umpires and I need to explain him where the ball gone I will surely leave the table. If I haven't seen that point I shouldn't believe it happened.

Yes you are right, these things are psychical tactics, probably. I can not be sure what exactly ML wanted after all. That's my question here. There are two points of view:
1/Lack of knowledge
2/Action on purpose

I go for number 2.


Edited by kolevtt - 05/16/2022 at 2:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

But not sure what he tried to do there complaining for nothing.




It seems like you had a much better view, angle, and feel than Ma Long on where that ball is going.

From a psychical point of view, I think he will argue for the point that he thinks he deserve.
I don't think he will argue for the sake of psychical advantage.

I think this is becoming too psychical focused now.



Please. The behaviour of ML has nothing common with me as part of the problem. I will never do such a thing. First of all, you are trying to tell me ML didn't recognize he was with all his body out of the side line and also his bat with the ball in the moment of the contact? Second - he didn't see the ball just dropped?
Come on....


Do you think Ma Long will know where he is standing before, during and after hitting the ball, and where the line is?
If you have played table tennis in some form of fast level and in the moment (and not watching video replays 100 times), then ask yourself if he knew or not.

Let me tell you a story. When I'm playing, I move with feeling, not with my eyes.
I pivot when the feeling is right and some how, I will adjust to cross court or down the line with my feeling (I don't think about it). How - I don't know, I guess it is just like dreaming.
So if you asked me questions like you are asking about Ma Long, my answer will be, I didn't know that.

However, what I believe in What he believed in, was edge ball.
Ma Long is one of the sportmanship players out there for a decade +. He could be wrong, but I won't be calling him for not knowing the rule. Plus, what rule are you  talking about? which is this rule? There is no rule in the ITTF Handbook on how the ball can or cannot hit the edge.

The only way to tell for sure is technology.
And from a players point of view, its feeling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

But not sure what he tried to do there complaining for nothing.




It seems like you had a much better view, angle, and feel than Ma Long on where that ball is going.

From a psychical point of view, I think he will argue for the point that he thinks he deserve.
I don't think he will argue for the sake of psychical advantage.

I think this is becoming too psychical focused now.



Please. The behaviour of ML has nothing common with me as part of the problem. I will never do such a thing. First of all, you are trying to tell me ML didn't recognize he was with all his body out of the side line and also his bat with the ball in the moment of the contact? Second - he didn't see the ball just dropped?
Come on....


Do you think Ma Long will know where he is standing before, during and after hitting the ball, and where the line is?
If you have played table tennis in some form of fast level and in the moment (and not watching video replays 100 times), then ask yourself if he knew or not.

Let me tell you a story. When I'm playing, I move with feeling, not with my eyes.
I pivot when the feeling is right and some how, I will adjust to cross court or down the line with my feeling (I don't think about it). How - I don't know, I guess it is just like dreaming.
So if you asked me questions like you are asking about Ma Long, my answer will be, I didn't know that.

However, what I believe in What he believed in, was edge ball.
Ma Long is one of the sportmanship players out there for a decade +. He could be wrong, but I won't be calling him for not knowing the rule. Plus, what rule are you  talking about? which is this rule? There is no rule in the ITTF Handbook on how the ball can or cannot hit the edge.

The only way to tell for sure is technology.
And from a players point of view, its feeling.


Thanks for that comment. Very good point you mentioned here.
Player during moving didn't feel where is he exactly. But maybe you mean player on lower level?
Because I think after these 29378910238728190238473289034847329034873290 hours in the hall,
Ma Long pretty well know where is his body according to the table. And during the hit, his eyes are focused on the ball. Do you think he didn't recognize he was all out with the ball and bat from the side line? At least here we are talking for a loop versus pushed ball, not counterlooping.
According all these facts I mentioned (or you think ML can't recognize there are about one racket space between his bat and sideline) with your help - do you still think his behaviour was not in purpose? Of course everyone wants to win, but I don't think this is the way to do. Especially on that level.
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